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Poor 'none' Factory Response

11K views 35 replies 9 participants last post by  klacko 
#1 · (Edited)
Has anyone tried to get assistance from the factory recently? I can not get anyone to return calls or emails concerning needed replacement parts. Is Pacific Seacraft in financial trouble? I am looking for the standard cabinet doot locking latch that was used in the head in 1997. Can anyone help with this? Thank you.
As a follow up to the previous posting, I have received a phone call today 19Jan07 from Robin at PS. I certainly wish him and the PS Company the best and have no ill will towards them. I have cleaned, polished, cut holes into, maintained, replaced, tuned, etc. my refurbishing of the PS32PH this winter while it's in heated storage. There isn't one place on this boat, well maybe one, that I havent stuck my head into or camera into for a capture that hasn't impressed me. After owning 2 production boats, one new, it is absolutely enjoyable fitting out this outstanding vessel knowing that it is going to be enjoyed for years to come. PS did it right on my PH and Robin states that this is still their goal. I like him and wish all at PS a great year. Happy New Year Pacific Seacraft!
 
#2 · (Edited)
After posting the previous message online I did receive a followup call 'naturally I missed it' and an Email from Robin at Pacific Seacraft. I tried twice unsecessfully to return the call before closing time and never got through, and I replied to the email. My inquiry process started 12/02 and there has been a rumbling from the west but still nothing concrete has occured. Sure am glad that I am not stranded somewhere waiting for this factory to deliver.

I finally gave up on PS ordering and receiving the requested parts from a different company. What a waste of my time dealing with them over these.
 
#3 ·
Something is going on. I was speaking to John at PS about a different latch and some other items, and he sort of ignored me. He'd talk to me on the phone when I called, but just not do what he said he would. Then, just last Friday a week ago, I was informed that John was gone, that they'd had some problems, and a new person for customer service was to start the following Monday.

I have not tried to call the new person back since then. Has your poor experience been recently, last week, for example?

gary peacock
S/Y GLORY
PSC#& hull161
 
#4 ·
Gary,
Yes, last week and the week before that and the week before that. I must not be an important customer to Pacific Seacraft. I purchased a used, somewhat neglected, but little used Pilothouse and am refurbishing it to the highest standard, hence even the broken catch on the cabinet door in the head is important. I am impressed with the construction of the Pilothouse and when I called PS 3 years ago, I was put in contact with the President which really surprised me. He was a very warm and friendly fellow and I decided, because of him that I would look further into his companies vessels. His attitude towards PS was impecable...he impressed me. I can't believe that my recent and second experience is but a misnomer; a fluke in the system. The PS website has been recently down, or most of it has been. That is the reason for my comment on an earlier posting if they might be in financial trouble? I certainly have no ill will for PS or John or Robin, I just need parts for the boat that they built. I will keep this group abreast of any new developments.
Rick
 
#5 ·
Rick,

I was at the factory two weeks ago in connection with the boat they are building for me. John was replaced by Robin Bradshaw. There have been major changes at PSC recently, including personnel. Robin is a welcomed addition (worked there previously for many years). The website, apparently, is to be upgraded. Unfortunately, big changes can sometimes lead to a little confusion in the middle of them. Hopefully, that will smooth out soon. What follows is a press release explaining a lot. I got it off the sailnet list for PSC.

Dave

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Sept. 8, 2006, Fullerton, California USA

MAJOR COURSE CHANGE FOR PACIFIC SEACRAFT CORP.

At the August dealer gathering in Fullerton, Pacific Seacraft Corporation unveiled a bold initiative that promises to put the California yacht manufacturer at the forefront of the cruising sailboat market. In addition to their own Pacific Seacraft traditional-style cruisers, they now manufacture and market the Saga brand of high performance cruisers. The recent addition of Saga models to its line optimizes Pacific Seacraft’s production efficiency and also attracts a fresh new sailing clientele to its expanded line of products. The company’s new business strategy is designed to capitalize on the synergies between the brands.

