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can I afford to continue sailing

15K views 115 replies 75 participants last post by  schelli 
#1 ·
So at the end of this season my wife tells me she cant justify the dock fees associated with me having a sailboat and she dosn't think we can afford it next season. I didnt keep track but I'm sure i went out 25 or more times and my dock costs about $1300 for the season. That breaks down to about $50 per outing worth of dock fees. I have to admit when she puts it that way it sounds like a lot of money. I'm your typical middle class 30 something sailor with a wife and 2 young children. I dont make a lot of money but we arent poor either. Now I have about 5 months to get her to change her mind on this or were going to have a seroius disagreement. I'm not willing to give up sailing. After my father passed 4 years ago at 61 I decided that if i keep waiting for the right time to own a boat, I might wait forever. He died never setting foot on a sailboat and always dreaming of doing so. I also want my children to know the freedom of sailing. When they become adults they can make their own informed decision on weather they want to partake in my love affair with the water. Its not a money thing. Its a priority thing. I'm looking for some advise on changing her mind. I'm also willing to make consessions like go to a Mooring rather than a dock to roughly cut my costs in half if I can find one here in Buffalo N.Y. Anyone in the area that has any suggestions on where to go that would be helpful too.
 

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#61 · (Edited)
This is what I do.

Never told the wife what I paid for the boat. I don't tell her what the slip cost, don't tell here how much the boat parts cost. If she really wanted to find out she could, all the bills are lying around for her to see.

What I do is make sure she always has a running car and some money, there is food on the table, the house is in reasonably good condition, there is money in the bank and money going to savings and retirement. The kids have adequate clothing. The kids do what ever sport they want and I take them to practice and go to their games. I also purchase what ever sports equipment the kids want as long as they are going to really use it (rather have them outside than watching tv or playing video games). The wife is free to do what activities she wants, and I'll watch the kids. I fix and maintain the cars, house and boat myself to save money.

What I don't do is: Smoke, Drink much, Chase women (do look though), Golf, Go to bars, Play silly sports where there are a lot of fees involved.

Note kids are not always overly thrilled about going on the boat, neither is the wife. Boat mainly for my sanity, although I do like getting the kids on the ocean, and it is good for them, they will have no fear of the water.

IF I did tell the wife what the boat cost, there probably would be a problem. Some things you are off better not knowing.

Good luck
 
#62 ·
Is there a way you could make a couple grand over the winter? Justify the dock fees and maybe take her away for a couple of weekends with whats left over?

Or, ask the marina if they need some help in the spring/fall. Barter some or all of your dock fees.
 
#64 ·
The money is what starts it so equalize it. Dollar for dollar and if the family can't aford the extra $1,300 for her from what I understand then you must give up something to offset the expense.
Don't eat your lunch out during the week, don't eat out at the marina/weekend, etc. pack your lunch and your weekend food. Buy supplies for self and boat not at where the boat is slipped as most likely those are higher priced than close to home.
In other words you save that boating money and convince her to to enjoy it too. If all that doesn't work out you must pick the best of the two girls which most likely is the one you married (I did). After which you must make friends to go sailing with to get your fix.
 
#65 ·
Is there a way you can easily make extra money and null her argument? Whatever business you're involved in may have products or parts that you know all about that you can buy and sell. I know about Porsches so I used to buy and sell Porsche parts. For instance, I bought a dead engine once for $1000.00 I parted it out and got about $3500.00 for the good parts. Just the carbs alone (the first piece to go) sold for $997.00 and I got another $300.00 for the air cleaners. The point is that I knew that they were worth that when I bought the engine.
Another time I bought a pile of questionable transmissions for $150.00. I *thought* some of them might have had rare gear ratios in them. It turned out that 2 of them had some rare gears. The first set went for $300.00, the second for $425.00 and there was about 10 more sets that were desirable.
Almost everybody knows enough about something to do the same. If you can, you can just kill her argument about money and maybe get to the real issue.
 
