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45' + blue water cruiser

18K views 35 replies 15 participants last post by  outbound 
#1 ·
I have been in the market looking for a boat to travel around the world on. I found an older boat i had liked but something in my gut says stay away so im going to. I recently looked into new boats and im considering either a catalina 445 or the 470. I will be living aboard with my girl friend soon to be fiance and my best friend will be traveling with us. Does anybody have any thoughts, ideas or suggestions on any other boats to consider; or are these two the best. All the research i have done says both are great boats.
 
#2 ·
I too am looking at a Catalina 445. I plan on going to factory later in the month. I have talked to Mr Douglas to make some modifications to make it more blue water friendly and he agreed to them all except we are working on a solution for another fuel tank around 40 gallons. Some of the modifications are move the compass to the helm stations, a door for the aft walk through to the swim platform, change the mast out from furling to traditional mast, move chartplotter to top of cockpit table, B&G electronics vs Raymarine, Refrigeration from air cool to keel cool, foot pump at galley sink, starboard settee to full bench vs twin seats, inside cabin top handrails and higher fiddles in all the cabinetry. Also change out the OEM sails to Mack sails.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Well I have a suggestion for you:

All 45 new cruisers on the market have potential for what you want but none of them, except partially in very expensive boats, come prepared for that and it seems that you don't have the knowledge or the experience to real know what is missing.

Melrna is commanding from Catalina one of the boats you have mentioned, one adapted for what you want. she is an experienced sailor and knows what would be necessary to add to a boat to make it fit for living aboard and do extended cruising with ocean passages in mind. All that she said makes sense and I can add some more things (that probably she had commanded anyway) like a bigger alternator, bigger capacity AGM batteries, removable stay for storm sail, a top performance anchor, an autoprop propeller.

As a basis why do you not start by commanding to Catalina a 445 with the specifications Melrna has ordered and start from there?

However you have to consider that the main reason why standard boats come not equipped like that is because it would be expensive. So be prepared to pay a lot more than what would cost a standard equipped 445.

Regards

Paulo
 
#5 ·
THere is a Jeanneau SO49iP in the NW US ready to travel the world right now, in fact, has been from the NW to Oz and back. if you want used, this might be an option too.

Reality is, as noted, MANY of the lower priced boats you are looking at, including Catalina, may not be totally setup from the get go for offshore work. As most will be coastal cruisers.

Some of the things Melrna has asked for are good starts. May of these can be added later, but if you can get them done from the get go, you will be better off. probably cheaper than done later.

Marty
 
#8 ·
THere is a Jeanneau SO49iP in the NW US ready to travel the world right now, in fact, has been from the NW to Oz and back. if you want used, this might be an option too.

Reality is, as noted, MANY of the lower priced boats you are looking at, including Catalina, may not be totally setup from the get go for offshore work. As most will be coastal cruisers.

Some of the things Melrna has asked for are good starts. May of these can be added later, but if you can get them done from the get go, you will be better off. probably cheaper than done later.

Marty
I knew you would come up with a Jeanneau, but that was my first thought also. Seem a bit more sturdy than standard production boats, and lots out there cruising the world. Benitieau First in that size range would be pretty blue capable, and really fast.

Otherwise I think I might go for a recently refit older more "high end" boat in the same size range.

Now living with girlfriend and best friend, I don't know about that. Perhaps I have just seen too many movies! :laugher:laugher
 
#6 · (Edited)
Thanks you all for your input. I have experence sailing but not much blue water experince( well not any in the last 10 yrs). I have been considering modifications thats also why im looking at the 470. Which has alot of the things yall suggested to modify. I also love on the 470 that the wheel stations are completely independent of each other and they are not like that on the 445. i have looked at a few jennauas and also looked at a defour 525 as well. I have also looked into the endevour 52 but hvent found as much info as i would like, but i have heard from a few ppl that its a good boat and would suit my needs well. So far the catalina 470 is my main choice but just trying to make sure i dont leave anything out. Since this is going to be my home an transport for the next 5 or 6 yrs i want something that will be durable to handle any conditions i run into, wont have stuff breaking all the time( i know things will break it happens at sea). Also i want it to be fairly comfortable to live on. So please if you have information or more input please feel free to give more.
Also update im going to see the broker tomorrow and will discuss some of those options and updates yall listed above. Does anyone have experience on either boat in blue water?
 