A key element in Pacific Seacraft’s future plans is the recent appointment of Allan Poole to the CEO position. Mr. Poole is a life-long industry veteran with solid management credentials from executive stints at several leading North American and European boat builders. He began his career in Great Britain as a boatbuilder immediately after graduation from Strathclyde University in Glasgow with a degree in engineering. Subsequently, he has held high level positions at several US and Canadian firms. A lifelong sailor, his sailing resume ranges from world championship IOR “Ton Cup” racing to cruising around the Caribbean with his wife and family.

At the recent Pacific Seacraft Dealer meeting, Poole advised the dealers, “Pacific Seacraft is committed to expand on its 28 year record of building ‘America’s Best Cruising Sailboats’ (Editor’s note: according to Fortune Magazine) and not just rely on a well deserved reputation.”


(continued next page)


“I do see a golden opportunity to enhance the quality, durability and value of the Pacific Seacraft line by embracing technical advances made available to us in the 21st century.” Poole added, “The addition of Saga to our product line earlier this year introduced an array of modern materials and methods to our plant and its employees. The Pacific Seacraft line can profoundly benefit from this synergy as we apply these advances to our Pacific Seacraft brand. In the same vein the current Sagas we are now building have already been blessed with a myriad of refinements in specification and quality upgrades taken from the Pacific Seacraft legacy as we have adapted the Saga product to suit our standard in-house practices.”

Although the specifics were not made public, Poole indicated planning for business through 2008 was well developed. Production capacity has recently been increased with new additions to the shop staff to meet the orders already booked for fall through early spring and to accommodate the new Saga product. Further plant hires will be required by year end to accomodate the fall boat show order influx. Soon announcements will be made of new additions to customer service, product development, and marketing departments. And finally, two completely new Pacific Seacraft models are now under development with one just handed over to Bill Crealock this past week.

Poole concluded, “I am excited and invigorated by this challenge. The strong history and time-honored traditions of this company will be respected. It’s an honor and an opportunity to take the helm at this time in its history and guide it to a new level of prominence in this millennium. I sense the same kind of excitement as the thrill of taking departure for a long ocean voyage --- it’s the beginning of a great adventure. I invite our dealers, our owners and fans, as well as industry observers to pay close attention to Pacific Seacraft. We have a lot of news forthcoming.”


BACKGROUND:
Pacific Seacraft Corporation is a luxury yacht manufacturer located in Fullerton, California (Los Angeles area). The company handcrafts and markets two lines of yachts, Pacific Seacraft (Dana 24, Pacific Seacraft 31’,34’,37’, 40’ and 44’, all designed by William Crealock) and Saga Yachts (Saga 409 a Tony Castro design; Saga 43, and 48 both by Robert H. Perry). The Pacific Seacraft line of yachts is marketed to discriminating cruising sailors desiring “retro” styling and traditional features. The Saga brand is marketed to technically savvy sailors desiring high performance in an offshore cruiser with up-to-the-minute features and styling.

Pacific Seacraft has been twice cited by FORTUNE MAGAZINE as “The 100 best products of their type, built in America.” Pacific Seacraft was also featured in volumes I and II of the bestsellers, The World’s Best Sailboats, authored by Ferenc Mate. The Saga 48 was named “2004 Boat of the Year”. The Saga 43 was also Boat of the Year, First Runner-up in 1996.
 
#6 ·
Dave,

Thanks for your reply/post. I did read part of the news release in a recent sailing magazine. Which model are you having built and how long will it take to build it? How has your experience been with PS? HAve you asked about customer support and parts availabilty after the sale?

Have you read about Robert Egg and the Norsea brand of boat that is built in California? Many complaints which have been well documented in court hearings and posted on the net are still viewable. None the less, it's a stout and beautiful boat, "lapstrak hull" and can even be trailered. "well, transported by a capable tow vehicle."

Rick
 
#7 ·
Rick,

We are having a PS34 built. It should be done around the first part of February. I first went to the factory in June. On this last visit, I saw big improvements. The place was very busy. There were a lot more people working on boats. Allan Poole is making big changes in every facet of the business from marketing to production and, of course, this takes some time. He has plans for an online store for aftermarket stuff. He is a very personable and energetic guy with lots of experience organizing boatbuilding companies for success.