#66 ·
You have to have something, or some activity in your life, that is yours. If you don't you'll just end up hating your life and your wife anyway. A hundred bucks a month sounds like a lot, but most families blow much more than that on things you can't even remember at the end of the month. It is shocking to sit down and actually do a real budget. Most people discover that a huge percentage of their spending each month is on discretionary things, meaning not an actual bill or groceries.

I'm willing to bet your wife spends a damn site more than $1300 bucks a year on makeup, clothes, shoes, and handbags if she is any normal sort of woman. She'd blow a gasket if you told her she cannot spend any money without your approval.

For some insane reason, we men are raised under this notion that our job is to cave on every disagreement in an effort to keep the wife happy. It took me 15 years of marriage to learn that this approach creates a monster instead of a wife.

Before I gave up the boat I'd have her sit down with me and list every dollar we pay per month to prove that we can't afford the boat. If the money really isn't there, or your kids are doing without shoes- then the boat needs to go. In all likelihood, there is some meat on the bone in that budget. You can give up a little here and there to offset the boat cost.

A previous poster brought up Dave Ramsey. I am firmly in that camp. It took me way too many years to realize that it is truly amazing how much money you DON'T need when you have no debt. But I do not subscribe to the notion of living like an abject pauper to save every dime for retirement. You are one stroke or car crash away from losing every enjoyable boating day of your life. A fat retirement won't give you memories with your kids.
 
#72 ·
There are some boats moored off of Furhman blvd I think at Tift St. Not sure of the name of the marina there. THis might save you some $.

Mike
Those are the only ones I have ever seen, South End Marina?

Maybe Erie Basin Marina would let you keep it parked there on a trailer with the rig up, but you would still have to launch it everytime you used it. That would be a pain and you would end up using it less.

There are some docks over by the West Marine on Niagara street that might be less expensive, but you would need to go through the Black Rock Lock everytime you go out.

There is no easy answer for you, good luck.
 
#71 ·
This topic interests me as my wife and I (together) made the decision to sell our boat. We both love it. Our daughter loves it. This is our only hobby. It was a very difficult decision. We (again, together) agreed that we would buy a small day sailer that we can trail to the lake, store in our backyard, and still enjoy sailing as a family. We will probably sail more than we do now since we can go to the smaller lakes close by. BTW, our slip fee is just under $3K annually. This is what will allow us to be financially responsible and continue to sail.

As much as everyone keeps telling you that money does not matter, you have to do what is comfortable for you. I find those that say money is not important have plenty of it. Before I got married I used to fly for fun. It got to be too expensive for me. I got into serious debt funding my habit. I made/make a good living as an engineer. My wife was lucky enough to never have been flying with me but still got to pay the bills. After we dug me out of the debt hole I created we bought our boat.

The economy is in the toilet. Jobs and money are getting more scarce. You and I came of age in a falsely strong economy (can we say tech boom and bust). Life is not like that right now.

You are married with kids. While having fun is important you chose the family responsibility. Sometimes you don't get to do what you want to do. Welcome to the real world. I tried doing what I want while ignoring the cost. I am now 10 years behind my peers financially. While they can really afford boats now, I have to sacrifice to many basic conveniences in life to afford it. Living life like you may die tomorrow is the opposite extreme of what your father did. Find a happy medium, be thankful for your family, and find a true compromise so you can still sail, even if on a small day sailer.

If you all think sailing is expensive, try flying.
 
#73 ·
I had a similar post typed up last night, but chickened out. However, because this thread keeps growing, I have to chip in my $0.02...

You are concerned about whether or not you can afford to continue sailing. Here's news for you: owning a boat can usually NOT be justified as a good financial decision. (ya, I know that there are a few folks that have turned a profit, but they are the exception) Here is another bad financial investment; having children. :eek:

I am assuming that you contribute to your household expenses and chores...