#9 ·
Paul,

YEAHHHHH I do the opposite of CD when it comes to Jeanneau vs catalina. BUT, being as jeanneau builds the MOST quantity of sailboats per year than any other builder, with beneteau being a small bit behind..........It's frankly no wonder you see a lot of them sailing the world vs other brands. They do sell and market to a degree, the ability out of the box to do so.

I will say one thing about catalina as merlna and CD attest to. Is Catalina will semi sorta do a semi custom for people. Not sure you will get that from the GBeneteau boats. There is with in that group a custom boat building branch in France, where they make true custom boats, including all the catamarans for waterworld, along with a minitransat boat for a jeanneau employee who did one of the races across the atlantic last summer.

At the end of the day, ANY brands 40+' boat, really should be able to cross and ocean if properly prepared, people more or less know what they are doing etc. There are some already ready to go, like the one I alluded to earlier. Mid 300K IIRC. IT would cost you more than that to setup a new 49iP! or even some of the mid 40' boats.

It all comes down to ambiance frankly between these higher volume production boats, you either like the brand, or you do not.......leave it that!

Marty
 
#11 ·
Paul,

At the end of the day, ANY brands 40+' boat, really should be able to cross and ocean if properly prepared, people more or less know what they are doing etc.
Marty
I agree. I am also willing to cross the ocean on any 40+' boat right of the box from the factory.

If the money is not an issue and willing to keep the boat for at least 10 years, buy a new boat is the way to go.

In the last 2 years, I have sailed with so many old boats. Every time, there was major crisis in the worst situation that I had to jump in the fix the problem. When you open the panel, it is filthy, messy and spaghetti wiring all over the place. I asked who did this mess, the owner said the boat yards. :(

Buying a new production boat, at least you will have a decent company behind your toy. You can't put a value of the new boat smell. Besides, new boats have better hull design, better and tight specs, more efficient sail plan. :)
 
#10 · (Edited)
Well im using little boat sales out of kemah,tx. I really like the 445 and thats what im going to get i think. The broker and I went over what im doing and wanting and gave some more great ideas and is gonna c what catalina can do. The broker is also a captain and has done some of what im wanting to do already. So i gave your ideas and some of my own. I didnt see the need fr more rails down below though.
Ok so a new developement i was just refered to the beneteau oceanis 54. Any thoughts about this boat. I like the look and its 3 ft wider than the 445 and ive seen alot of that series at the marinas around kemah and seabrook. Since a 55 ft is my ideal boat as far as size goes. Any information or thought about the boats which is going to serve my purpose best
 
#12 ·
I am in the middle of writing a book about long distance cruising based on the experiences of people who are doing it. The remarkable thing is the wide range of boats you see in obscure places in the Pacific or Indian Ocean. There is no make or model that you see a great many examples of.

Don't know your budget, but I get a sense you do not have a great deal of experience in this regard. Having said that, if I were in your shoes I would widen my search substantially. I would not buy a new boat since you are unlikely to know exactly what to ask for. Rather I would look for a boat about five years old that has been set up by a knowledgeable (and rich) owner. I would look first at higher makes like Amel and Halberg-Rassy. With five years' depreciation I suspect the price might be similar to a new Catalina and these boats are certainly better in my opinion.

Interestingly in my research many monohull owners with boats in the 45 to 50' range say they would like to have a good catamaran around 45' if money were not an object. This is interesting considering that these are people with 10k to 100k miles of cruising experience.
 
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#13 ·
....

