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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard > Opposition to liveaboards
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-13-2013 07:33 PM
Ravenhawk
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by treilley View Post
We pay the same amount as everyone else here. Our marina meters electricity in the winter but that is for every boat that stays in the water.

Only two manias left in town that allow year round live aboards. I think they will do whatever they can to get the extra revenue in the off season.
....I wish i can find a marina like that in New york....preferably on long Island....
01-05-2013 05:17 PM
miatapaul
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
It could be that the tax base changed because the power Co. defaulted, upping everyone's taxes. When a large taxpayer goes away, somebody has to pay the bill.
Yes, and it will only get worse as I know several people already planning on walking away from there houses, as they were barely able to pay as it was.
01-05-2013 04:34 PM
smurphny
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post
Well all I can report is that in Marlboro, though I don't currently live there, I did look at a few houses there and know several people who do live there is going up way more than the 2%, as there are lots of loop holes, and it has to do with the Danskammer Generating Station and Roseton Generating Stations owner Dynegy failing to pay proper taxes the city of Marlboro and Newburgh are raising there taxes way more than 2%.



Well it is a home as per tax laws as far a mortgage interest is concerned. In certain sates you pay property tax on all "personal property" including boats as I mentioned NH is one of those states so they do pay property tax yearly on boats.
It could be that the tax base changed because the power Co. defaulted, upping everyone's taxes. When a large taxpayer goes away, somebody has to pay the bill.
01-05-2013 03:53 PM
miatapaul
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Your taxes can't go by more than 2% with the new property tax cap, wisely signed into law by Gov. Cuomo. He seems to be doing a pretty good job. It is unfunded mandates that are bankrupting school systems. I am way upstate in the boonies and the taxes here are comparatively not bad. I do know people downstate that are getting killed by high RE taxes. Anyway, this is getting way off the OP.
Well all I can report is that in Marlboro, though I don't currently live there, I did look at a few houses there and know several people who do live there is going up way more than the 2%, as there are lots of loop holes, and it has to do with the Danskammer Generating Station and Roseton Generating Stations owner Dynegy failing to pay proper taxes the city of Marlboro and Newburgh (were I did just sell a house) are raising there taxes way more than 2%. Estimates are between 70 and 80% a year for at least the next two years. Nothing to do with unfunded mandates, but corporate greed and mishandling of budgets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
Paul, what do you mean that "....people who liveaboard are home owners, and as you say in New Hampshire, pay property tax." ??

Their liveaboard boat is not a "home", it is officially a "luxury".
Many years ago, I was contemplating declaring bankruptcy, but learned that the first thing I would have to sell, was my boat, even though it was my only "home", because it is considered a luxury, not a home.

And no, we do not pay any "property tax". We may pay a sales tax (dependent on the State) when we buy a boat, but that is it.
Well it is a home as per tax laws as far a mortgage interest is concerned. In certain sates you pay property tax on all "personal property" including boats as I mentioned NH is one of those states so they do pay property tax yearly on boats.
01-05-2013 02:12 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

If you rip out a marina on the Bay and replace it with a house, the real estate taxes would decline! Commercial tax rates are substantially higher than Residential.

These hypothetical residential neighbors that object to the good tax deal that marina tenants get, should be careful what they are asking for. You can put the marina out of business, when its tenants can't afford both property taxes and their lease (which includes the marina's taxes) and replace it all with less revenue from the new McMansion. Then those dopey homeowners that complained get to pay more to make up for the loss of the commercial base instead. Duh.
01-05-2013 01:32 PM
LauderBoy
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If things are so simple as you say why this hot discussion and most of all why marinas or states do not want liveaboards?
Because people don't like it when other people live in a way that's different than them.

When person A sees people B-X making the same choices as them it validates that their own choice was correct. However when they see people Y-Z making a different choice, well, by God they must be doing something wrong.

You'll find this applies to most areas in life and you'll also find that some people spend a huge amount of energy and effort making sure that choices that aren't their choices are eliminated as potential choices for people who don't have their level of "enlightenment and wisdom".

Also you could argue as a race we're very much designed to "fall into line" and do as everyone else does. The tribes that acted like this more easily organized and wiped out the tribes that didn't. If you don't fall into your tribe's expected way of living and acting, don't get all surprised when the tribe takes a disliking to you.