The way that I would handle this, and I am not recommending that you do the same, would be to say; "OK, you win - I will give up the boat to protect our retirement, as soon as you give up one of the kids. Which one of the kids do you want to part with?" :eek::eek:

I hope that you wife realizes how lucky she is that you are even thinking about surrendering your passion to please her. She is also lucky that she hasn't married a crotchety old fart like me. :)

Good luck to both of you!
 
#75 ·
It's a trailer sailer...Find a marina you can leave it stored on land with the mast up...Then you just have to "load and launch" when you get to the marina...Anchor out whenever practical or possible (it's more fun than sitting in a slip) and cook on board...

I have my boat (26') on a trailer on Superior right next to the Apostle Island National park system ....

$80 a month on land is my major expence (4-5 month season) ...with a couple $30 transient slips from time to time just to emerse in the local flair... Less than half what your paying now and no worries bout sinking at the slip, getting hit by neighbors or trashed on the dock from surge waves....

But like most here, I don't think money is the real issue...need to find out what's really up with your lady...
 
#76 ·
Can you afford to sail? First of all, I have to say that I love sailing, I don't know why. I get a huge kick out of cutting two poles in the woods and tying my poncho to them and sailing my canoe down a lake. And I have my camping gear in the canoe and camp out where I stop.

I enjoy any type of sailing, from a sailfish (like a surfboard with a sail) to a huge expensive sailboat, they are all great as long as they handle well. I hate a dog of a boat that can't track and broaches. So you can adjust your sailing to your budget.

You can make sailing as cheap or expensive as you want. If you have money to burn, it's easier. If you want to go inexpensively, it might be less convenient, but then, I consider making money inconvenient. If you don't want to give up your home and live aboard, it's still possible to sail often.

I purchased a sailboat on a trailer less than ten years ago. My wife cried (literally). She said I'd never be able to fix it. I repaired it, and we sailed it for a few years. I sold it at a good profit. Without investing any more money I have gone from a centerboard 16 ft. dinghy to a 23' Hunter plus a 24 ft. Seafarer. OK, I have five boats, but only three are obvious if you visited me. :D

By keeping my boats on trailers I have the luxury of having them close by. I can go anywhere my truck can go, and launch them myself. In today's market there are boats everywhere. I only look at ones that come with a trailer, the trailer seems to be free. Or the boat is. There are so many boats that the trailer is the deciding factor. It should be sound and have brakes. The trick is to buy boats that are basically sound but cosmetically awful. Take your time, cruise the Internet. Buy in the late fall. I could have huge boats for the same or no money, but I need to trailer them at this time in my life.

You should look into a mooring instead of a slip. It's cheaper, and your boat is always set up and on the water. You don't "need" to trailer a dinghy to get to the boat. We carry an inflatable canoe (Sea Eagle from Amazon, called a kayak but more like a canoe) which we can carry in the back of the car. We show up, inflate it, and paddle to the mooring. The car is cheaper to drive than the truck, which could carry a hard dinghy or canoe, it's a hundred miles round trip. If we have a lot of stuff, we can bring the boat to the dock and load up, but we usually just make a couple trips with the inflatable. Don't get a "turtle" shaped inflatable unless you have a motor. We tow the inflatable on a very short tether, and when done just deflate it and stow it, washing and drying the next day at home. We anchor out, and cook on board. My wife brings art supplies, her camera, and a good book. I bring a guitar and tools and dive gear. She likes to hold the tiller occasionally, read books and do pastels. I decided to ignore pastel stains on the cleaned and repaired boat. Last time out she wanted to do the anchor. I forgot to tell her about mud and she got very upset about getting mud on the jib. Big deal!! :cool:

I spend more on beer than I do on sailing. I'd rather give up beer than sailing. If I sell a couple of my boats, I'd be $$ ahead of the game.

