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bury the rails...wait a minute

8K views 22 replies 20 participants last post by  DivingOtter 
#1 ·
This scares me! How safe is it? Is there a formula to calculate when your mast might touch down? Is there a safe degree to heel your boat to?
I am just trying to find comfort with a husband who loves to sail fast and he says fun! Our boat is a 32' Iona
 
#2 ·
In normal conditions (not storm or heavy sea state conditions) your boat will not capsize. And unless you are carrying a spinnaker in a big breeze, a broach or knockdown is very unlikely to happen as well. Relax and enjoy the ride. Your boat will take care of you.
 
#3 ·
Remember a couple of things that will keep the boat from going over: As the boat gets to extreem angles of heel there is less, and less sail area facing the wind. (Down to zero when the mast is in the water). And also, as the boat heels the effectiveness of the keel increases, with the longest lever arm being with the boat is knocked down. The thing that made me more comfortable with heel, is to know we have control. Take control of the traveler, or mainsheet on a frisky run to weather (hubby can stay at the helm). Play with it until you are convinced you have control over heel, then oversheet a bit to increase heel.
 
#4 ·
Unless you have a boat that's designed to sail faster that way (i.e., long overhangs), you're not sailing at your best by "burying the rails" no matter how macho it seems. Others are right that you're in no danger, so if you like it that way (and you like fighting unnecessary weather helm), so be it.

You want as much of your sail exposed to the wind as possible and by burying the rails, you reduce that (because you are listing to leeward, thus spilling the wind from the top of your main). The boat will be easier to handle, more comfortable and go just as fast, or faster, if you let down the traveler, put a reef in or whatever else it takes to keep the boat upright.
 
#5 ·
Heeling is safer for the boat than you think it is for you.

20 degrees is sporty, 30 is scary, 40 is downright religious-experience, but the boat will recover. It's almost impossible to capsize a keelboat like yours without the assistance of a monster wave that turns it over.

With wind as the only force, the boat reaches a point where the wind actually begins to spill of the tops of the sails, so heeling can't increase much more. And the only reason you got that steep is by not having eased main, then jib, earlier.

"Death rolls" with spinnaker up in heavy air, can put the mast over near the water, but only because the spin is by then dragging in the water. This is not typical for cruising folks. even then, the boat recovers either on its own or because someone released or cut the spin halyard.

So the boat will recover--but will the humans? yes, if they hang on. Stay on the high side, let the sails out, and the boat will thank you. It *wants* to be vertical. Even in winds over 100 knots (last years Mackinac race during a horrible squall for example) people hung on to their near-horizontal boats while sails shredded, and once wind eased the boats came back up.

Hope this helps. Not trying to scare you.

Implicit in all this is you closed the hatches and cockpit lockers. If water gets into the hull in mass quantities, what i said is inoperative
 
#6 ·
Husband is doing it "wrong"

As others have mentioned, "burying the rail" or extremely heel sailing is very inefficient sailing and often "slow" sailing. Most boats are designed to sail fastest form 10 to 20 deg heel. Higher heel angles induce excessive drag and will typically (on a properly designed boat) cause the boat to round up into the wind. To counter this design aspect, to continue to sail straight at high heel angles requires counter effort on the rudder to steer back downwind. If you need more than a few degrees of rudder angle to do this, your rudder is actually acting as a brake and slowing the boat down. This is called weather helm as others have mentioned. A little weather helm is good, too much is bad.

To achieve a good balance of speed and control, as others have mentioned, work the traveler and main sheet to achieve a more balanced helm. With the sail well trimmed at closehaul, drop the traveler until the boat flattens out. If the traveler can't get you there, let out the sheet, if that can't get you there, reduce sail area (reef).

While it is fun once in awhile to "bury the rail", it is not fast and is actually pretty stressful on the rig and rudder.

DrB
 
#8 ·
Re: Husband is doing it "wrong"

While it is fun once in awhile to "bury the rail", it is not fast and is actually pretty stressful on the rig and rudder.

DrB
This.

I think is where your husband is coming from. He is confusing the adrenelin from "fun" with going fast.

