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Opposition to liveaboards

41K views 272 replies 50 participants last post by  Ravenhawk 
#1 ·
I want to share something with you guys and I want to know IF you have ever experienced anything like this....We are New to the sailing world and love it....we chose to live aboard our boat for MANY reasons...well...we found this awesome Marina in Fernandina Beach that is run by the city......anyway...they told us the live aboard rate was going to go up $200 a month! Is there opposition to live aboards or is this an isolated case?
 
#32 ·
Dave,

My "footprint" at my marina is minimal and wouldn't justify the extra fees that you're talking about. I feel that this is the difference between a resort marina and a working yard like the one WnW and I stay at. I don't think you can directly compare the two environments.

I consume slightly more water than a non-liveaboard and less electricity than some non-liveaboards! How? Because the non-resident yacht owners keep their cabin A/C running year-round, to keep their cabins dry and mildew-free. I barely used my A/C in the summer, and I won't need much heat this winter.

I cook with alcohol and a 700 watt microwave oven. I use a laptop or my smartphone. My lights use less power and there are fewer of them. Trash pick-up for the marina is no more or less frequent than if none of us lived aboard. It's the same dumpster and we don't fill it up any more frequently. The school bus stop is at the head of the street, and it would still be the case even if none of us lived aboard. I believe that our water lines are going to be winterized and shutdown regardless of us liveaboards. If we want water in our tanks, we'll have to schlep it down to our boats.

I have consumed exactly "zero" staff time since I've moved in at the marina. My mates and I help each other out for the repairs we need. The crabbers and fishermen who use my marina cause more havoc on the facilities and bathhouse than the liveaboards do, and there are over 25 of us!

Conversely, if I lived aboard at a resort marina, I expect that I would consume more facilities and staff time than I do at my "yard" marina. I'd expect water year-round, club house access and services, etc, etc.
 
#52 · (Edited)
Dave,
(snippage) Because the non-resident yacht owners keep their cabin A/C running year-round, to keep their cabins dry and mildew-free. I barely used my A/C in the summer, and I won't need much heat this winter.
A/C? How many boats there have A/C? I've been aboard quite a few boats in my marina, have yet to see one with A/C. Of course, every slip is metered here, so that doesn't matter too much. Just wondering.

Trash pick-up for the marina is no more or less frequent than if none of us lived aboard. It's the same dumpster and we don't fill it up any more frequently.
They would reduce the pick-up frequency if there were no live-aboards.
 
#33 ·
My "footprint" at my marina is minimal and wouldn't justify the extra fees that you're talking about. I feel that this is the difference between a resort marina and a working yard like the one WnW and I stay at. I don't think you can directly compare the two environments.-BubbleheadMD
WnW's marina ( having been there a number of times) is more of a resort mariana than my club. It is one of the finest facilities I have ever been to, anywhere and IMHO outdoes HHNorth&South, Spring Cove, and Mears Marinas. It is also a working yard which allows that and has many of the Annapolis Boat brokers offices on the premisis.

I do appreciate the footprint of where you are, but do not think that is the norm for most of the liveaboards. Since you do not incur addition costs for services there would be no need for them to charge you extra.

Dave
 
#34 ·
Well, of course the ideal would be to have metered electric at the slips, even though it is more of a hassle for the marina staff, it's the most fair approach. Like Bubblehead, our marina has folks who don't live aboard, but leave the A/C running all season while the boat is unattended at the dock - why should they pay less electric than the guy who lives aboard, but is out cruising most of the summer? Because our boat is set up for cruising, we get most of our power from solar, while the weekenders' boats haven't invested in those systems. In our marina's case there is also a charterboat fleet that operates out of this marina. They are the KINGS of using staff time. Because they are vacationers and haven't learned the subtleties of the system, as opposed to the fulltime liveaboards, those charter folks generate copious amounts of trash. (A disproportionate amount of that is empty booze bottles, but that's a whole 'nother issue. They are on vacation, after all.) I think the point is that generalizations about which group uses resources, and how, are problematic.

