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Yellow ground safety wire

6K views 28 replies 13 participants last post by  Seaduction 
#1 ·
So reading Don Casey, he had me convinced that I needed to switch to using yellow for ground. This caused me substantial irritation, particularly as West Marine has far more ground stuff in black than in yellow, and really a fairly limited selection of "safety wire" compared to the normal stuff. And of course, pretty much every piece of DC electronics I've seen anywhere uses black for ground. And my existing wiring uses black for ground.

Then I read this:

Q. Did ABYC make a rule change that changed the color of the DC negative wire from BLACK to YELLOW?

A. No. Included in E-9 DC Electrical Systems on Boats since 1996 has been the OPTION of using YELLOW as an alternate color for the DC negative lead. If there is an AC system installed on the boat then the BLACK wire can also be the ungrounded (hot) current carrying conductor. An increasing number of builders are using YELLOW as the alternative to black in the DC conductor to avoid confusion. Confusion, I might add, that could result in a very bad situation when the AC hot is confused with the DC negative.
Honestly, I think it makes more sense to recolor hot, since it's the dangerous one. But more it would probably be much more reasonable and much more effective to simply require that the hot wire be bundled exclusively with AC conductors (which I think is the case) and that they all be prominently tagged as being AC near all terminals, and perhaps at periodic lengths along the run.

The upshot is that I'm thinking of totally disregarding this yellow ground thing, and using black like a normal person. In fact, I think I'm going to redo a yellow length of wire I did yesterday in black.

Thoughts?
 
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#3 ·
And even today in the current E-11 standards it is yellow OR black.. On boats with black DC neg I stick with it. On boats with yellow DC neg I stick with it..

One safe way to understand AC is to always use AC color coded triplex wire (white, green black)... Anyone touching AC or DC on a boat should be able to tell the difference between AC hot and DC neg..
 
#4 ·
Hear, hear, Mainesail! Use three conductor marine grade wiring for AC, always. Use two conductor or a pair of twisted single conductor marine grade wires for DC, always. That way it is always clear what you are seeing.
 
#7 ·
IT was easy to go with yellow when i rewired the boat even with no AC system

That being said the color change was STUPID as the CE did away with RED/BLACK DC and went with BLUE/BROWN on land based DC boxes a LONG time ago so WHY not just have ONE color code ?
 
#8 ·
Maine Sail:903369 said:
And even today in the current E-11 standards it is yellow OR black.. On boats with black DC neg I stick with it. On boats with yellow DC neg I stick with it..

One safe way to understand AC is to always use AC color coded triplex wire (white, green black)... Anyone touching AC or DC on a boat should be able to tell the difference between AC hot and DC neg..
LOL, and if all else fails, use the tongue test.
 
#9 ·
I can see why they did the change as when you use 3 -Phase AC you run out of colors real fast. Using red/Black for DC & white/Black for AC works, as you should never see 1 without the other. High voltage DC is orange.

I'm not sure why not use red/green for DC as minus is usually ground. AC ground is now yellow/green striped, (to comply with euro standards),

Which brings to mind how this got messed up to begin with, each side has repeatedly tried to use electrical codes to get a trade advantage, by making the other groups colors used illegal, and both have refused to adjust color codes to match.

If the UN really wanted to do something usefull, they could mandate a world standard for wiring codes, and electrical power, and save the world trillions of dollars in lost productivity caused by varying electrical codes, (and TV transmissions, and consumer products, phones, etc...). Yes, in each case one of the countries that refused to comply will have to spend billions to retool, but the long term savings, and increased safety will be worth it.
 
#10 · (Edited)
WARNING FOR NON-US CITIZENS: Ignore everything you read in this thread.

If you're looking for wire-colour information, it isn't here. (Just because they can't get their wire colours right, doesn't mean the rest of the world can't either. ;))

If the UN really wanted to do something usefull, they could mandate a world standard for wiring codes, and electrical power, and save the world trillions of dollars in lost productivity caused by varying electrical codes, (and TV transmissions, and consumer products, phones, etc...). Yes, in each case one of the countries that refused to comply will have to spend billions to retool, but the long term savings, and increased safety will be worth it.
Guess what? Surprise!!! There already IS a world standard on colour codes and electrical power and significant progress on the others you mention... (well, almost - there's been some kick-back of a few minor bits from within the Eurozone). It's produced by the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) - and, to date, flatly ignored by the Good 'Ol US of A...

..but eventually you'll come kicking and screaming into line with the rest of the planet. :D
 
#17 ·
"I needed to switch to using yellow for ground. This caused me substantial irritation, particularly as West Marine has far more ground stuff in black than in yellow,"

No, stop and think about it for a minute. The "safety" problem is that conventional black wires, wires not cables, could be DC grounds, DC negatives, or AC hots, and you've got no way to tell which is which by looking at it.

That's obviously not going to be the case with ground CABLES on a boat, as you're just not going to find individual AC *cables* in boat wiring. Maybe on ships, but not on recreational boats.