Interestingly in my research many monohull owners with boats in the 45 to 50' range say they would like to have a good catamaran around 45' if money were not an object. This is interesting considering that these are people with 10k to 100k miles of cruising experience.
Yes, that comes as no surprise. Most of them are not talking about condos but about proper seaworthy boats like outremer. I guess you would be interested to talk with myocean, an experienced member that just bought a outremer to circumnavigate. Maybe I am confusing things but I think he is a professional sailor and among the boats he had considered was a Norhaven;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#15 ·
Thanks to all of your input. Since my last post a broker friend of mine did recomend higher end boats. I have been looking at the amel 64, based on referalls, reputation, ability and disign for single handed sailing. Also i like the full dodger. I have looked into multi hulls and have heard very good things. However i have also heard they are not set up for single handed sailing. im not really worried about the cost since you cant put a price on a quality boat that you rely on, as well as your skill to keep you alive and handle whatever is thrown at u
 
#16 · (Edited)
Certainly not if you can pay the price;)

Amel 55 Video - YouTube

Amel is a great boat but if you are on that price region you may also look at any of these boats:



or at the Alliage, Allures, OVNI or Boreal the boats that traditionally are used by French sailors as voyage boats:

Bienvenue chez Boreal

Alliage, chantier naval aluminium : construction de voilier en alu, et bateau à moteur avec coque alu

Allures Yachting

Alubat, chantier de bateaux en aluminium sur mesures, les sables d'olonne, vendée, constructeur de bateau | Alubat | des bateaux en aluminium à vos mesures





HR64 Test - YouTube







Regards

Paulo
 
#17 · (Edited)
A used cruising boat will always be cheaper, and will have the kinks worked out. The Morgan OI ketches are very hardy vessels. I've often heard that Catalinas are too built too light for extended deep water cruising.

The Amels are very high-end vessels, and a used ketch fitted out for cruising would be almost paradisaical. 64' is a lot of boat, and some marinas and boatyards wouldn't be able to handle something that size.

A cheaper get-in price can mean some real funds left over for upgrades.

Sailing for extended periods off-shore and anchoring out for long periods with two males and one female aboard is a formula for trouble. The other guy needs his own squeeze to prevent envy and unequal ogling. Sometimes people can make a one male, multiple females, arrangement work, but the women must be very good friends and be willing to share. Especially in the galley.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I've often heard that Catalinas are too built too light for extended deep water cruising.
We bought our 400 Catalina as I expected it would take us anywhere on this planet. In the past two years, we have put about 5000 miles on this boat in most any weather you might imagine short of hurricane force seas. My wife and I are not strangers to heavy weather.

This past October at the Annapolis boat show, my wife asked Gerry Douglas if our 400 was capable of doing what we expected. Gerry said structurally, the 400 has no issue taking us pretty much anywhere.

Like any boat, Catalina or otherwise, you will have to outfit the boat for a trip.

One aspect I really like about the big Catalinas is the standing rigging. The big Catalinas have 8 shrouds supporting the mast. Four lowers, two mid and two uppers. The 400, 470 and all the 5 series have the same design and have dual back stays. Even the smaller 315 has the same design.

What is really impressive is the attachments of the shrouds extend down through the deck and attach to heavy beams glassed into the hull near the hull grid. This creates an incredibly stiff shroud system that does not depend on the upper hull, deck or inner bulkheads to support the shrouds and mast. Very little reaction forces are applied through those elements of the boat.

There are very few boats with shroud supports that appear to be as robust as this design. Many boats attach the shroud at the outer hull chainplates that transfer the reaction forces through the hull, deck and bulkheads to the keel step (or reaction post).

Inspection of the shroud system including anchor points is significantly easier than inspection of chainplates buried in the side of hulls as in most boats.

In addition, the forstay attchment is a massive stainless steel structure firmly anchored at the bow extending back and around the bow. Dual backstays distribute the load to the outer edge of the stern hull where its greatest stiffness is.

At this past Annapolis boat show we looked at all the boats, my wife came to the conclusion that our 400 is better than most. The only boat she will replace our 400 with is either a 470 Catalina or a 465 Island Packet.
Hey.. she's the boss.. I am not going to argue..;)
Bryce
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the input and it would be 2 girls and i. However i dont think my best friend will come or if she does it will be short spurts. I have seen that some marinas would have a difficulty with that but i also have no problem anchoring out in the harbor and taking the dingy into shore for food and supplies. But in bad weather that can become a bit of a problem, but not to bad. Ill be most of my time in europe and the south pacific, where i dont think it will be much of a problem.
 