On your other point, Dave, I'm actually agreeing with you - thereby showing the problems with communication by text without benefit of tone and body language. Of course, your club, and any other marine entity, should be able to determine for itself and set the amount of liveaboard slips, if any, that it feels appropriate for its character, infrastructure, and economics. What is weird is the situation LauderBoy described in San Diego, that there's a county-wide determination that all marinas in the county can support exactly 10% liveaboards, regardless of their differences in character, size, support structure, etc. I think those decisions should be left to the individual marina and their circumstances - 25%? 90%? None at all? The more so in San Diego, where winter isn't a factor given their nice weather year-round.
 
#35 ·
The liveaboard "debate" (for lack of a better word) is no different than most topics of discussion in that as long as everyone involved recognizes the validity of the "other side's" viewpoint, things tend to work themselves out.

It's funny how we tend to categorize the other side. Not picking on you, Joethecobbler, but I noticed in your last post that you have on-the-surface become that which you rail against. Going to a marina, expressing interest in dock space with no intention of moving there just to watch the owners/operators "grovel"? Really.....lol? I mean, if that's fun for you, that's fine but it's probably not fair to denigrate "those people" if you walk the same walk, so-to-speak. Again, not picking on you, but from the outside looking in, it seems like both sides of that equation has room for improvement.

To each their own I always say, as long as we recognize one side is no better/worse than the other and we all pay our fair share. If a marina doesn't charge extra for liveaboards, that just means that all of the users pay for decisions of a few.
 
#37 ·
I believe that the 10% live aboard occupancy rate in California marinas is state wide for all areas falling under the Coastal Commission’s jurisdiction. Up here in San Francisco we also have to follow the dictates of the Bay Conservation and Development Commission (BCDC). Heck, Alameda even stretched a cable across Packer Cove at one time in order to discourage the “homeless” from anchoring there.
 
#38 ·
I'm the first to enjoy a cocktail at the end of the day and am happy that yard employees do so too. However, drinking in plain sight of the customers at 5:01 (make that 12:01 on Saturdays) is ridiculous. Generally, who cares. But the next time they screw up some maintenance (AND THEY WILL), the only thought I have in my mind is them sitting around drunk with empty Coors Light cans all around them. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Bad management, which is grossly typical in the marine industry.- Minnewaska
I think lots of industries have this problem.

This is the same problem in the restaurant business when employees finish work and go to the bar while the restuarant is still open.

I know you are a pilot...I must say it is very disconcerting when I travel ( fairly frequently) for business and am on a layover or between connecting flights seeing the pilots, crew flight atendants drinking in the airport restraurant lounges.

On your other point, Dave, I'm actually agreeing with you - thereby showing the problems with communication by text without benefit of tone and body language.-Wingnwing
+1 you are right here and also about letting each decide. A blanket rule without an overreaching problem is usually not a good idea.
 
#39 ·
There has been a few times we have needed to stay in a marina and have been fortunate to stay in a marina that would make great liveaboard marina.
Bridgeton Harbour Marina near New Bern, has a great harbourmaster and we meet a dozen of the liveaboards that treated us like family. very nice facilities including free laundry.
 
#41 ·
Sadly it is the price to pay for living in paradise. The government agencies in California control the building and use permit process and their goal is to limit growth along the coast line and waterfronts. It doesn’t matter how well equipped a marina is if the goal is to limit the number of people living along the water. In the Bay Area, they have closed down marinas for non-compliance with environmental regulations and all but stopped the building of new ones. Most of the houseboats in Sausalito are now gone. They came very close to banning copper based bottom paint on all recreational vessels. Our club at one time applied for a building permit to fill in our then unused swimming pool. The BCDC would only sign-off if we opened up our private club grounds to public access. In order to get a permit to do some renovations inside the clubhouse we had to agree to extend the Bay Trail through our club grounds (at our own expense!).
 