I think you got caught in between the change in the customer service person. I think you'll find Robin much more helpful. If you check the PSC list you'll find a bunch of responses to the announcement of his coming aboard with very positive comments. Many of the comments had to do with how helpful Robin had been finding obscure parts. I'd give him a try. Also, you might try posting on the List. There are a lot more people frequenting it, and PSC marketing and sales people monitor it and have responded to issues frequently. Good luck with your boat and I hope you find your part.

Dave
 
#8 · (Edited)
Robin found

Dave,
I was finally able to catch up to Robin and I have ordered the needed parts. Thanks so much for your up to date information on PSC. I bet your new boat is going to be marvelous. Are you going through a dealer or directly through the factory? February 1 is not that far away, it's got to be exciting for you anticipating the new arrival? Where will you be sailing her and have you picked a name yet? What sort of accessories have you ordered to be included? What electronics have you chosen?

I have installed a rather inexpensive compaq laptop at the inside helm on a west marine adjustable swing bracket using maptech software with a wass enabled usb gps. It is a sevicable arrangement. I finally figured out that there are different light intensity settings and even day/night/fog/etc screens that are software adjustable that will produce different colors "even a nice dim red for night ", of course after I sailed into Tawas harbour at night being throughly light blinded by the screen. I am looking at installing an XM weather system but am still hunting for the best price and will wait untill after the Strictly Sail show in February before I purchase it. The best price I have found to date is $675.00, new. There was a private owner from California that was advertising a used unit that was never installed for I think $500.00 but I am hessitant on purchasing electronics in that fashion. The XM weather will connect to the laptop through usb. I have seen this in use and it's awesome. I am still looking for the right supplier for an autopilot, maybe at the boat show in February?

After owning one new boat and working on it for 5 years and selling it for what I paid for it, plus sailing the dog breath out of her, keeping her up to the highest standard, including inside heated storage, I discovered that there are sailors that will pay top dollar for a vessel that is ready to go in bristol condition. It's darn near as enjoyable to work on a boat as it is to sail one.
Rick
***********************************************************************
An update on ordered parts secured witha full credit card payment placed with Robin at PS. I ordered 2 kits 3 weeks ago and as of this date, 9Jan07 nothing has arrived. An inquiry call has been placed to Robin at PS.
 
#9 ·
Rick,
I'm glad you were able to connect. I went through the factory only because when I called there in April, they took the ball and ran with it. I think it would be different now because Allan Poole is more dealer oriented and would probably have directed me to a dealer. Yes, we can barely contain ourselves and the stress. Allan says having a boat built is like having a baby, joyous, but stressful.

The boat's name will be the Swan. We will immediately prepare her for a circumnavigation beginning in May or November depending upon whether we can beat the hurricane season or not. Having cruised bluewater before, I am a fan of going light on the systems. In fact, I have ordered the boat sans some of the stock systems (pressure/hot water, shower, wheel steering, etc.). Allan jokes that he has never seen anyone go into the negative on the options.

We will have a Furuno GPS and backup with simple lat/lon readout and rely on paper charts, many of which I have leftover from the last voyage. We will also have the good old Plath sextant aboard, just in case. We will use a laptop weatherfax from NOAA SSB (ham) transmissions. Other than a handheld VHF, that will be it. The West Marine arm is good. The autopilot will be a Monitor vane steering system.

I totally agree with you about keeping a boat up to stock. Not only will buyers appreciate it and pay extra, but anything else is sacrilegious.