#20 ·
Could be I was being told about day-sailor versions. People will buy too little boat, and then try to go places.

Hidden (glassed-in) chainplates are bad. They quietly corrode until a load causes a failure. Probably in a real blow.

Stainless steel always belongs in the sunlight and fresh air.

Ryusui, you shouldn't post that a girl will come only for short spurts. Jest.

However, it's not just marina docking that's an issue for larger vessels but also haul-outs. The bigger the boat, the more they charge and the fewer the boat-yards.
 
#21 ·
Cherev thanks for the tip. I didn't mean it like that. But yes I can see how it could be a pain. I may be looking at too much boat for my needs but I do plan on going anywhere and everywhere I can. I would rather go for more than what I need vs go for what works and find out I did need it. That's the main reason for the amel. It should go wherever I wish and stand up well in big blow.
 
#22 ·
... I would rather go for more than what I need vs go for what works and find out I did need it. That's the main reason for the amel. It should go wherever I wish and stand up well in big blow.
Actually, a tight strong small boat may stand up to a big blow better than an impressive larger one. I wasn't seeking to dissuade as much as pointing out that anything over circa 45' - 47' is a lot of boat for three people, one or two of which may not have really salty experience.

The Amels have a good rep.
 
#23 ·
That's the biggest reason I choose the amel. They have great rep and are designed to be handled singlehanded if necessary. The other thing I love abi ut rhe amel is the storage locker or the dinghy in the back of the boat. If been advised when doing ocean crossing you don't want your dinghy hanging off the back of the boat, cause one bad wave and your having big problems. Its hard finding something like that on a smaller boat. Plus i'll eventually be doing charters once I get my captains licence. So a larger boat works out well for that as well
 
#24 ·
Where to draw the size line is a tough question. I tend to think of it in terms of what can I single-hand even when I'm cruising with family. I've been with some people male or female that I'm sure can keep going longer than I. On the other hand I've been with some where after the first wave over the bow they go below and are done.
So if you have a very small crew, two or three especially if they are not very experienced, I think that the chance of you in reality being single handing is very high. Between seasickness, exhaustion, injury and fear your crew options can go down very quickly.
So if you agree with the above assessment the next step to think about is how much are you going to rely on power winches.
What it the biggest anchor you can manually haul up?
What it the biggest main sheet you can hoist?

You may decide the extra size is worth it but you are making a choice that you have to rely on the power. Not necessarily a bad choice but a significant one, at least in my opinion.
 
#25 ·
Well davidpm I agree with everything you said. That's another reason for the amel it's a ketch rig. So it will be easier than a sloop right of the bat. Also its sail size is alittle smaller than some of the boats ive looked at in the 50 to 55 ft range. Im planning on having atleast 1 crew be seasick and if one gets injured I can endure solo for about 72 hrs with no sleep is what ive found out over the yrs. So I should be good. But im trying to look at this from every angle. Hence the ketch rig and a boat that is designed for single handed sailing. Also im having the other to get asa certified just incase I get severly injured I know they can manage without my help. Odds are that wont happen however its worth it to me to make sure if it does we will be ok.
 
#26 ·
For me I think I'd choose a smaller boat to start.. do your epic cruise and if at the end of that you're still interested in doing charters look for something more appropriate. You may find your opinions shifting over time and with the experience.

For a crew of 3 or 4 long distance voyaging I'd think 40-45 would do nicely. Certainly today there are boats that size that could still handle charter parties of reasonable size for a short time. Overall costs go down (and up) exponentially with boat size...
 
#27 ·
Ok so I have one last question. What is the difference between lead keels and iron keels? It seems that's most of the high end boats use lead and the majority of the more price conscious boats use iron. Besides the cost what are the advantages to either if any and what are the disadvantages if any?
 
#28 ·
Plenty of discussion on that topic elsewhere on this forum.

Lead is heavier, so ballast can be smaller/more compact.. lead is more forgiving (softer) in a grounding situation but some say that can actually transfer more forces to hull structures.

