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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather window?
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Thread: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather window? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-16-2012 07:46 AM
souljour2000
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

There are arguably few "weather windows" In Florida or further up the east coast from end of May to November...actually there are but they just arent' three days or longer..they are measured in hours...I say this because there is 30-50 % chance of t-storms most days and if your not ready they can be problematic...with a late afternoon t-storm outflow you can suddenly have a 180 degree wind change and have 40 knots of wind bearing down on you if your not expecting it...makes for some excitement if you have alot of canvas up when one of these "walls of wind" hit you...especially since often the sun will still be shining and the clouds the wind flowed down from still far away in the distance...
So in these areas of coastal gulf/atlantic from late spring through much of autumn....effectively your "window" is from about 10 pm at night till 1 pm the next day....15 hours or so...bigger heavier boats or experienced crews will not likely be deterred by these t-storms but smaller craft and less-seasoned crews should be fairly cautious with these storms certainly...
04-16-2012 05:47 AM
Jgbrown
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
Hate to intrude on your self-absorption bubble, snowflake, but MY generation heard exactly the same message... in 1986.
When interest rates on student loans were 14-18%.
and the average annual salary was $30 000.

Yes, you need a degree today, but you don't need to take out a loan to pay for it. Take 7 years to get a 4 year degree, pick up a trade in the meantime to pay for it and carry you through the job search after getting the degree, and you will still be ahead of your peers, since you will actually be able to afford to do the things that you all dreamt about doing before you turned 30.


While web developers are watching their job prospects disappear as the jobs get outsourced, they still need to be able to take a dump, which is why plumbers are making $100K.

BTDT. I'm not new to this game. I've been working since I was 14. Started as a woodturner, running my own production shop the next year. Mostly heavy industrial, with the health problems, side effects and scars to prove it. I've been in university for the past 4 years, another few and I'll be done. The trade you mention? Well that'd be great, but first you'll need a few years with a decent company to get the apprenticeship so you can go to school to get certified so you make more than 10$/hr, and have a little bit left for savings... Except they gutted the apprenticeship system. For a heavy equipment operator certification you since it's private, which means no student loans to cover it, which means you need 15k to take the course to maybe get into the trade after. I have a friend who did that. He got the 15k together at 22, did the trade school for a year, after a couple years he moved up to a pay grade where he could afford to save university, so long as the courses were in the evening.
With part time school, he should be done at university when he's in his mid 30s, but then he's too old for most companies to want a fresh bachelors degree when they can get someone younger with the same papers.
A good salary for a university aged person outside of school is 30k today. Most places won't hire anyone in university, part time or not, schedules rotate too often, and they don't have any interest in someone who might need to keep the same day off each week for courses.

As I said, I went in eyes open for student debt, until I landed this job, I fully expected to spend the majority of my life paying for my degree. I knew I was getting fed a **** sandwich. It was important to my parents so I held my nose and ate it, and I won't be bailing on my loans. Not that you can in Canada since bankruptcy doesn't affect them, only death. One of the benefits of eating one **** sandwich, is you can tell when someone's handing you another one, and I'm not biting on the nobility of paying money into a debt that you'll never pay down. I'm going to pay mine off, but I'm lucky. There but for the grace of god go I as the saying goes.
We are heavily indoctrinated into from early grade school, and then some people got a rude surprise figuring out it wasn't true. Why should you expect a student to honor their promise, when what they were told they'd get in return for the years of debt was a lie? When people with any sort of power and influence regularly bail on commitments, with the great example of banks etc to look up to.


100k a year for a plumber means union job, which means they were one of the lucky few to land an apprenticeship, then get enough years on the job to get the seniority up. Almost all well paying jobs hiring freezes on, if not you still need to know somebody already in.

Here 32 hours a week at 10$/hr after tax is much more likely, subject to your company's requirements of course. That'll fluctuate from 20-40 hours a week as needed, and you can't have a second job, because you need to keep 7 days, and 18 hours a day open to account for schedule changes. If you are lucky you might get an understanding supervisor who will get you a static schedule once you've got enough time in, then you can add a second job.
550$/month will get you a basic room in someone's basement(with the mold and pest issues that come with, a decent room runs 700$+)
500$/month to make payments on the student loan(25 year payment schedule, assuming insurance rates don't go up since loans are prime+2.5%, )
90+$/month for the bus pass to get to work
1280$-1140 leaves you with under 5$/day to cover food, medical expenses, utilities, cell phone(some phone is required for most companies in case of shift changes), clothing.

You'll think I'm exaggerating, but that is the reality for a lot of university graduates here, so they end up sinking deeper in debt, when they had the carrot of a decent job held in front of them the whole way through, and then got dumped out. Any decent paying job will do a credit check too, as will any decent place to live... So they end up sinking farther every month, paying less than the interest that keeps adding on top.


I count myself lucky every day, I get 15$/hr after taxes now, 40hrs a week, for the foreseeable future, and only pay 500$ a month for my room, most of the time the rats are in the walls, not even inside my room(ants, mice and mold are another story).
I see my friends struggling, and I am aware of how incredibly fortunate I am. I can put a roof(floor) over my head, and food on the table more than once a day. That hasn't always been the case. I'll get a few hours sleep in between coughing episodes tonight, write a paper before class tommorow at 9am. Then I'll go to work and get home around midnight. Repeat the next day.