#42 ·
Emoney- Ok , you got me. I have to tell you I don't go from town to town and marina to marina and harrass the help about the rates. Rather , As I sail about , up and down the east coast I meet people , discuss topics of interest and the status of local marinas, anchoring ,management attitudes as well as the temperment of the local authorities always seem to come up after the initial "where you going, where you been " discussions are exhausted.
So, "on The surface" it may seem that way and seeing that perspective in print certainly struck a chord w/ me as I wouldn't want to be percieved as an ass that merely goes from buss. establishment to establishment w/ the sole purpose of mocking the practices their.
On a slightly different chord, I find it extremely interesting the almost completely different views presented by Che2sail and wingnwing while both have stated valid views and concerns the perceptions of each are so different it speaks to something I am unable to put into words. On one hand you have an opinion and perspective of a YC member abd HOA homeowner of aparent means and on the other a cruising sailor whom is quite obviously "out there" doing what many dream of. THe difference in their perspectives and attitudes towards this topic are fascinating to me. And make me ask myself HOW they have arrived at there positions and I keep coming back to their life experiences and economic standing which I believe are entwined when a person goes through life and certainly expresses the differences in the un-official class warfare in our culture.
But as the country singer who's name I cannot recall says- I could be wrong.
Just sayin'
 
#44 ·
...
On a slightly different chord, I find it extremely interesting the almost completely different views presented by Che2sail and wingnwing while both have stated valid views and concerns the perceptions of each are so different it speaks to something I am unable to put into words. On one hand you have an opinion and perspective of a YC member abd HOA homeowner of aparent means and on the other a cruising sailor whom is quite obviously "out there" doing what many dream of. THe difference in their perspectives and attitudes towards this topic are fascinating to me. And make me ask myself HOW they have arrived at there positions and I keep coming back to their life experiences and economic standing which I believe are entwined when a person goes through life and certainly expresses the differences in the un-official class warfare in our culture.
But as the country singer who's name I cannot recall says- I could be wrong.
Just sayin'
This is perhaps worth pursuing, Joe. I think you've got the right conclusion for the wrong reasons - or maybe the wrong conclusion for the right reasons? Anyway, our difference of opinion is more complex than classism/economic standing. How I know that for sure, is that Chef and his wife, and Dan and I, know each other in real life and call each other friend; our politics and to some extent backgrounds are similar (similar age & hometown); and we're pretty much in the same financial bracket, though we've prioritized our spending differently. It's also true that our positions aren't quite as opposed as they look - we both think that liveaboards need to pay for the services they consume (although we may differ on how that contribution should be measured and taxed) and both believe that the individual marine entity should determine how many or few liveaboards it can support.

We have to look elsewhere for the difference of opinion and I think its worth exploring, then, what you suggested about how much the entertwining of experience and economics plays the role of shaping outlook, because money certainly affects the kind and number of experiences you have. The very most obvious of these being that we were able to retire, fully funded, relatively young, and start cruising sooner. My parents planted the travel bug on me early; my first international trip was when I was about 12, and at least one every year from then until I left home for good.

Then there's the other pretty obvious stuff. When we travel by land, we don't stay in 5-star hotels, but at the same time, we don't have to stay in the fleabags on the sketchy side of town, either, and that certainly affects the people we meet and what we do. When storms are predicted, we can afford to stay in marinas in relative security rather than on the hook wondering who will drag - again, the character of our cruising is a little different because of this. Etc, etc.

Here's another possibility to speculate on: does how "rooted" you are to a particular location affect your attitude? If you've grown up and lived much of your life in one part of the country, built a house there and invested in it, makes sense to me that you'd be more protective of that, than if you can simply raise anchor and move on if the area is not to your liking. This is for good and bad - the good is that we can be pretty laid back about places and how they choose to be, but on the other hand, the bad is that we're not motivated to put in the energy to help improve conditions, either.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Joe, Joe say it aint so

You have made classic assumptions of facts not in evidence and let your preconcieved sterotypes of what a yacht club member and a live aboard cruiser colour your thinking to the point where you have extrapolated that the discussion and difference in opinions are class warefare. You are way off base here

And make me ask myself HOW they have arrived at there positions and I keep coming back to their life experiences and economic standing which I believe are entwined when a person goes through life and certainly expresses the differences in the un-official class warfare in our culture.joethecobbler
First of all let me say that Wingnwing and her husband and my wife and I are good friends, part of a close knit sailing group in the Chesapeake and have gotten together socially over 10 times. We enjoy each others company, stories, share recipies, knowledge and a great amount of laughter together. I have the UTMOST respect for her and her opinons and live vicariously through her when they go to the Carribean most years. She is my mentor in some respects and has a wealth of sailing experience and life knowledge as does her husband. They are active memebers on many groups includding SCCA and in the community. A number of us in our sailing community here would like to have seen her asked to become a moderator on Sailnet because she represents to quintessential facillitator and would help to bring people together with her wealth of knowledge, experience, and positive demeanor. I can tell you there is no " class warfare" between us no do we look at each other as in different classes. She and I both abhor and prejudices in life and have actively worked in society to prevent them. Please do not bring that into the intellectual discussion she and I were contributing to and make it about that. You took a leap into the unknown here on the internet and as one of my favorite says on Law and Order goes...presented facts not in evidence.

