SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

31K views 156 replies 38 participants last post by  Cruisingdad 
#1 ·
I am planning on doing some deck work and everyone says this is the time to run lines to the cockpit. What lines should I run aft? Right now the only lines aft are the main sheet, jib sheets, topping lift and travelers. I was planning on running the cunningham and boom vang back. Should I do main halyard? Spin Halyard? I am going to be using an Asym. Spinnaker I assume the topping lift isnt needed? Anyone have before and after pics?
 
#39 ·
After having read and re-read this thread, I have come to the conclusion that I'd be better served placing a captain's chair on the cabin top near the mast and running a steering line to there.
;)
A couple of standing blocks to run the genny sheets back to the mast and a fairlead port and starboard for the 85% jib oughta do it. Add a couple more cleats to the mast and an old OB steering rig to the rudder shaft and I'll be set!

NOW I know the allure of a center-cockpit! LOL They *may* cost more; but save a ton of boat-bux on additional deck hardware and line!
 
#40 ·
The danger of running most/all lines to the cockpit is that you quickly 'get out of practice' in going forward in stink conditions.

Plus, it puts an inordinate amount of crap into the cockpit which to trip over, etc. .... this from someone who has 35 control lines in one of his sportboat cockpits.
 
#41 ·
The danger of running most/all lines to the cockpit is that you quickly 'get out of practice' in going forward in stink conditions.

Plus, it puts an inordinate amount of crap into the cockpit which to trip over, etc. .... this from someone who has 35 control lines in one of his sportboat cockpits.
I suppose there is something to this, but I just had to go out in 8 footers and it came back without a second thought. I think it was like riding a bicycle, a really wobbly one. :)

Tripping is another good point, although, tripping on the cabin top ain't fun either.
 
#42 ·
I'm another with everything running aft. Can not find a good cabin top photo of the two sides........The one thing I am missing, the self steering mechanism/auto pilot! Other than tying off the tiller which works ok motoring, have not SH'd enogh to make this work as of yet.

Reality is, both options work, but as mentioned, if you can get to things easy, you will adjust, if not.....this may not be good!

Marty
 
#43 ·
Yeah speaking of tripping hazards, what about all the old school winches around the base of the mast? I'll take a bit of spaghetti in the cockpit over those tripping hazards any day! And using a deck mounted winch at the base of the mast? ouch! My back hurts just thinking about it! I'll stick with the ergonomics of a winch near chest height thankyouverymuch!

As a racer I am a big fan of clean obstacle free decks that allow free movement without worrying about tripping over winches, let alone falling on one!

When we are under sail all of the excess halyards and tails get thrown down the companionway so they aren't an issue. I have sheet bags that snap in on 3 sides of the companionway hatch opening that I can use, although we usually don't bother.
 
#44 ·
The issue with where to put the lines frankly is goofy IMHO. Be it they are looped and tied on to the mast base, or loped and tied at the back of the cabin really does not matter if one is off shore for some period of time where one does not want the tons of line on the cabin floor or equal.

I typically do as SchockT, halyards during day sails/cruises are tossed below, or coiled and tied if I know that halyard or equal will be up for awhile. A jib halyard in a race where the Jib and spin halyard will go up and down reasonably quick they go down the hatch. Reef lines are almost always coiled up, unless it appears like we will need them.

There is more than one way to handle the lose line issue. Be them in the back, or at the mast!
 
#48 ·
Once again all we can do is speak from our own experiences. In my world having slots in the dodger to allow lines to pass through is very commonplace. Then again in our waters it is not very common to have conditions where waves are hitting the dodger. Remember, we are talking about NewporNewbies boat which is a 30' coastal racer/cruiser, not some big blue water cruiser! Hell, I don't even HAVE a dodger! (Dodgers are for whimps! :D) As for wet lines down the companionway, on my boat, and many others I sail on the halyards hang in such a way that they don't contact anything but the sole, which is going to get wet in foul weather anyway. It doesn't take long to wipe up when putting the boat away.True, if I had a fancier boat I might not do it, but as I said before, sheet bags are great for containing excess rope.

As far as coastal cruisers go, I have found that pretty much every modern boat I have looked at has controls and halyards lead aft, dodger or no. Winches on the mast are very uncommon. At least in my experience.
 