It's rather absurd to think that liveaboards are taking more from a community than they pay in. We pay commercial rates in electricity, pay taxes/environmental charges in our slip fees and use far far less resources than your average house dweller. Hell, a house's lawn alone will burn up 10,000 gallons of water a year. I probably use a quarter of that every year for all of my needs. Never mind all the fertilizer that gets dumped on that lawn and runs off into the local waterways. And then people bitch about boat bottom paint or grey water discharge???

Don't look for any deep logic in dislike of liveaboards.
01-05-2013 12:53 PM
PCP
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauderBoy View Post
This is completely wrong. When I lived in an apartment in Orlando I paid rent, which went to the property owners who paid the property taxes on the apartment I lived in.

I now rent a slip at a marina, who pay property taxes(and probably a crap ton more taxes and fees than my apartment owners ever had to deal with) with the money I pay for on my slip.

It's no different.
It seems you are right unless the property taxes paid by marinas does not correspond to the number of livingaboard boats or should you say the number of cruising boats?

I have heard some numbers regarding property tax per month that are similar to the numbers of property tax by year in some European countries. If those values were applied to marinas in proportion to their number of places marinas in the US would be much more expensive than marinas in Europe and that don't seems to be true.

If they were applied only to liveaboards it will make those places hugely more expensive than normal ones. This has nothing to do with paying the water the electricity and superior maintenance due to more use. It has to do with that but with paying house/boat tax while the others that use the boat as a toy should not have to pay. And what about those that live on the boat on the summer and week-ends? Does not second houses (holiday houses) pay property taxes?

That seems all a bit blurred.

If things are so simple as you say why this hot discussion and most of all why marinas or states do not want liveaboards?

Marinas want clients and state would always be glad to get more money from tax so why all this fuss?

Regards

Paulo
01-05-2013 11:00 AM
LauderBoy
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't know what is the better system but it seems to me that there the ones that are living on a boat, if I am seeing this correctly, evade tax that that are paid on the house but that is not directly related with the house (roads, school, Garbage), services that are used by all including liveaboards.
This is completely wrong. When I lived in an apartment in Orlando I paid rent, which went to the property owners who paid the property taxes on the apartment I lived in.

I now rent a slip at a marina, who pay property taxes(and probably a crap ton more taxes and fees than my apartment owners ever had to deal with) with the money I pay for on my slip.

It's no different.
01-05-2013 10:15 AM
boatpoker
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

I am told by the general manager of the biggest marina on Lake Ontario that property taxes are built into the slip fees and that if figured on a per square foot basis, the liveaboards in that marina are paying higher property taxes than all the high end water front condos in the area.

I have lived aboard for 15 years in an upscale yacht club on Lake Ontario and there have always been a few snobs who looked down on the liveaboard community. Occasionally due to the differing political winds in the club it got quite bad with the last two years amounting to harrassment. I got fed up with the political BS and left at end of last season.

Among our liveaboard community over the years we have had a couple of architects, a couple of Air Canada pilots, a curator of the Royal Ontario Museum, A vice president of Ontario Hydro a number of electrical engineers ...... in other words not boat bums and a few very wealthy people who simply chose to live on boats. The boats are clean and well maintained the owners quiet and responsible and the only trouble ever in the harbour came from drunken sailboat racers, not the liveaboards.

I have no explanation for the the way we are looked down upon but it is a fact. It make no difference if you are at an upscale gated private club or a boat bum in Marathon. There is a certain element of society that will always look down on you.
Ignore these people and move on.
01-05-2013 10:13 AM
wingNwing
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Paulo, I believe you are overall correct about the different tax structure US vs. Europe, but there are significant differences between states within the US. Most states charge you a sales tax when you buy the boat; some in addition charge an annual % based on the value of the boat ("property" tax). Some states are more liveaboard friendly than others, and many distinguish between living at anchor (perceived free or nearly so) and living in a marina (where liveaboards pay property tax the way any other renter would, by subsidizing the property tax charged to the landlord or marina owner).

Doug's information about Georgia banning liveaboards is no longer correct. The ruling was always selectively enforced and exemptions were available, now it is legal, you just need to register and prove pumpout.
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