Yes, setting up the trailer sailer is inconvenient, but so is making more money and paying someone else. We go for at least overnight, so it's only set up, or take down. Arrive early enough to do the job. Do all you can yourself, all boat work is a ripoff. Get digital charts for free or cheap. With the trailer you can work on the boat at home. Heck, I slept on mine the last two nights just for fun. My back feels better than when I sleep in the bed!

I wouldn't be thrilled with a motor cruiser. I literally hate motoring, it's torture for me. Sailing is a joy. I'd rather watch paint dry than motor in a boat. I'd rather be poked in the eye. Heck, I'd rather make money than motor in a boat. Strangely, I think 95% of the sailboats we see are motoring, even in perfect sailing conditions. I like to sail onto and off our anchor or our mooring. Perhaps because when a child we never thought of a motor on a sailboat. But, you have to wait for wind and tide. Fine with me, I'm not out there to make money on a schedule. If I was I'd motor, but not enjoy it.
 
#81 ·
Here is the #1 Rule of Living: There Will Never Be Enough Money.

I don't care who you are or how much money you have. If you're filthy rich, you'll fret about needing a bigger jet than the rock star next door. There is never enough money.

If you give up your boat it will be easy to fritter away the $110 a month you spend on dock fees. What, exactly, does yuur wife think she needs the $110 for? Is it really important enough for you to give up your boat? It may indeed be, but be sure!

I would start a budget tracking spreadsheet and account for every penny. Every last penny. You can find $110 a month. Some ideas: give up meat. Stop getting the paper. Get a cheaper cell phone or get rid of your land line. Cancel the cable. Ride your bicycle to work every day. No more eating out. Get rid of the 2nd car.

One of the most important things you will teach your children is how to amuse themselves constructively. I have heard it said that addicts are a 1-trick pony, in that they don't know how else to soothe or entertain themselves. How many life skills can you learn from a boat? Navigation & seamanship. Radios. Angling. Repair skills. Self confidence. Camaraderie and teamwork. Camping. Really, you can't have a better family pass time than a boat.

And you have to have your own space. You cannot be attached at the hip to your spouse. You both need to have SOME time on your own and come back with a cheerful attitude and a smile on your faces.

A trailer isn't the answer. You have launch fees, and salt water wrecks the brakes no matter how well you wash them out. For a trailerable size boat, it isn't any cheaper than moorage.

Your heart's in the right place to even be considering giving up your boat. If you do decide it's more trouble than it's worth, you can always take up crewing. That's a lot of fun too. Good luck.
 
#82 ·
Wow! cmbrossa.... great post. So true. Especially the part about teaching your kids to amuse themselves - in other words, to enjoy life instead of pinching pennies for a smart phone. Because you are so right, they money will get spent, it will go.....
 
#86 ·
After years of dreaming of owning a sailboat and much to the chagrin of my wife I bought a Gale Force 20, nice little boat with a cuddy cabin that was a blast to sail and overnight on, though she would never stay on it with me. The wife hated it but tolerated it because she saw the joy I got from it. The economy went down the tubes, my wife's business started to suffer so I sold the boat and gave her the money, which unfortunately did not prevent the collapse but only prolonged it of her coffee shop. Fast forward six months later I start looking through boat ads and discussing them with her and out of the blue she says "make sure the next one is bigger than the 20. I look around and find a Catalina 22 that needs work but shows a lot of promise and buy her. I spend three months retrofitting the interior, ask her to pick fabric for cushion covers, curtains, etc. She goes with to buy stove, cookware, all other items necessary to overnight and starts to get into it, but the thing that really changed her mind was one day we were sailing and I went below to get her a glass of wine and gave her the helm and instead of coming right back I sat in the companionway for 30 minutes or so and talked her through navigating across the lake, since that day she's been all for the boat, overnights and loves the meals we cook, and more importantly she discusses what features she would like on our next boat.
 