Lets start about our facilities. I belong to the oldest YC on the Chesapeake. It has a long tradition and has been FINANCIALLY solvent for over 106 years now. It does not discriminate in choosing its membership. Each of the 114 memebers ( slipholders) is a voting member of the club. We have elected Boards which run and govern the club, watch and control over the finances, and make policy decisions concerning the club. We hire a staff of 5 FT and 15 PT employees including a professional chef, a facilities manager, an accounting clerk, supervised by a general manager who also sells banquets. We are a not for profit corporation. The Board which I have volunteered for at various times has the responsibility for keeping the club solvent as well as setting the policies of the club. I am not sure what your preconcieved notions are about Yacht Clubs, but they are all as different as there are people on the Earth and they shouldnt be lumped together. We volunteer for some of the committees and boards of the club to keep it running which in a marinia this is done strictlky by the owner., Yes we have our token "officers running aroiund in uniformns" who take care of the social as well as the traditional aspects of the club. They are seperate from the financial aspects which are run like a business. The YC belongs to a larger association of YC both on the Chessie (25) and nationawide which lets us when we travel or they travel have reciprocity, reduced slip rates, safe port in a storm, and a friendly place when we travel with our boat to NE as well as when my wife and I have chartered in California.

Wingng belongs to a very prestigous marinia in presitigous downtown Annapolis one of the prime location spots in all of the East Coast for sailing. It also is a working yard and has many yacht brokerages present there. It has facilities second to none. While we are a small YC with a pool, showers, fuel dock, clubhouse.....their facility is ours times 10. It is owned by a private money making corporation and the slipholders like wingnwing have no say in policies or rates of the marinia.

Suffice it to say in your implied class warefare comment. A 60x16 slip in my club costs $2200 yearlly and a similar one in Wingnwings would be over $7800 per year. Even with the added member dues of $1000 and the restaurant chit of $1000 it would cost us twice as much to stay wingnwings facility with no say in anything. We chose to stay where we were somewhat because of the double the cost in her facility. Our fees have not increased in three years because of our "good stewardship" in running our club. This in spite of declining membership due to the economy. We have increased our number of outside catering events which has helped us financially.

And make me ask myself HOW they have arrived at there positions and I keep coming back to their life experiences and economic standing which I believe are entwined when a person goes through life and certainly expresses the differences in the un-official class warfare in our culture.-joethecobbler
What exactly does this mean?

Our club voted to allow 10% liveaboards a few years ago after doing a thorough financial impact analysis as well as looking at the benefits of having people there year round. During 3-4 months of the year it was virtually closed and this changed its dynamics. Our decison was based STRICTLY on this and not by some "life experiences and economic standing" as you have stated. I am partly responsible to maintain the financial viability of the club of 100 years with my vote thats all. If you read the thread carefully you will see that wingnwing agree on this responsibility and that we also agree that the figure of the percentage should not be set arbitrarily by the county but should be looked at on a case by case basis at each facility.

But as the country singer who's name I cannot recall says- I could be wrong.
Just sayin' -joethecobbler
You are dead wrong and have allowed your own sterotypes to intervene into your reasoning. Look before you leap next time and make statemtns about class warefare which are devisive and help perpetuate sterotypes.
 
#45 ·
Ha! I was composing while Chef was posting - interesting that we've independently come to similar conclusions. :D
 
#46 ·
FWIW, Chef has underestimated the cost of our slip. Just got our next year's contract, sigh. If we were just keeping the boat here and living elsewhere and weekending, we'd probably be looking for a different home base. But there's the difference of being a fulltime liveaboard - this is the view I want to wake up to every morning and the community I want to come home to every evening, and since we have no other housiing costs, we can pay almost as much for 8 pilings and a rectangle of water, and the associated amenities, as a 1-bedroom apartment here... minus the view, of course!
 
