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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > USCG Certificate of Documentation
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-19-2013 12:43 PM
jimgo
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

I agree with Hello - give the USCG a call. I work with other federal agencies on occasion, and, while some of the folks fielding calls at the places I call aren't always the brightest candles in the bunch, they really do try, and most are willing to spend as long as necessary to make sure your question is answered. I suspect that, at an office like the Vessel Documentation Center, you'll get good, accurate advice very quickly.
03-19-2013 12:00 PM
hellosailor
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

Wollard, just pick up a phone and call the nice folks at the Vessel Documentation Center. Really, they enjoy answering the phones and giving out the right answers, and assuming you are a citizen, you've already PAID for their assistance. If no one calls, they'll be fired as superfluous. So...please, call them.

Roger-
"completely screwy" You got that right! If I walk into a "state" office with a federal document that says I own a specific titled property, and that state monkey doesn't want to recognize it...Oh gee, that's usually a federal crime and I don't waste my time arguing about it, I just drop a dime and file the complaint.
I had a recent discussion with a certain national financial institution that has a (sadly typical) policy of refusing to accept certain state legal papers claiming "you have to use our forms" and go chase down another notary for them. And as I explained to the nice rep who was helping me, I knew the state law on that one, and it did say that they didn't have to accept the state papers, but it also said in black and white that they would be fully accountable, with no limits, for any losses or damages caused by their failure to accept the papers. So I wasn't going to argue, I'd attempted service, and she might want to remind their legal department "unlimited damages" was the criteria now, have a nice day.
I got a phone call back a month later from the rep, saying that legal "would allow" the state papers for now but please, would it be convenient for me to fill out there set too, sometime at my convenience?

Carrot, stick. I only serve carrots ONCE at each meal.
03-19-2013 11:28 AM
TheWollard
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

Has anyone here ever purchased a vessel that had been documented by a previous owner, but not the seller (because the most recent owners were Canadian)?

I'm trying to find out if I submit forms like it's a new application or if I "renew" the registration for the vessel.

I looked it up, and MISS MARISOL is listed in the USCG historical records.

I can't find an answer on their website regarding my situation.
03-19-2013 11:05 AM
SVAuspicious
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
My boat is documented in a non-title state (Maine). If I were to decide to move to Maryland, the documentation would not be accepted as proof of ownership. I would have to go back to my storage unit in Maine (Iím a full time liveaboard), dig out my original title from Michigan and the whole paper trail of bills of sale since in order to register. I left all that paperwork there because I thought I had the ultimate proof of ownership when the majesty of the U.S. government was put behind my ownership. Wrong.
Not my experience in Maryland. Never had a title or ownership issue since moving here. DNR knows exactly what Documentation is and accommodates easily. You still need your tax sticker but that is a separate issue.
03-17-2013 05:14 PM
Roger Long
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
No need to chase URLS in long threads ..
The problem, according to the FL tax people in the URL's you didn't chase down, is that Maine does have a numbering system, but not for federally documented vessels. Therefore, #2 does not apply.

They could be completely wrong about this legally but proving it would cost a lot more than the fine and take a few years the way the court system works.

Their position is that, since I could give up my documentation and come to Florida with Maine numbers on the bow, my documentation does not constitute reciprocity.

The whole thing is completely screwy and it is quite possible that, the next time someone checks with the tax office, they'll be told you are right. However, given the bad law enforcement climate in Florida, I don't want to be arguing the point with some local cop.
03-17-2013 04:56 PM
hellosailor
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

No need to chase URLS in long threads that link to more URLS, Roger.
Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

That's the Florida law and if you notice it mentions the "90 day reciprocity period". You've got 90 days to obtain Florida numbers if you already have other state numbers, or a USCG documentation because your home state doesn't issue state numbers.
03-17-2013 03:45 PM
Roger Long
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Roger, the Florida laws are all on the web.
Yes, but read them carefully and then see the interpretations obtained directly from the FL tax people in the threads I provided links to.
03-17-2013 01:35 PM
hellosailor
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

Roger, the Florida laws are all on the web. They require registration of motor vehicles, including boats with auxiliary engines, within 90 days of arrival. You do not have to go there in advance, and if some bubba sheriff tries that con on you, he knows very well that he's wrong but that's one reason why Southern Justice is so well respected in much of the US. (Not.)

Florida is not the only state with that reputation. Motorists on I95 have complained about rip-offs for decades. Maryland has three school zones established on roads where there are no schools, or residences, simply in order to double speeding fines. Virginia still band radar detectors, even though the USSC spanked CT for doing the same thing over 20 years ago, and CT dropped their ban as a result.

Scoundrels and bullies are all over, not just among Florida watercops.
03-17-2013 10:33 AM
Roger Long
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoOkay View Post
Argyle38 nailed the response.
Although it should be noted that many states now do not recognize Federal Documentation. In theory, it is registration for vessels that are too itinerant to be considered based in a single state, those engaged in international or coastal trade, etc. It is also supposed to be the gold standard of proof of ownership.

My boat is documented in a non-title state (Maine). If I were to decide to move to Maryland, the documentation would not be accepted as proof of ownership. I would have to go back to my storage unit in Maine (I’m a full time liveaboard), dig out my original title from Michigan and the whole paper trail of bills of sale since in order to register. I left all that paperwork there because I thought I had the ultimate proof of ownership when the majesty of the U.S. government was put behind my ownership. Wrong.

Although it is enforced rarely, if you have a documented vessel without a state registration, you are subject to a heavy fine by any local cop the minute you cross the border into Florida. This has been covered by Cruisers.net and here:

I'll Never go to Florida Again - SailboatOwners.com

The presents a problem for cruisers like myself since my home state does not have a registration system for documented vessels. Owners of Maine documented vessel are supposed to pay a local excise tax and receive a decal but I’ve never seen the decal on a boat up there. Florida laws are so poorly explained and understood by the sometimes aggressive local law enforcement that I expect you could spend considerable time and money proving that the decal, which does not come with any state paperwork you can show, constitutes “state registration”. It’s really local registration.

The only way I can cross the Florida border 100% legally, it to go to Florida ahead of time and apply in person at a county tax office for a Florida state registration for which I need to have a physical Florida address, i.e., a street and not a mail box in the county at which I appear to make the application. Note that this is a county function whereas it is not clear that Florida accepts the local Maine excise tax as “state registration”.

Obviously, there are lots of Maine documented vessels and others without state registration cruising in Florida without a problem. However, every once in a while, a local cop gets questioned about how much time he’s spending running around in the town police boat and needs to go out and bring in some money to justify it. The state registration issue has been used often to fund BIU (Boating In Uniform).

BTW don’t bother mentioning the Sojourner’s Permit. It’s a separate issue and you can’t get it without complying with the above.

It is only inconsistent and infrequent enforcement that prevents this whole situation from being a big problem for full time cruisers. As states budgets get squeezed and they look for additional revenue, it will become worse. A wandering snowbird like myself, even with a documented vessel, could have three or more states claiming the need to register due to different requirements, legal residence, 30 day stay, 90 day stay, preponderance of use (Maryland), lack of other state registration (Florida), etc. You can only register in one state so 100% compliance with the law could have you sitting at borders for days while the paperwork gets done. I don’t even know when I enter a state whether I might become subject to registration requirements because I don’t have any fixed plans. It’s crazy.
03-17-2013 12:53 AM
jimgo
Re: USCG Certificate of Documentation

Ryan, CONGRATULATIONS! Somehow I missed the fact that you'd bought a boat. That's AWESOME!

I'm going to be going through this process, too, so thanks for starting this thread!
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