A keelboat like yours will only heel over so far before the sails spill wind, and the keel's moment is too great to overcome. Barring some other event like large wave action, or a spinnaker, you'll be safe even if a bit uncomfortable.

If he wants a quick rush...sure hang on and let him "bury the rail". But if he wants to go fast, he'd be better off watching his telltales and trimming properly than watching the water come over the leeward rail.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Boats sailing around carrying too much sail and heeling excessively just scream "Look At ME! I don"t know how to SAIL!"

Every boat has it's magic number when it comes to heel angle, but typically you want to avoid exceeding 15-20 degrees.

So tell your husband to straighten up and sail right!;)
 
#9 ·
As others have said too much heel will slow down your boat. But there's always that occasional gust that will put the rail in the water with no danger. I was ancored in Boot Key Harbor, Florida Keys with many other boats when a waterspout roared through the ancorage. As it hit each sailboat, the boat was knocked horizontal, then poped up immediately after it passed. The harbor was soon littered with loose stuff from the decks but no harm was done to any boats or crew. I was below when I was hit, and had to dodge flying kitchen knives ( I was prepairing supper). Exciting for sure but no great danger.
 
#11 ·
It also depends on the condition of the boat.
If the standing rigging is 20+ years old. The chain plates 20+ years and the running rigging looking sad. Deck a little squishy, hull deck joint has a few openings and the bulk head tabbing adrift. Sails a little soft.

My favorite way to find out what needs fixing is to run it as hard as possible and see what breaks or leaks.
I always have the camera rolling.

PS. I always do this trick on other peoples boats.:)
It helps if their is a race so when something breaks you have an excuse.
 
#15 ·
I never found a good reason to bury the rails! Just never seemed to make a lot of sense, especially when you're looking at the knot-meter and realize that when the rail is buried you tend to lose speed. It not a macho thing, for me, either. Too much strain on everything, too many expensive items that could end up getting busted, and most of all, my loving wife of nearly a half-century would kick my a$$ when that first drop of water crossed above the rub-rail. ;)

Sailing is supposed to be fun--not a white knuckle ride.

Good Luck,

Gary :cool:
 
#16 ·
I explained everything previously said to my wife but she still didn't like it. My wife and I and our two young daughters often sailed together with my Dad. He knew it wasn't the most effective way to sail but he just loved to bury the rail and watch the kids squeal and see my wife dive for cover below. Kind of like smoking the tires, not necessarily good, but fun. He used to call me a whimp for wanting to reef our Coronado 25 in San Francisco Bay in the summer.

Paul T
 
#17 ·
Thanks everyone for helping me feel more comfortable with this. We have replaced everything on the outside, all rigging and parts that needed to be replaced. Our boat is 35 years old. The chain stays are in the fiberglass of the boat and seem to be fine. My husband has really never buried the rails like the photo. Loved the photo. Just Water splashing on the windows while I was inside. I need to get
comfortable by more sailing and learning..
 
#21 ·
The IONA 32 appears to be a "tender" boat due to it's SA/D of 15.6 and the Overall Length of 32 versus LWL of 24 and hull shape. Also for a boat this size, it is has a relatively light displacement of 8000 lb. With such a short waterline and displacement, it will lay over in wind more quickly (more tender) than other boats, but once it reaches a certain heel angle it will sail well. The IONA 32 appears to be a boat that requires a decent amount heel to sail well. My guess is that you will be closer to a heel angle of 20 deg (or more) for the magic AH! moment where the boat motion is rhythmic, smooth, and cutting through the waves and your sailing fast.

DrB
 
#19 · (Edited)
To be technical there is a stability equation if you really want to know when you'll pass the point of no return. The bigger tonnage captains licences are all about stability. GM, TRANSVERSE META CENTER, FREE SURFACE EQUATOINS, CENTER OF BOYANCY. It's scary how many sailors don't know that stuff. Unless your pointing high and really trying to make an important mark there is no reason to bury your rails.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Capsize Formula

Boats have point of vanishing stability....going....going....

Although it is a lot of fun to go for miles with the rail in the water, and I tend to do it just for the sheer exhilaration, it is really not the most efficient way to get where you're going.
 
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