#87 ·
....out of the blue she says "make sure the next one is bigger than the 20....
Very cool :cool:. I had a somewhat similar experience, I had similar sized boat, and I told my wife I wanted to get another, a larger one, or "maybe a smaller one that she could sail herself to learn on". She rather crossly replied "Well I'm not going to sail it if you get it." I took that as permission/demand (and agreement) to get a larger one, and we have both been happy ever since. She especially likes the galley where she has a sink with (foot pump) running water, and an alcohol stove where she can happily cook steaks, bacon and eggs, coffee and tea etc. The small fridge/freezer is the icing that allows us to stay out for as long as we want (and the beer to be ice cold).

By the way, I do trailer it, and usually can launch for free. After salt water submerging the trailer in a fresh water lake is a good idea.
 
#88 ·
Wow... what a thread...

Topics: finances, relationships, child-raising, politics... a nice potpourri of some serious topics, and it's not just any one of them at issue here, but a strange blending of all of them.

There have been some great relationship tidbits and financial recommendations. I'll second any comment that says to reduce overall expenses (lots of families have $200/month cable/internet bills and another $200/month cell phone... plus huge heating/AC bills because they keep the house 5 degrees warmer/cooler than it needs to be for the season). Bottom line, there are a lot of ways to save money besides getting rid of stuff that you really really enjoy.

My main thought (as someone with three kids): you need to make memories with them. My kids LOVE the boat and I love the fact that they do! I can't wait till some day they can crew totally alone and I'll kick back and watch them. I'm already proud of them for that moment and it hasn't even happened yet. They'll have their entire lives to think back to the times with dad on the boat... the sun, the picnic lunches, the overnights, floating around the water in life jackets, fishing, grilling... Hell, I know I'll be thinking about it all till the day I die.

I remember when I was young our family fishing trips up to Ontario... It amazes me how often I think about those trips... one or two weeks out of the year can make more memories than all the other months combined.

Take pictures... lots and lots of pictures... put them on facebook... print them out, frame them, and hang them on the walls in your house. When your wife sees all the smiles and good times and hears the kids begging to go out again next weekend, for the sake of the family and kids, I hope she decides to be part of it.

If the kids want to spend time with their dad on the boat then I think that's something to bear in mind. The cost of boat ownership is hard to justify financially, but the time with the kids aboard and the memories you'll all have are priceless.
 
#89 · (Edited)
This just came back to me-

Every year while my kids were growing up we spent a full week boat camping on Lake George. My wife grudgingly went along with it because of the out houses but it was the best. Sleeping in a big tent, star gazing on the boat out in the middle of the lake, cooking over fire. I have many memories. The one that comes back to me now is one hot sunny day my youngest boy and I motored over to the ranger office on another island andgot ice cream cones. The sky was blue, the water was like silk and we sat on benches watching the boats coming and going and eating ice cream.

A big Sea Ray came in and we helped the guy tie up. He looked at us for a minute and he looked at our $3000 boat . His boat was easily 100 grand. He sat down with us and we chatted. He looked at my little boy happily eating his ice cream cone. He said you know family is the only real wealth. He asked about my family and I told him my other two sons and my wife were on the next island over. He said, you can get more money anytime, but the kind of wealth I had right then was the best. I never forgot that.
 
#90 ·
Looking for relationship advice on a sailing forum is like asking your marriage counselor what boat you should buy.

In other words there are really really good reasons why many of us here are on our second, and hopefully last wives.

I would like to hear your wife's side of the story, as it is very unfair to her for any of us to offer an opinion when we only get half the debate.
Are you maybe blowing off other commitments to go sailing? Are you not communicating, leaving your wife to wonder where the hell you are? Are you hanging out on the dock and drinking with your boat buddies and then calling her to come drive you home? Did you promise to do things like paint the trim, mulch the garden, build a playhouse for the kids and then blow it off to go sailing?