#48 · (Edited)
Wingnwing

You could come to MYC for 1/2 the amount of money ( smiles), Same water view, actually quiter. You do have the working yard in your favor. Is that worth $5000 per year? I know you guys are attached to the Annapolis area and love it there.

You are right also about retiring and what we are used to. I am fortunate also that I will be able to in about years at the ripe old age of 591/2. Donna and I downsized from each owning two houses to what we have now and I think we will always have a land based type of home ( low maintainence) for a number of reasons. We like the fact that it is an asset that Appreciates and actually adds to our financial position. If one of us ( or when) becomes sick or ill we have a home to come to, I like the ability to be on the edge of a farm/ forest and see the birds and trees, and then go to my boat and see a different view. I lived on the beach at the Jersey shore for 20 years and never saw a bird ( gulls are rats with wings) or a tree. I love our fireplace. I feel blessed that I have the best of both worlds.

We are looking for the right boat I know it wont be the same racer/ cruiser our haleakula is) to cruise to the bahamas/ Florida/ Carribean with for 4 months a years, I actually the type of cruising Crusing Donna and I will do will be similar to Wingnwing and her husband. ( Maybe thats one of the many similarities we have that makes us so compatable). We appreciate the simple things in life... the peaceful view of the water and the outrageous sunset and good company.

As stated when you have roots, and investment in property, it does change you veiw about keeping it pristine and making improvments..what the neighborhood looks like....that protects your investment. Thats is a different level of commitment than living aboard where when you dont like things you just pull up anchor and move on. Ones not better or right...just different and certainly does not reflect a difference in classes.

Like I said previously wingnwing and her husband are friends and mentors, Yes I have plenty of offshore and sailing experience, but none as a cruiser. I listen to them with interest and respect their experience in a whole part of the sailing arena I want to do eventually ( not that far away really). I also respect their personalities and uniqueness too. I live vicariously through their blog/ posts when they have gone down south. I am hoping that when I retire I can be as relaxed as they are. As wingnwing stated we both grew up at similar times and actually share a lot of the same values from that time period. It helps us connect in that area.

I dont necessarily beleive in the melting pot theory, I dont beleive we all have to melt together or give up our identities which make us unique....I like the tossed salad theory better. It takes many different ingredients with different textures/ tastes to make a good tossed salad. You are part of the greater whole salad, but retain the identity of your individual ingredient. Many we have met in the sailing community have led our experience to remain a positive one which keeps building, from my early instructors, to my racing friends with whom I have raced the last 15 years with, to the deliveries and offshore experiences I have had on other boats, the 1500, crossing the Atlantic twice, to our many friends and aquantemces on the Chessie, Sailnet, Anthing Sailing forums, and our yacht club. These experiences tend to shape my decisions, not a differenece in class.

I am digressing now...back to the liveaboard theme


Dave
 
#50 ·
Wingnwing

You could come to MYC for 1/2 the amount of money ( smiles),
LOL, Dave, but it would be one heckuva dinghy trip every time we wanted to go downtown Annapolis, instead of just a few hundred yards across the creek. :)

Appreciate the vote of confidence, though! And the standing invitation.
 
#49 ·
".they told us the live aboard rate was going to go up $200 a month! Is there opposition to "
Welcome to the free market economy. There's a limited supply, so the folks who own it are charging everything they can get. Kinda like the airlines. Oh, would you like priority seating at the dingy dock? That'll be an extra $10 if you use our cleats, didn't you bring your own? Water's free, but there's a hose surcharge if you want to use our hose. Wait a minute, am I being hosed?

Yeah, welcome to the 21st century. Be glad there are no flying cars, there'd be oil dripping from the skies along with loose nuts and bolts.
 