So if the stuff you're looking at in the chandlery is battery cables, forget about yellow, the black is perfectly good and safe.

When it comes to wires in a loom or harness or going to panel--that's something else again. (Usually "wire" means 10AWG or thinner, while "cable" means 8AWG or thicker.) If you see a budle of colored wires, 12-14AWG, and one of them is black...you have no idea what it is. If there's AC on the boat, it could very well be an AC hot line. That's why changing to red+yellow on new DC wiring becomes useful. Wiring, not cabling.
 
#18 ·
Usually "wire" means 10AWG or thinner, while "cable" means 8AWG or thicker.
A wire is a single conductor. A cable is a number of individually insulated conductors tied together or (more commonly) covered with an additional layer of insulator. The genesis of "cable" is many components, thus mechanical cables (most wire rope counts), optical cables (multiple fibers in a sheath), and electrical cables (as above).

Open up your computer and you'll find ribbon cables with 10s of conductors only 24 AWG or smaller. The 12 or 14 AWG cables run all through your house or boat with hot, neutral, and ground for 117 VAC (in the US) are, well, cables. A cable is a collection of wires (electrically) and has nothing to do with size.
 
#19 ·
"A wire is a single conductor. "
That's a different use and meaning of the word. Or have you never bought "stranded wire" as opposed to "solid wire" ?

Auto stores, battery stores, hardware stores...and it isn't just a New England thing. Ask for "cable" and they reach for the heavy stuff. Ask for wire, and they reach for different spools. Maybe that's wrong and corrupt but then again...so are so many fun things.
 
#20 ·
Gentlemen. I'm a novice at this stuff (and tomorrow after I take the ham test I'll be on the path to official geekdom), so can you help me out here?

I downloaded the ABYC electrical standards. But it appears that the ABYC standards differ from the rest of the US standards? Am I correct? And, it appears that the two of you are using the same name for two different things (i.e., wire). Confusing. Is this like the age-old line vs. rope argument?

Is there a single resource that you can recommend that I add to my boating library?
 
#24 ·
I downloaded the ABYC electrical standards. But it appears that the ABYC standards differ from the rest of the US standards? Am I correct? And, it appears that the two of you are using the same name for two different things (i.e., wire). Confusing. Is this like the age-old line vs. rope argument?
The colloquial "cable" is a British leftover rarely used in North America to describe "wire". Cable is generally manufactured by combining twisted pairs of metal wire, IE winch cable, battery cable etc. Wire usually is either a single wire ore twisted combination of wire. Big or small is not the issue as there exists 1" wire and 1/32" cable. Over the years the word basically means the same thing; EG loggers in the PNW still say they're going to string a haulback wire to the backside of the show, when in fact it's quite a large cable.

Is there a single resource that you can recommend that I add to my boating library?
You can purchase the manual for $65, but is just more ballast. Here's the basics.
ABYC Wiring Standards
 
#21 ·
I tend towards Dave's explaination of wire vs cable. But, that comes from years of wiring electical controls on machinery.

Multistrand wire is still a single conductor. All of the strands in the wire are not insulated from each other, therefore acting as a single conductor.

Donna, in the end you can follow ABYC standards and be just fine for your boat wiring projects. Keep in mind if you are rewiring the manufacturer or PO may not have followed any standard or one of thier own design. As mentioned earlier in this thread label everything. If you are not sure what a wire does, ring it out (use your multimeter to test for continuity; this usually has an audible tone when it is part of the same circut).
 
#22 ·
Thanks nickmerc.

I like to have a reference I can reach for when I'm not online and also something I can pass on to my students. I feel like I'm moving onto the next step on the ladder and I'm starting to know just enough to ask semi-coherent questions.
 
#23 ·
"Is this like the age-old line vs. rope argument?"
You've probably hit the nail on the head with that one.

There are all sorts of standards. We know a North Wind blows from the north, but what's a "northerly" wind? One that is blowing TO or FROM the north? Well, that depends on who you ask. Hell, you can't even get boat electricians to agree on whether fittings on a boat should be bonded, or connected to a ground bus, or simply isolated. Depends on whether their goal is to prevent galvanic problems, fool lightning, or sell new parts apparently.

The bottom line is often "what's in stock?" and "what can I afford?" and if "proper" wiring schemes call for ten colors of wire but your budget says you only need 5 spools...compromises get made. As a recreational boater, you don't have to comply with the same specs as commercial builders. And if you use plenty of wire tags and leave schematics, even pencil drawn ones, the colors aren't quite as critical.
 
#26 ·
I hear ya.

I teach an auxiliary classroom course. Very basic stuff. But there is usually one or two who have done their research and know what type of sailing they eventually want to do so when they read our book, they have more advanced questions. If I can't answer it myself to the depth they need, I like to point them to a source. I keep a notebook with the info I gather that I can refer to when the time comes.

Plus, I'm starting to think about the Next Boat so this is all interesting to me regardless.
 
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