Don't tell me I don't know what it means to work for what I've got. I have shed enough blood, cursed my shaking hands enough times while working ill, hungry, or with broken ribs I couldn't afford to take time off for, spent months running on no sleep from back injuries and being unable to sleep since lying down means my lungs fill up again. I've coughed up enough blood, dust and oil to know what it took to get me here, where I can afford to pay my tuition and even consider buying a boat to live on now.
I am incredibly lucky, I've finally landed a nice, safe job. Doesn't mean I don't see what it cost me to get here.
04-12-2012 05:46 PM
TQA
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
Interesting Jon. I mean, is there any true "window" though? How many days were you out past the prediction before the prediction turned out to be wrong? Is a forecast good for at least 48 hours? 24? none?
You need to learn to read the synoptic charts and learn local weather patterns.

In some situations the weather is very predictable for 3 to 5 days and the reliability of a forecast nears 100%

In others say where you have strong instability, sea temps above 83 degrees and weak pressure gradients the weather is very unpredictable even for 12 hours.

I learned my weather lore flying hang gliders and the book I relied on was written by Chapman [ I think - it was a while ago ]
04-12-2012 01:08 PM
Chadfunk48
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Don't worry Carbon, I think they were still attached to the cohones that didn't come back. So they may be lost, but they are lost WITH their cohones, And isn't that what's really important?
04-12-2012 12:21 PM
CarbonSink62
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
Those guys had cohones man...

and a very high percentage never came back...
They lost their cohones!!

I may never sail again.
04-12-2012 12:13 PM
peterchech
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris12345 View Post
Well, this is all relative to your need of (perceived) safety.
The boat you have is probably about as seaworthy as the Santa Maria was. Maybe even a bit more.
The one that ran aground?



Internal ballast, leaky wooden construction, nothing close to a flush deck, not much of a keel and nothing like an effectively shaped rudder, no drogue or sea anchor invented yet...

Those guys had cohones man...

and a very high percentage never came back...
04-12-2012 11:35 AM
peterchech
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
OK, I'll bite...

What's a "Weather Window"? One of those clear things the weatherguessers rarely seem to look through to see what's going on outside, perhaps?

Chris Parker is about as good as there is when it comes to forecasting East coast/Western North Atlantic marine weather... Late last week, he gave the green light to cruisers heading north along the SE coast, and all the forecast models and prognostications seemed to agree... Fairly benign SW flow, interrupted by "a series of weak reinforcing dry cold fronts" - in other words, a bit of "frustrating" sailing conditions as winds clocked thru 360 degrees with the passage of these fronts, but no big deal... No squalls associated with these passages, winds in the 15-20 knot range, max, and the breeze retuning to light to moderate SW quickly thereafter...

I ran out of Sapelo Sound late Sunday morning, beautiful sailing wing & wing thru the afternoon... By the time Bubba Watson was putting on his very well deserved Green Jacket Sunday night, the breeze was a steady 25, and the seas had built quickly, in the steep confusion typically found in the shoal waters off the Georgia/S Carolina coast...

The first of these "Weak reinforcing fronts" came thru early Monday morning, and offered some decent, if not pretty sporty sailing, for as long as it blew NW... Well, that lasted for about an hour... Then it came straight NE, at a solid 25-30... Seas now built quickly in an opposition train to what had developed overnight out of the SW, and to describe the conditions as a washing machine would still be an understatement...

I was about 15 miles off Charleston, making little towards my destination on either tack, and getting beat up pretty good in the bargain. So, I parked it for about 6 hours, got some rest, and resumed sailing when it came SE, and then SW… By the time I approached Frying Pan Shoals yesterday morning, it had been blowing pretty good all night, and the seas were up once again… Another front came thru, wind came NW, then died… motored for about an hour, wind building again from the SW, quickly back up to 25…

By the time I approached Beaufort Inlet about 2300, conditions had gotten pretty sporty, breeze pretty steady between 25-30… Good news was, I was arriving on a flood tide, I don’t even want to think what the seas there would have been like on the ebb… Bad news was, I was arriving at precisely the passage of yet another of these “weak reinforcing cold fronts”… This one did contain squall activity, lots of lightning off to the NW, and occasional gusts to 40… I poured myself a VERY tall Manhattan after the hook went down off Beaufort just after midnight, and I’ve spent a good part of the day today putting the boat back together, and licking my wounds… The crew of a Hylas 49 that arrived shortly before me sounded fairly shaken by their ordeal, and I expect the guy might have some trouble convincing his wife the next time around, to jump outside again on the promise of a good “Weather Window”…

Two points to all this… first, the notion of a weather window is merely a concept, nothing more… I and others were simply making a coastal passage, never more than about 30 miles offshore… But, I’m sure glad I didn’t have to deal with either the conditions I encountered off Charleston on Monday, or approaching Beaufort last night, in a boat like a Hunter 25…