#54 ·
Chef2sail - Thank you for the insight about your YC . It definitely gives me a view into a fine long standing establishment that apparently furthers the interests of boating and sailing.
I wouldn't and cannot deny that at any level and I must say The rates you quoted when compared to other locations and Marinas aren't bad at all! Hell, I could even afford it if I were so inclined and was willing to forgo a few other of my interests that consume my meager earnings. Sounds like not a bad place at all.
BUT - (and a rather large but at that) When I made reference to class warfare I wasn't refering to you opposed to WingNWing I was refering to BOTH OF YOU .
And I wil attempt to explain.
You BOTH are of the upper financial bracket (apparently WingNWing a bit more so ??)
I didn't mean to indicate that you-all were of different financial class but rather you both were "well Heeled" and that it is interesting that you had differing opinions and views , I am now even MORE fascinated as to you differing perspectives in light of your revealed friendship and all.
You have dispelled a bit of the YC stereotype I had of you (chef2sail) in light of the costs and figures as well as the structure of you club. interesting view into your world.
I also find it quite nice that you can have a difference of opinion and still be friends, as it should be.
However , the way I read your posts and the fact that you enjoy the HOA relationship of homeownership I percieve you as a bit of a harsher outlook to the financially lesser endowed (two homes each for you and spouse,HOA,Jersey shore) I mean come on man.
Now , that being said , bully for you ! I think it's great your doing well and wish you the best in the future. I'm not of the "hate the Rich" mindset, I appreciate your opinions and perspective I just don't always understand it or agree with it.
Like I said "I could be wrong" thanks for the clarification.
No hostility meant and (I hope) no hard feelings.
 
#55 ·
WingNwing - Thanks for seeing a bit of what I was attempting to portray in my il-percieved posting. I have to admit I am more inclined to "side" with the opinion and perspective you have expoused and am well aware that you are far from a poor. and did not intend to indicate otherwise. My apology if you were at all offended.
I found it quite interesting you both responded at almost the same time !
I enjoy you writing style and appreciate what I feel is your steady and fair approach to things boating related. As you stated we've had slightly different opinions about things in the past. But no bother , I enjoy exchange w/ those of differing views. It's one of he reasons I come to sailnet, to hears different takes on stuff.
Interesting to know of your personal friendshp w/ Chef2sail , small world !
Also , glad to hear the american dream is working for you. sounds like you made all the right choices at all the right times. Hope it continues for ya.
you have a very nice manner of writing. I'm admitedly envious.
 
#60 ·
Joe - I wouldn't call your initial posting "ill-conceived" so much as "complex and difficult to articulate in just a few words," which is exactly what you stated at the outset. And it certainly sparked an interesting conversation. Let me see if I can state what I finally got out of it (let me know if I'm understanding you correctly). Were you trying to say that when you saw Chef's and my opposing posts, it seemed enlightening that despite the claims of class warfare, the rich don't all have the exact opinions on any given subject, any more than the middle class do, or the poor do ... in the final analysis there's no 1%, or 47%, and although there may be trends, you can't know what someone is likely to think or do just because you know their income or financial status. In the end, we're all just individual people, and you have to get to know and understand each of us one at a time.

Back to living aboard: I find it interesting is that it seems that what most marinas object to in their stereotypes of liveaboards aren't things that cost money, and that's why I totally don't get their prejudice; this is what I alluded to in my comment about showing up in person so they'd see we would be good citizens of the marina community. The stereotype seems to be someone who's dirty, has their cr@p strewn about the dock near their slip, maybe loud and drunken. (Not fair, but there you are.) Even if you're working two jobs and don't have time to polish your brightwork, it doesn't cost money to be considerate, pick up your trash, groom occasionally, and all that. Maybe this is also part of what you meant in your initial comment about seeing that economics is not a good predictor of how someone would act?

Finally, on a personal note, what would I have to be offended about? I take it as a compliment that you didn't think we were swaggering about showing off wads of cash. (I debated mightily that blog post a year or so ago where we detailed our baseline cruising budget.) "When you've really arrived," my dad used to tell me, "you don't have to shout about it."

I've been following your posts, are you going to be stopping in Annapolis? We could get together for a beer. No blue blazers, I promise! :D
 
#58 ·
I am by no means rich. I own a 30 year boat. I have worked hard for what I have and continue to do so. I make no apologies for having and owning a house and view it as a sound financial investment as well as a place to live. I am not a minimalist by any means, but try and use as much green environmental products as possible and live my life trying to contribute to others as well as enjoying it or myself and my wife.