I understand the need for a slip.
$1300 a year buys you a clubhouse. drysailing doesn't. For some of us, a large portion of sailing is the dockside camaraderie. Go for a sail, return to dock, gather and share a meal, a drink, a sunset, some laughs, some ideas, some sweat when projects need to be done. Sailors often don't work or play well with others- that is why we enjoy the solitary sport of sailing. Many of us are not social types, except when others with similar interests are involved- hence the sanity-maintaining necessity of just hanging around the dock some days. Some of us are Lost Boys, and Lost Boys will always need a Wendy to keep them from getting too self-absorbed.

Don't dump on your Wendy. Don't resent her. Find out what she really needs and wants from you.

In other words, talk to her, not to us.
 
#91 ·
One area I found that cuts the real cost of living for me is making my vehicle repairs a hobby. I save real cash doing my own work. I have gotten fairly competent. The work is done correctly. It goes way back for me. to the 60s so I have some experience now. It transfers to the boat, too. Automobile repair is a racket today. I wish our state cops would set up a sting squad. It constitutes grand theft.

A trailer boat would keep you on the water for the years it takes to build the income base you need to keep a boat at a slip. My Marshal Cat boat did that for me and I keep it on a mooring along with the big boat now. I hope you figure it out. I can't do with out the motion of the bay and the ocean air.

Do not wreck the lives of your kids over having a boat during their young lives. You will regret it a lot more than not having a boat.

Down
 
#93 ·
My husband and I had a nice long talk before we got married:

1/ no couch potatoes
2/ we participate, not observe
3/ we wouldn't hold each other back from things we enjoy as individuals

Everything comes down to communication and having a true sense of self while allowing for differences of opinions. You chose a marriage so if you want to stay married, I'd spend some time off the boat with your wife and kids until this is resolved. But, I wouldn't sell the boat. I'd reinvest in figuring this miscommunication out. It's either now, or never.

My husband was widowed when we met and married. I'm glad we both were middle-aged and knew ourselves. We also profoundly understand that life is much shorter than we realize and the time we spend on our boat, doing the things we enjoy are priceless.

But, I have to admit I didn't love sailing when we started (I love it now!) but I saw HE loved it and that made me happy. Happy people are better spouses so figure this out so you can stay married AND happy.
 
#95 ·
WOW:eek:
10 pages of advice and much of it from divorced guys, that is like learning about explosives from a guy with no arms (just kidding)

Most of us blow more than $1300/year on coffee so I am sure that you will find the $$$ (a couple of side-jobs cover this). I would also bet that if you tell your wife how truly important this is to you as a family activity she will make every attempt to support you.

P.S.- I have been married to the same girl for 28 years
 
#96 ·
Can you afford to keep the boat? No. None of us can, but like crack addicts, we continue to pour money into our habit.

I got started in sailing to have something we could do as a family. My kids have been sailing since they were toddlers and today, as young adults, we continue to enjoy sailing together. Best thing I ever did as far as my kids are concerned.

Your boat expenditures don't seem too outrageous, but if you need to convince the wife that this is money well spent, calculate how much it costs you to keep her around. The boat is probably a bargain in comparison.
 
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#99 ·
There's a famous quote:

"If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" is commonly attributed to J. P. Morgan in response to a question about the cost of maintaining a yacht

But recently I read an op-ed piece that suggested the quote is misinterpreted. The common interpretation of this is that you need to have a lot of money to keep a boat. The editorial suggested that the point of it was more about how you value boating, not how much money you have. For those of us who have the urge (disease?), there is simply no question, we're going to be out on the water. It may be a super yacht or it may be a kayak, but we're going to do it.

Remember there is no such thing as a practical boat, unless it's a work boat. All pleasure boating is impractical. In the same sense, there is no such thing as an affordable boat if you don't value boating.

I will disagree with those in the thread who would argue against your wife's viewpoint. I think that would only increase friction. My opinion is to keep the peace and get a boat that costs less to maintain. Working longer hours in order to keep the boat is not logical, it would end up taking away from sailing time. Going into debt is even worse.

G. J.
 
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