Sure, you can go places with that boat, no doubt about it… But I’d suggest as a general rule of thumb, you’d want to stay within sight of land… The exception might be crossing over to the Bahamas, that could certainly be doable… I think TQA has it exactly right, venturing much beyond the Bahamas in such a boat, probably not a very good idea…

Only one way to find out, of course – get out there and give it a whirl , and ultimately make your OWN decision as to the suitability of your boat for what you have in mind…
Interesting Jon. I mean, is there any true "window" though? How many days were you out past the prediction before the prediction turned out to be wrong? Is a forecast good for at least 48 hours? 24? none?
04-11-2012 08:04 PM
souljour2000
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Great Post as usual Jon...
In a Hunter 25...I would only do Bahamas or Tortugas or small jumps after May or so...over-niters though... and be somewhere protected by 1pm or so the next day....
By mid-May,. South Florida/Bahamas is fairly free of strong Northerly winds from cold fronts and strong SW flows that arrive before them...and by late May the area is nearing the season where you'll see puffy little clouds in the mornings building into afternoon t-storms. Wth a late evening departure after 10 pm the night before (after the t-storm threat is over) from a place like N Key Largo...you could make the 44 miles overnite to say...Bimini...and be anchored in Bimini with some protection by early afternoon "T-time"... a.k.a thunderstorm-time...just some thoughts...but getting a solid base of coastal experience before heading offshore is invaluable....and IMHO recommended highly if you haven't already...
04-11-2012 05:04 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
btw, can somebody please get this thread back on topic?
OK, I'll bite...

What's a "Weather Window"? One of those clear things the weatherguessers rarely seem to look through to see what's going on outside, perhaps?

Chris Parker is about as good as there is when it comes to forecasting East coast/Western North Atlantic marine weather... Late last week, he gave the green light to cruisers heading north along the SE coast, and all the forecast models and prognostications seemed to agree... Fairly benign SW flow, interrupted by "a series of weak reinforcing dry cold fronts" - in other words, a bit of "frustrating" sailing conditions as winds clocked thru 360 degrees with the passage of these fronts, but no big deal... No squalls associated with these passages, winds in the 15-20 knot range, max, and the breeze retuning to light to moderate SW quickly thereafter...

I ran out of Sapelo Sound late Sunday morning, beautiful sailing wing & wing thru the afternoon... By the time Bubba Watson was putting on his very well deserved Green Jacket Sunday night, the breeze was a steady 25, and the seas had built quickly, in the steep confusion typically found in the shoal waters off the Georgia/S Carolina coast...

The first of these "Weak reinforcing fronts" came thru early Monday morning, and offered some decent, if not pretty sporty sailing, for as long as it blew NW... Well, that lasted for about an hour... Then it came straight NE, at a solid 25-30... Seas now built quickly in an opposition train to what had developed overnight out of the SW, and to describe the conditions as a washing machine would still be an understatement...

I was about 15 miles off Charleston, making little towards my destination on either tack, and getting beat up pretty good in the bargain. So, I parked it for about 6 hours, got some rest, and resumed sailing when it came SE, and then SW… By the time I approached Frying Pan Shoals yesterday morning, it had been blowing pretty good all night, and the seas were up once again… Another front came thru, wind came NW, then died… motored for about an hour, wind building again from the SW, quickly back up to 25…

By the time I approached Beaufort Inlet about 2300, conditions had gotten pretty sporty, breeze pretty steady between 25-30… Good news was, I was arriving on a flood tide, I don’t even want to think what the seas there would have been like on the ebb… Bad news was, I was arriving at precisely the passage of yet another of these “weak reinforcing cold fronts”… This one did contain squall activity, lots of lightning off to the NW, and occasional gusts to 40… I poured myself a VERY tall Manhattan after the hook went down off Beaufort just after midnight, and I’ve spent a good part of the day today putting the boat back together, and licking my wounds… The crew of a Hylas 49 that arrived shortly before me sounded fairly shaken by their ordeal, and I expect the guy might have some trouble convincing his wife the next time around, to jump outside again on the promise of a good “Weather Window”…

Two points to all this… first, the notion of a weather window is merely a concept, nothing more… I and others were simply making a coastal passage, never more than about 30 miles offshore… But, I’m sure glad I didn’t have to deal with either the conditions I encountered off Charleston on Monday, or approaching Beaufort last night, in a boat like a Hunter 25…

Sure, you can go places with that boat, no doubt about it… But I’d suggest as a general rule of thumb, you’d want to stay within sight of land… The exception might be crossing over to the Bahamas, that could certainly be doable… I think TQA has it exactly right, venturing much beyond the Bahamas in such a boat, probably not a very good idea…

Only one way to find out, of course – get out there and give it a whirl , and ultimately make your OWN decision as to the suitability of your boat for what you have in mind…
04-11-2012 04:32 PM
night0wl
Re: Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
What is "I-65"? And what is the "milk run"?
Both of these are terms that reference taking advantage of global wind patterns.

I-65 vs the Thorny Path are explained well on this page:
Indigo Moon - Offshore Passage to BVI

Milk Run is basically a term that references taking advantage of prevailing winds when sailing....meaning no beating/no bashing.
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