Our boat and club is a means for our family to be together in simple surroundings without a lot of the hustle and stuff we are bombarded ith in our jobs. I love almost all aspects of sailing. A reasonable extension of this logic is to say that just because I have not been hit by falling space junk for 25 years it surely could happen and I should worry about it. have worked my way up over the years like many others from a hobie cat, to a small keelboat, to a 28 Islander, to our current 35 C&C. I have enjoyed each and all of these boats. I like to race, cruise and just hang out in any way on our boat. There are no free lunches in life. I make no apologies for what I have, and it des not define me other.

Dave
 
This post has been deleted
#62 · (Edited)
Sidney, a fist fight? I don't think there was anything beligerant in my post, and I certainly didn't call you any names. I guess I could have left it unaddressed, but your initial post was the most vociferous in claiming that marinas had no justification for charging a liveaboard fee. I'm certainly not alone here in recognizing that they are entitled to do so. Your post claimed that the justification for such fees was "all BS".

So if anybody that disagrees with you, or tries to point out facts that you might not have considered, they must be looking for a fight, or is "just an a--hole"? If so, then I guess I'm an a--hole.

Let me buy you a drink Sid, I think you need one.
 
#59 ·
I am by no means rich. I own a 30 year boat. I have worked hard for what I have and continue to do so. I make no apologies for having and owning a house and view it as a sound financial investment as well as a place to live. I am not a minimalist by any means, but try and use as much green environmental products as possible and live my life trying to contribute to others as well as enjoying it or myself and my wife.

Our boat and club is a means for our family to be together in simple surroundings without a lot of the hustle and stuff we are bombarded ith in our jobs. I love almost all aspects of sailing. A reasonable extension of this logic is to say that just because I have not been hit by falling space junk for 25 years it surely could happen and I should worry about it. have worked my way up over the years like many others from a hobie cat, to a small keelboat, to a 28 Islander, to our current 35 C&C. I have enjoyed each and all of these boats. I like to race, cruise and just hang out in any way on our boat. There are no free lunches in life. I make no apologies for what I have, and it des not define me other.

Dave
Hey now whats that all about? you don't have to explain yourself to me. If your doing good , well . . . GOOD !
I wish the best for everyone.

Oh ,by the way -

Free lunch friday every week from october through the end of May , waterloo,ny first presbiterian church, main street starting at 11:30am all are welcome, donations accepted but not required.

Or if your in Daytona Beach,Fl.- the "Coalition" (I thinks it's called the coalition for the homeless) has free Lunch EVERYDAY except sunday- just off of ridgewood avenue south of Mason ave. ID required to be served. you don't have to be homeless , just hungry.

On sundays in Daytona Beach,Fl. a few of the churches offer free lunches as well as free sermons.

So, ther actually ARE free lunches in life !

I aint' sayin' I'm just sayin', you know what I'm sayin' ?
 
#61 ·
This has been an interesting thread to follow in that there were many more perspectives shared than I have considered. I'm not sure how my question will fit in to the discussion but I'll ask anyway. How does living aboard on a mooring fit into all this? Is it allowed or overlooked? Does marina management tend to take a different view and do limitations such as those cited in California apply? I ask this because the discussion has focused almost entirely on being tied to a dock. Surely there are those that live on moorings also.

For the relatively short period that I owned my first boat there was a short period, when my jobsite was closer to the boat than home, where I lived on my boat 5-7 days a week. I absolutely loved it. There were no additional charges incurred by me. I did use more water and electricity while onboard. The water was free, the electricity metered, but on the other hand I did make more purchases such as ice and snacks. The marina owner also commented that he noticed much less loitering from campers in a nearby campground at night while I was there and I felt like I contributed to the security of the place in some small way. Since I was tied to the other side of the fuel dock, there were several instances that I assisted powerboaters in tying up to fuel when the help hadn't arrived yet (small marina).

Based on my own limited experience, I can understand a small, reasonable fee for liveaboards and I can understand a marina wanting to maintain certain standards. I also think that responsible liveaboards contribute to the welfare of the marina in lots of small, yet significant ways and have trouble understanding why any marina would willingly object to having responsible people who conduct themselves within marina standards living in the marina.