Many of todays bulbed/torpedo keels couldn't be made purely of lead, lead lacks structural rigidity on its own. Usually they are steel/iron fins with lead bulbs attached.

Iron keels can be a PITA if not properly sealed.. each haulout is a rust scraping and repainting nightmare.. if properly sealed it's no different than lead in that regard as long as you don't compromise the membrane.

Keel bolts can be more easily changed/renewed in most iron keels, very difficult to do in lead keels as they are almost always "J" bolts cast into the keel when it's poured.

Personally I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker (esp with today's newer boats) but for many an iron keel would be.. (We've owned 5 boats so far over the past 30 years, 3 were iron, two lead)
 
#29 ·
Well the reason I asked is ive decided that im going to go with a cheaper and simpler boat, since this will be my first large boat that ive owned. Im debating between the Catalina 445 and the beneteau oceanis 55. I love the amel but I feel i'll get more out of doing everything manually vs with a push button. Right now my gut is leaning towards the 445 and it has a lead keel. I like the oceanis 55 but I have some reservations about the quality. It is much fancier than the catalina but its price per foot is way less. Im not sure if the quality is as good. Also I do like the layout of the 445 a lot, also my broker is going to make some modification to her so that she fits what im wanting to do. I never thought finding a good boat would be so hard... but this decision is from yalls suggestions as well. So I thank all of you for your imput and please keep it coming.
 
#30 ·
..... I'm debating between the Catalina 445 and the beneteau oceanis 55. .....
Nice problem to have!!;):cool:

FWIW at last year's boat show we much preferred the C445 over the Bene.... but we weren't looking at the 55... big difference in that 10 feet!!
 
#31 ·
With the amount of money you seem willing to spend on a 445 and if fit and finish are high on your priority list, I would think you should be taking a close look at the Tartans. You may have to shorten the LOA a bit to fit your budget, Than again I don't know your budget, but a T4000 is a beautiful boat and would be a real head turner.
I know, it is sacrilegious to even mention the word Tartan around here, but they seem to have put all the nastiness of the past behind them.
Talk with some recent owners and see what they have to say. I see plenty of new Tartans on our docks because the local dealer is located on our premises. Every time a new owner takes delivery of one, they always seem to end up as dock neighbors.
Tartan Yachts Product Catalog - Model Overview
 
#32 ·
Faster I agree I don't care much for the layout of the beneteau 41 or 45. Ive looked at them both. Im not concerned about money really, but I figure im going from a sc21 raceboat to a 44 ft cruising boat is a big step the systems are very different, and not wanting to drop a lot of money right away. Ive also sailed larger boats bur that was day sailing much different than what im planning. I will give the tartans a look. Im open to anyboat but so far the c445 seems to best fit my general uses and could probley race her also.
 
#34 · (Edited)
That's the reason I really liked the oceanis 54 but they don't make them anymore. I really like the set up of twin nav stations ( one at each helm) but I don't like the arch or the iron keel. Also im a little concerned about the quality of it compared to the catalina 445. The extra 11 feet would be great and the layout underneath is amazing but it all boils down to quality. I know Catalina is good I have a lot of friends who race them and you can find them everywhere and most people have nothing bad to say about them but I hear a lot of negative about beneteau. So it makes me a little uneasy. However as you suggested the first series is nice and I like the layout of the first 50. I am planning on attending the Miami boat show next month and kemah boat show so I hope to put evrrything at rest after I get on all the boats and do more research. As always I appreciate any ideas and or thoughts.
 
#35 ·
Just a question to everyone reading this thread, why have Valiant, Pacific Seacraft yachts been excluded. After 1985 the blister issue with the valiants was sorted and they where made right up to 2011. They are a blue water boat and setup perfectly for singlehanded sailing and have 2 to 3 people on board. Also I like the look of Pacific Seacraft yachts, I am planning on getting a Valiant 42 or a Pacific Seacraft 40 to 44. I am looking at doing the same sort of sailing as you mentioned. And with the dingy issue porta boat are a option. Very light and folds away to nothing. But when will a boat manufacture incorporate a jetski into the boat, or allow one to be loaded on deck. (weight could be a bit high)
Cheers Bubbles
 
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