Dave
 
#10 ·
Dave,
I Never had a boat built, but I have built homes. The stress in building homes for me was caused by sub contractors that didn't do what they agreed to or would cause a problem with other sub contractors that were trying to do their job. Firing a hot head is not my favorite thing to do especially when he has a hammer in his tool pouch. Why did I post all of this? Because I am curious what stress you are experiencing having a boat built for you?
Rick
 
#11 ·
Rick,
I am a worrier by nature. My stress comes from making sure everthing is comming together timewise. We have sold our house to afford this and are living in a hovel month to month. We are arranging storage for everything we own that's not going on the boat. We are collecting all the bits that will go on the boat and they are piled high in the hovel (chain, anchors, stove, etc.). We live 1000 miles from where the boat will be launched, so we are having to organize getting all the bits we have collected for the boat to the boat after having sold our cars. We are both still working so we have the timing associated with leaving our jobs involved. We are having to rearrange all our finances for an extended stay out of the country, including international health insurance, etc.. All of this revolves around when exactly the boat will be ready, which is a moving target, although PSC has done their best to pin it down to within a few weeks plus or minus. This launch date is muddled by all of the custom stuff I've thrown at PSC to do/not do to the boat. Finally, we are trying to get everything done/installed before May 1 and the start of the hurricane season so we can squeeze by to the South Pacific. You probably get the picture.
Dave
 
#15 ·
Customer Service

I called in looking for a pair of midship cleats (never originally installed on my 34) and got a return call from Robin after 3-4 days.

He promised to let me know if they still stocked them and to get me a measurement for where the factory installs them. He also gave me a source if I wanted to order them direct. I told him that I would prefer to get them through PSC (if they're going to the trouble to look them up, they should make a few dollars).

I have not heard back for several weeks now, and will call back.

Last year, I had to call in about 3 times to get an answer, but when I ordered and paid for a fuel tank, they made it and shipped it very promptly. My yard will install it this winter.

I don't know how this experience compares to those of others on the list, but I'll post if anything unusual happens.
 
#16 ·
Customer Service/Warranty Issues for New Boat

We have had difficulties getting payment for warrantied parts for our boat-a one-year-old Saga 409 (Allan Poole, former owner of the now-defunct Saga Marine, now heads up Pacific Seacraft, where he continues to build Saga boats). We had to re-bed all the windows in our new boat early last summer-the original installment was extremely sloppy and leaked like crazy--and Pacific Seacraft assured us that they would take care of the bill for the job. Six months and many phone calls later, we still had not received any payment (we were even told once that 'the check is in the mail'). Finally, last month, we were told by Pacific Seacraft that they simply didn't have the money to pay us. Earlier this month, we did receive 50 percent of the cost for the rebedding, but we have no idea when or if we'll ever see the remaining balance, given what appears to be the shaky financial health of the company.

The whole process of buying a brand-new boat was unexpectedly difficult for us, both time- and cost-wise. We learned the hard way that purchasing a new boat is not like purchasing a new car, and any prospective boat buyers out there would be well advised to have a lawyer perform due diligence on any company they're planning to do business with. If anyone is considering the purchase of either a new Saga or Pacific Seacraft, I spent a long time last winter at Saga yachts in Canada trying to get my boat off the factory floor and I am very familiar with the management team that is now in place at PSC. I welcome any questions to the good, the bad and the ugly of our experience.
 
#17 ·
Sparrow 409,

Your experience seems to mirror mine when I bought a CS36 Merlin from CS Yachts many years ago. To have to pay most of the money before your boat is built is an unnerving process. Constant delays, rumours of insolvency and excuses from the manufacturer make for a lot of worrying. I got my boat out of the yard as soon as possible (some of the trim was unfinished) because if the boat's still in the factory it belongs to them even if you've paid 90% of it and can be seized by the sheriff if the company goes tits up. As it happened CS did not go bankrupt but stopped production soon after. Mr. Poole (General Manager at CS then I believe ) went on to build boats at Saga. As for my latest boat, I bought it when it was sitting in the dealers lot, new and complete. A much less stressful process. Good luck with your 409. Another Tony Castro boat like the CS34, CS36 Merlin and CS40.
 
#18 ·
No more thant 10% of the purchase price should be paid before delivery of the vessel and if they insist on more money than the additional funds should be held in an escrow account and not released until delivery and a satisfactory inspection by a marine surveyor. That way you have plenty of leverage over the process. If your funds are needed to get the work done that would indicate the company is on a shaky footing and you would be best advised to have the boat built elsewhere.
 
#19 ·
Pacific Seacraft & Saga

Thanks for your replies: Rick, your experience certainly does mirror mine, and Long Waterline, if I had had your advice before I signed the contract and forked over lots of cash I would have put it to good use.

