SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews
 Not a Member? 


Thread: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
03-17-2013 10:25 AM
Minnewaska
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
.....insurance companies are not in the business of "ensuring" anything...

I'm afraid Andrew is correct, the insurance guys and their lawyers ALWAYS win, in the end...
You're rightly pointing out the claims experience with many insurance companies. That is where a good agent/broker can help. Some pay out on a phone call, other argue everything. They know the difference and it is reflected in your premium. You decide which you prefer.

It is not necessary that they insurance company always wins. You just have to be properly protected with the proper carrier. Most that shop and buy their own insurance have absolutely no idea what they are doing. It would be like defending yourself in court.
03-17-2013 09:55 AM
caberg
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
on some level, I remain unconvinced that a liability policy would afford a truly bulletproof guarantee ...
The Allstates of today are truly evil. There still are some good insurance companies out there.
03-17-2013 09:49 AM
caberg
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Liability insurance is cheap, comparatively speaking. Everyone who does anything with a risk of loss should carry it. Of course, to protect your own assets, but also for others. Insurance is not some newfangled idea.

If you're fully covered under an owner's policy, that works. You might have liability coverage, but I'd at least determine if that's the case.
03-17-2013 08:59 AM
jameswilson29
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Estate planning and asset protection planning are best done well in advance of any mishap.
03-17-2013 08:55 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
.....I'm sure it's just a matter of time before I sink some client's million dollar baby, his own insurance refuses to cover the loss, and he turns to me for payback...
That's the rub. Even if the owner's insurance pays him, the insurance company may pursue you (subrogation) if you are the one that caused them the loss.
Yup, another good point...

For over 20 years of shooting IndyCar racing for a corporate client, I was required to carry my own liability insurance. I was able to obtain an umbrella policy that covered all of my professional activities, so I was presumably covered in the kind of situation we're talking about...

After I stopped shooting racing, I kept the policy for another year or so... When the economy went into the dumper, and the delivery business along with it, I let the coverage lapse, it simply wasn't worth it, along with other business expenses such as the ad I was running in POWER & MOTORYACHT... Now that business seems to be picking up again, I may have to re-visit the issue...

However, my recent/current experience - one that is shared with virtually everyone else in my neighborhood - with insurance companies in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy, is a sobering reminder that unless they happen to be in an unusually charitable mood, insurance companies are not in the business of "ensuring" anything... In this particular instance, I would have been ahead of the game had I carried no homeowner's insurance whatsoever for the past 20 years (my last claim was over 30 years ago), and "self-insured" instead... So, on some level, I remain unconvinced that a liability policy would afford a truly bulletproof guarantee in the event someone having no real understanding of boating/sailing becomes convinced I was truly negligent...

I'm afraid Andrew is correct, the insurance guys and their lawyers ALWAYS win, in the end...

And, when they don't, we as taxpayers and policy holders will wind up bailing them out, anyway... (grin)
03-17-2013 08:03 AM
Minnewaska
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimgo View Post
That's also where a good LLC makes sense. You have to run it properly, handle the finances properly, comply with all the (mostly straightforward) regulations, but it can keep the courts from "piercing the corporate veil" and coming after you personally. Think of it as another level of insurance. Sure, you may lose your business and all of its assets, but it lets you keep your own stuff, like your house. At least on the surface, it seems to make a lot of sense, but if you really want to get good advice, talk to a lawyer about it. Many will give you an short conversation for free or a minimal ($200-$500)charge.
If you are suggesting that you establish an LLC that the owner contracts with and you are an employee of the LLC, it will not have any impact on your personal liability. I know this, as they are used for aircraft all the time. The pilots are not protected. They either need to be named insureds on the LLC policy or carry their own.

In the lawsuit, both the LLC will be named, which is protected to the extent of its assets, as well as the Captain will be named personally for their actions. The LLC only creates a "veil" if you're not there.
03-17-2013 01:27 AM
jimgo
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

That's also where a good LLC makes sense. You have to run it properly, handle the finances properly, comply with all the (mostly straightforward) regulations, but it can keep the courts from "piercing the corporate veil" and coming after you personally. Think of it as another level of insurance. Sure, you may lose your business and all of its assets, but it lets you keep your own stuff, like your house. At least on the surface, it seems to make a lot of sense, but if you really want to get good advice, talk to a lawyer about it. Many will give you an short conversation for free or a minimal ($200-$500)charge.
03-16-2013 08:11 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Burton View Post
If the lawyers want to get you, they will....
It does not have to be that way. It's a choice.
03-16-2013 12:18 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
.....I'm sure it's just a matter of time before I sink some client's million dollar baby, his own insurance refuses to cover the loss, and he turns to me for payback...
That's the rub. Even if the owner's insurance pays him, the insurance company may pursue you (subrogation) if you are the one that caused them the loss.
03-16-2013 09:51 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Professional Liability Insurance for delivery or hiring crews

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"But don't make getting liability insurance any kind of priority."
All well and good to compare philospphies of life but that wasn't the OP's question.

Let's suppose one of you top experts hits a deadhead at night, stuffs a foot wide hole in the hull and loses a cheap quarter million dollar 40'er. The owner is a nice guy but his wife is really pissed at you and files suit, saying it was irresponsible of you to sail at night when you couldn't see what was out there. She gets a jury to agree and you get screwed. Hey, sure, you did everything right and **** happens, but that also includes courts making the wrong decisions and now you're being held liable for a quarter million dollars, and also the loss of her prize winning pomeritzu dogs who last were seen going down with the boat. They were prize-winning breed stock and gifts from Leona Helmsley, valued at another hundred grand for the pair.

You're screwed. You will now lose 350,000 dollars, from your house, your retirement funds (they're not all inviolate), your own boat, whatever you've got. It doesn't matter how good or professional you were, folks get caught up in this stuff all the time and SOME folks would really rather just buy insurance than risk the loss.

It has nothing to do with how qualified you are, how responsible you are, how experienced you are. It has to deal solely with how you chose to ensure against risk of loss.

Solo delivery captains may be the last cowboys, riding off with just a horse and saddle. Much of the rest of the world? Isn't quite so brave.
You're absolutely correct, of course, and there is certainly a good case to be made for carrying liability insurance... My response was simply more to the general tone of Andrew's musings, rather than to the OP's query (who seems to be getting a bit ahead of himself in certain respects, by thinking of purchasing a life raft before owning a boat, for example (grin))

I've always viewed the delivery business as a surprisingly 'intimate' one, as you're assuming command of a possession that is very dear to most clients... Personally, I cannot imagine having my own boat delivered by anyone else, and there has to be an extraordinary amount of trust involved, on the part of both parties... I've been lucky, since deliveries have never represented my sole source of income, I've usually had the luxury to pass on deals that didn't 'feel right', or that I sensed might turn into a real PITA... As with most any profession, one develops the ability to sense the likelihood of a particular client being one that might best be avoided within the first minute of a phone conversation... One of the first things I learned getting started out, is to always go with my gut feeling in that respect...

Obviously, guys like Andrew and I are still operating by modes of 'responsible behavior' that no longer apply... We've both gotten away with it for decades, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before I sink some client's million dollar baby, his own insurance refuses to cover the loss, and he turns to me for payback...

One thing I do have going for me that might help me avoid your scenario, however:

I would never, EVER run a boat with a pair of prize-winning Pomeritzus along for the ride... (grin)
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:02 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.