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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation > Close call! Who had rights?
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Thread: Close call! Who had rights? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-07-2013 06:51 PM
jackdale
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
That's what I thought (see my previous post.) If I can be proven wrong I'll gladly stand corrected and chalk it up as a learning opportunity. But CapnBill, if you can point me to something in writing to confirm what we both said, I'd appreciate it.

And David, thanks for the heads-up on that book, looks like the kind of thing I'd like.
CaptTom

I gave you some expert views in this post.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seaman...tml#post941470

Another

Quote:
Vessels using only their sails for propulsion are included, even though they may be fitted with an engine. Operation of the engine to generate electricity or to heat water, for example, does not make the sailing vessel a power-driven vessel, so long as the propeller (or paddle wheel) is not engaged. Rule 18 tells us what the responsibilities of sailing vessels are with respect to other types of vessels, and Rule 12 does the same with respect to other sailing vessels.
http://navruleshandbook.com/Rule3.html

If my engine is running in neutral and I have to use the engine to avoid a collision, I will convert my sailing vessel to a power driven vessel by engaging the transmission. Then I will probably hit the throttle as well.
03-07-2013 05:44 PM
davidpm
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnBilll View Post
Under Rule 17 If the engine was running, and CAPABLE of attaching to a propeller, then you are a power driven vessel at the touch of a control. And therfore CAPABLE of maneuvering as one, and avoiding collision as one.
From a practical point of view if i'm in a motor boat and see a boat with sails up that presents a risk of collision I'm not likely to be able to see the stern.
If it has sails up I have to assume it is a sail boat.

Most boats do not pump cooling water over the front of the boat.
There is also the legal concept of the prudent mariner combined with the concept that if you are in doubt give way.

It would be a pretty tough sell to tell the judge that you held course against a sailboat with sails up because you thought they had their motor on.

Between sailboats the law specifically says that for the purpose of the rules the wind is deemed as coming from the side of the boat opposite from the side the boom is on even if you are in reality sailing by the lee.

If you look like a sailboat it is probably best to act like one.
If you look line you are on a port tack you should act like someone on a port tack.
03-07-2013 03:55 PM
CaptTom
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnBilll View Post
Under Rule 17 If the engine was running, and CAPABLE of attaching to a propeller, then you are a power driven vessel at the touch of a control. And therfore CAPABLE of maneuvering as one, and avoiding collision as one.

A "SAILING VESSEL" has no other means of maeuvering EXCEPT by wind in a reasonable amount of time to prevent a collision. (IE if it HAS an engine that is off, it will take several minutes to start, and warmup to engage prop, probably too late for collision).
That's what I thought (see my previous post.) If I can be proven wrong I'll gladly stand corrected and chalk it up as a learning opportunity. But CapnBill, if you can point me to something in writing to confirm what we both said, I'd appreciate it.

And David, thanks for the heads-up on that book, looks like the kind of thing I'd like.
03-07-2013 03:09 PM
davidpm
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

This book is very hard to get through but the main lesson is very clear.
If your boat is in a collision with another boat and your boat is not inside your garage, the chances are almost 100% that if an admiralty court gets involved you will be assigned some significant portion of the blame.

As you read decision after decision it is clear that the court figures that if two boats collide they both did something seriously wrong.

It is so hard to get a 100% judgement against the other party as to be practically impossible.

It may not seem fair to us but if you read the cases it is clear that if you get to see the judge it is just a question of how much you screwed up not if.


Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road: Craig H. Allen: 9781591140085: Amazon.com: Books Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road: Craig H. Allen: 9781591140085: Amazon.com: Books


03-07-2013 02:18 PM
denverd0n
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnBilll View Post
If you are in a collision, and your engine was running, and you didn't use it, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
Yes. It is well to remember that, unlike car accidents, maritime accidents almost ALWAYS end up with the blame being shared. That is because the one rule that over-rides all the others is, if you CAN avoid an accident, then you MUST! Just because you are the stand-on vessel doesn't mean that you can sail right into an accident and it will be the other guy's fault. You are going to get a significant portion of the blame if you had any opportunity to avoid the accident and you didn't take it.