Ironically, after I had pretty much paid for the boat entirely, a friend referred me to a thread on this website (see the Buying a Boat forum, and go to the SAGA YACHTS thread, then read post #11 by Reg Bates dated 12-12-2004). In hindsight, it is interesting to see this post (and the spirited defense of Saga that follows it). Reg's assessment of the situation seems spot on. I hope this doesn't presage for PSC what has happened to so many other builders: Saga, CS, Hinterhoeler...

Best,

Bert
 
#20 ·
Customer Service

I got a call back from Robin and a price for the cleats. He sounded frazzled, but was very courteous.

Hopefully they should be on their way.

I'll follow up if I don't have them in a couple of weeks (allowing for ground shipping to the east coast). If I don't post, you can assume I got them and that everything is fine.
 
#21 ·
Bert,

I don't know the ins and outs of your warranty issue, but some of your characterizations about Saga and PSC are not exactly spot on. Saga is not defunct; it moved to California and is now manufactured along with the PSC line under the same roof and headed up by the same CEO as Saga was. In the U.S. we usually characterize that as a merge, and the implications are usually not negative.

The reasons for that move have been spelled out in a number of articles and news releases in magazines and on the web, mostly having to do with the strength of the Canadian dollar against the U.S. dollar, which may have something to do with the delays you mentioned and the comments by Rick more than 2 years ago.

However, this is now. I am having a boat built by PSC. If you go to Fullerton, as I have, twice, you will see a number of Sagas, as well as PS's being built at any given time. I've found the factory very busy, working two shifts and reportedly turning out record numbers of boats. I have spoken with Robin twice this week. If anyone is experiencing delays in response, I suggest it is due to a group of very busy people trying to turn out boats as fast a possible while keeping unnecessary costs to a minimum. I also suggest that your individual experience does not necessarily extrapolate into presages of demise nor equate to legitimate reasons for anyone to either enter into or avoid doing business with PSC.

Dave
 
#22 ·
Dave...I have a lot of respect for the build quality and design of both the PS line and the Saga line. That said...the post purchase warranty issue Sparrow had seems worrisome assuming we have the full story from him. A merger does not allow one company to void legitimate warranty claims. Perhaps someone from PSC would like to respond here as to their side of things. But assuming Sparrow is correct, it might be a good plan for you to get a surveyor to go over your boat thoroughly before you make your final payment so that you have some leverage in the process for your boat.
 
#23 ·
Dave, Camaraderie,

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. It is clear that PSC is short of cash, but the need to “keep unnecessary costs to a minimum” should not be so squarely shouldered by the customer. This does not seem to me to be a good long term business plan. While it is true that I’m not privy to the specifics of the “merger,” the end result is that they are still building Sagas and thus need to decide whether they are going to honor their obligations incurred in Canada. At this point we have seen very little interest on their part in doing so. Both Saga and PSC have many loyal and devoted customers--we wish nothing more than to join their ranks. We would welcome PSC’s participation in this dialogue.

Bert, Amy, Nora & Rosie
Otherwise happy in the Med
 
#25 ·
Dave/Sparrow...thanks.
All....I have close friends who sold their home and business to embark on their blue water cruising dream on a brand new 42' beauty. They did not do a survey on taking posession and subsequently found some huge issues with the boat during the first 90 days of ownership. To keep the story brief...lawyers got involved...surveyors and yards got involved, they had to move off the boat for THREE years at their expense while the company dug in its heels over the more than $250K of defects repairs required. Finally after arbitration, the company took the boat back but my friends were out their costs and their sailing dream was over. (Sorry folks but i cannot name the boat or the company due to legal issues in the settlement).
My B.I.L. also purchased a 54' Hylas new a few years back and after shakedown had many 10's of thousands in required fixes. Hylas was good about this AND he had escrowed a certain amount so was covered.
The point is that many purchasers of new boats think of them as new cars and expect them to work nearly perfectly and get the same results in warranty if they find something wrong. Just not true all too often so the small expense of a surveyor can often pay off big time even on a new boat.
 
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