I've never lived in a HOA so I'll use my own analogy. When living on a Navy vessel at sea, the berthing areas are VERY close. Nobody cared what color your blanket was or even whether or not you made your rack up as long as the curtains were closed. But you damn well better keep your rack clean because nasty odors and/or junk falling from your rack onto the community deck would earn you a forcibly mandated trip to the showers as your matress was rolled up and the entire contents dumped overboard. Respect your neighbors was the order of the day.
 
#67 ·
This has been an interesting thread to follow in that there were many more perspectives shared than I have considered. I'm not sure how my question will fit in to the discussion but I'll ask anyway. How does living aboard on a mooring fit into all this? Is it allowed or overlooked? Does marina management tend to take a different view and do limitations such as those cited in California apply? I ask this because the discussion has focused almost entirely on being tied to a dock. Surely there are those that live on moorings also.
Many of the marinas we've stayed in have offered anchored or moored boats the option to land their dinghies here, take advantage of shoreside services like laundry and bathhouse and internet lounge, for a nominal fee, $10 per dinghy per day on the days they use it, and no one seems to have a problem with that. Of course, long term anchored/moored boats need to have some provision for pumpout and waste removal. The issues I've seen between marinas and anchored boats tend to be related to pollution, improper anchoring (either dragging into boats in slips, or anchoring so close that those boats can't safely leave), or noise (generators or music either loud or at inconsiderate hours), or trying to game the system by sneaking in and not paying. But those are bad behavior regardless, whether someone's a liveaboard or not, on land or on water.

For the relatively short period that I owned my first boat there was a short period, when my jobsite was closer to the boat than home, where I lived on my boat 5-7 days a week. I absolutely loved it. There were no additional charges incurred by me. I did use more water and electricity while onboard. The water was free, the electricity metered, but on the other hand I did make more purchases such as ice and snacks. The marina owner also commented that he noticed much less loitering from campers in a nearby campground at night while I was there and I felt like I contributed to the security of the place in some small way. Since I was tied to the other side of the fuel dock, there were several instances that I assisted powerboaters in tying up to fuel when the help hadn't arrived yet (small marina).
Sounds like someone who's an asset to the marina community. I'm not surprised that the owner appreciated having you there.

Based on my own limited experience, I can understand a small, reasonable fee for liveaboards and I can understand a marina wanting to maintain certain standards. I also think that responsible liveaboards contribute to the welfare of the marina in lots of small, yet significant ways and have trouble understanding why any marina would willingly object to having responsible people who conduct themselves within marina standards living in the marina.

I've never lived in a HOA so I'll use my own analogy. When living on a Navy vessel at sea, the berthing areas are VERY close. Nobody cared what color your blanket was or even whether or not you made your rack up as long as the curtains were closed. But you damn well better keep your rack clean because nasty odors and/or junk falling from your rack onto the community deck would earn you a forcibly mandated trip to the showers as your matress was rolled up and the entire contents dumped overboard. Respect your neighbors was the order of the day.
With you there - consideration, thinking about the effect your actions have on those around you, make for good relations. Isn't this the stuff we learned in kindergarden?
 
#63 ·
I think the posters here are ignoring a HUGE issue. Since cruising from Portland Oregon to San Diego California we have had several issues with "liveaboards" Please understand what I mean by 'liveaboard' are those who are slipped up in a sailboat and NEVER LEAVE. They just sit there, collecting junk, watching the boat fall into disrepair, and getting very protective and agressive about 'their dock'.

Sailors are the most wonderful people I have met so far and I have been travelling the world since my 20s. However liveaboards are usually a problem. Not all of them of course. A liveaboard taught me how to sail, and Larry was a wonderful guy!
 
#66 ·
Agression and junk collecting are bad marina behavior, certainly. But, they are bad behavior in anyone. I don't see the connection to living aboard and strongly disagree with your "liveaboards are usually a problem." Usually? The marina is our only home, and as such we take much better care of it than those who have "real" houses to go to and spend energy on.

So what if they never leave? We know lots of people whose houses and jobs are nearby the marina, they keep their boats here for years and years and never leave either.
 
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