And it wouldn't hurt to take this opportunity to remind everyone that you don't have "right of way" in any circumstances. That is a concept from driving, not maritime law. There is a "stand-on vessel" and there is a "give-way vessel," but BOTH bear responsibility to try to avoid an accident.
03-07-2013 01:38 PM
CapnBilll
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Sorry "Captain"; that is incorrect. If the transmission is not engaged, you are a sailing vessel.

Two from the Nautical Institute.





From a maritime lawyer




I also called the USCG. They were in agreement with those above.

Under Rule 17 If the engine was running, and CAPABLE of attaching to a propeller, then you are a power driven vessel at the touch of a control. And therfore CAPABLE of maneuvering as one, and avoiding collision as one.

A "SAILING VESSEL" has no other means of maeuvering EXCEPT by wind in a reasonable amount of time to prevent a collision. (IE if it HAS an engine that is off, it will take several minutes to start, and warmup to engage prop, probably too late for collision).

If you are in a collision, and your engine was running, and you didn't use it, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
01-03-2013 09:32 AM
smurphny
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I have seen the horn, pointing down, mounted on the mast at the second spreaders with a guard (not unlike a mast mounted radar). You could also mount one a either the top or bottom of a spreader.
Thanks Jack. That's a good idea if I can find one small enough to mount under a spreader. The one I use now is a horn type, much too large to mount anywhere high but I have seen small "automotive" looking horns that could possibly fit under a spreader. I wonder if they work as speakers that can accept sound input or just self-generated horns?

Found this smaller Newmar PA-30 horn that may fit right in under the radar or even close-in under a spreader. Will have to scope it out. Would really really like to have the horn and p.a. capability in one speaker. http://www.newmarpower.com/Phone-Com...mar-062708.pdf
01-03-2013 01:22 AM
jackdale
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by L124C View Post
The masthead, of course....NOW HEAR THIS!

Regarding 5 blasts, you all bring up good points. They made me think about a incident on my boat where I had a fairly experienced guest at the helm. I wasn't paying attention and he violated another boats Starboard tack rights. I first knew something had happened when the boats crossed and the other crew was yelling obscenities (after bearing off to avoid us). Defensively, I flipped them off, thinking surely my Helmsman couldn't have done anything wrong! Only to find out he had a brain freeze and didn't bother to ask for help. Two fine examples of the male ego gone awry within minutes!
In any event, had the other boat sounded 5 blasts, we could have avoided the whole situation. I understand all the blame rests squarely on my shoulders. Just saying the incident (and a potential collision, had my guy or the other crew panicked) could have been avoided had I been alerted earlier by the other crew.
We just yell - STARBOARD !!!!!!!!
01-03-2013 01:21 AM
jackdale
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
+1 on the VHF signaling function. I have an ICOM unit with that function and a horn that I can quickly clamp just outside the companionway. It can be used as a loudspeaker as well. Cannot find a good spot to permanently mount a horn where it will not potentially snag lines.
I have seen the horn, pointing down, mounted on the mast at the second spreaders with a guard (not unlike a mast mounted radar). You could also mount one a either the top or bottom of a spreader.
01-03-2013 01:03 AM
L124C
Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
+1 on the VHF signaling function. I have an ICOM unit with that function and a horn that I can quickly clamp just outside the companionway. It can be used as a loudspeaker as well. Cannot find a good spot to permanently mount a horn where it will not potentially snag lines.
The masthead, of course....NOW HEAR THIS!

Regarding 5 blasts, you all bring up good points. They made me think about a incident on my boat where I had a fairly experienced guest at the helm. I wasn't paying attention and he violated another boats Starboard tack rights. I first knew something had happened when the boats crossed and the other crew was yelling obscenities (after bearing off to avoid us). Defensively, I flipped them off, thinking surely my Helmsman couldn't have done anything wrong! Only to find out he had a brain freeze and didn't bother to ask for help. Two fine examples of the male ego gone awry within minutes!
In any event, had the other boat sounded 5 blasts, we could have avoided the whole situation. I understand all the blame rests squarely on my shoulders. Just saying the incident (and a potential collision, had my guy or the other crew panicked) could have been avoided had I been alerted earlier by the other crew.
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