#50 ·
I have no Dodger and will not get one for this boat. The previous owner who has sailed for 30+ years, delivered boats all up and down the west coast and who has had 2 Santana 30's and now a Schock 35 said he removed the headliner just before I bought it so he could run the lines aft, as he did on his previous Santana 30 and loved it. I decided to sail it the way it was then figure out what I wanted to do. On Santana 30's reefing is done very rarely, just not that big of a mainsail. So I have never reefed this boat. Never been on deck in bad weather. Well only a few times to clear lines caught on things. Only been out a few times in big wind, and never on deck. So the cockpit is where I sail from. I am mostly a singlehanded, or shorthanded sailor, and for me, the more I can do from the cockpit the better, especially when it comes to raising and lowering sails in harbor. I dont have an autopilot yet, so that will help, but in breezy conditions with current, its sometimes hard to point the boat, go to the deck, lower the sail, then run back and forth. If I can do it all from the cockpit...simple. When sailing, mainsheet, traveler sheets and jib sheets are all in the cockpit, but if I REALLY want to some sail adjusting, its not there. So I thought run the boom vang and cunningham back. That way I can more easily use those to adjust the shape of the main. Up to now its been hoist the main and whatever the shape is, sail with it. I really want to learn to make the boat go better in all conditions that I sail in, and running back and forth to the deck to adjust the vang doesnt seem logical. Same thing for cunningham. So if I am going to do some deck work to move a few things there, shoouldnt I do the main and spinn halyards too? Only sailed one other boat, and new Beneteau First 30 and all lines were in the cockpit. Raising and lowering the main was such a simple operation from the cockpit. So to the people saying keep the lines on deck because its more manly...or because I want to be comfortable on deck so dont move the lines because then I wont go there as often, or because of other reasons listed here...If money were no object, and you were buying a new boat. The lines were lead to the aft, because it seems alot of new boats are made that way now. Would you change it? Would you spend the money to make it the "old school" way for those reasons? Or would you say its easier, and more convenient so I will do it that way because it came that way? I get the whole idea, it came that way so I sail that way and it works for me. I get that, but some guys are pretty opinionated AGAINST lines led aft. I am trying to get to the reasons why. I am primarily a singlehanded sailor, so to me, the cockpit is the safest place on the boat, so staying there as much as possible seems like the safest thing I can do, as long as Im not overpowered and in big wind obviously. In harbor at the tiller seems to be the best place to be with the kind of traffic I deal with normally, so if I can do the stuff I usually do on deck from the cockpit, again to me thats safer.The downsides seem to be too many lines in the companionway when sailing...well I am usually alone...so, not an issue with me. Lines may get wet, and thus get the interior wet? Not an issue for me. More lines to deal with while sailing...thats an isse, but if I have sheet bags, then I dont see a problem because alot of the lines will normally be unused, so tied up, and put away. Losing my comfort level on deck. Ok, well I dont have a huge comfort level now, so maybe thats why I am thinking about this at all...lol...
 
#51 ·
If I had 4 winches there would be 2 aft on the cabin top and 2 ON THE MAST, not at the foot of it.

The ONLY thing I dislike about lines led aft ON TOP of the cabin top is that they are now all on the deck, which is only a "problem" in my mind. I do not like having things underfoot forward- granted, how often must one go forward with lines led aft... not alot, but i just like doing it- its my damn boat, Ill hang out on the whole thing, wherever i please...

Anyway Jeff H is right about one thing, if you route it back to the cockpit, you will use it. IF you dont', you might still, but you will have plenty of excuses not too.

my old boat had the furler and sheets aft, nothing else. now I have 3 halyards, a cunningham, a vang and a reef all right there. and I use them all. the outhaul is also aft, but on the boom...

I dont' give a ratsass about any flopping lines, those get "stowed" its called seamanship- and so wet or dry they aren't an issue.

I want my lines that are routed aft, INSIDE my cabin, basically running along the "ceiling"

As I havent a headliner to hide "gutters" under I have yet to come up with a satisfactory way to keep the cabin dry- as the holes the lines enter and exit from will leak in rain, spray or anything else.

once I come up with a set up I feel confident will keep water out I will move all hardware and lines UNDER the deck, rather than on it. look up- now imagine ropes running for and aft on the ceiling.

look down, imagine ropes under your feet.

Now look at the keyboard or iphone whatever, and imaging that all those ropes in either situation terminate right there, allowing you precise control over your marrionette, Now with a complete mental picture like that, which do you imagine to be preferable, lines on the "floor" or lines on the "ceiling"

I crewed a boat with "evertyhing" lead aft- and it was all under the deck, between it and the headliner, wiht "gutters" 5200ed in place under them, so any water that entered the boat, exited into the cockpit. it was awesome. clean usable decks, nothing to trip over etc, the bow guy certainly appreciated it. no clutter, a clean slick visual appearance. IT was HIGHLY functional in every way, and very eye catching and appealing.

If it trims or shapes, you need access to it. especially if you race shorthanded, and I *think* I remember you lamenting lack of crew in a post or two.
 
#70 · (Edited)
I want my lines that are routed aft, INSIDE my cabin, basically running along the "ceiling"

As I havent a headliner to hide "gutters" under I have yet to come up with a satisfactory way to keep the cabin dry- as the holes the lines enter and exit from will leak in rain, spray or anything else.

once I come up with a set up I feel confident will keep water out I will move all hardware and lines UNDER the deck, rather than on it. look up- now imagine ropes running for and aft on the ceiling.

look down, imagine ropes under your feet.

Now look at the keyboard or iphone whatever, and imaging that all those ropes in either situation terminate right there, allowing you precise control over your marrionette, Now with a complete mental picture like that, which do you imagine to be preferable, lines on the "floor" or lines on the "ceiling"

I crewed a boat with "evertyhing" lead aft- and it was all under the deck, between it and the headliner, wiht "gutters" 5200ed in place under them, so any water that entered the boat, exited into the cockpit. it was awesome. clean usable decks, nothing to trip over etc, the bow guy certainly appreciated it. no clutter, a clean slick visual appearance. IT was HIGHLY functional in every way, and very eye catching and appealing.
I'm having a hard time picturing how that would work on anything but a fairly small boat...

How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?

How were the lines led to winches, once exiting the cabin? Again, without creating issues with increased friction, or chafe?

One of the worst design flaws/setups I have EVER seen, was on an older Hunter that had lines led aft through conduits/covers on the deckhouse, under the dodger, and emerging on each side of the companionway... Guess it never occurred to anyone what might happen when green water came rolling aft on deck... I quickly found out one December night on LI Sound, the amount of water that cascaded down the companionway, even with the hatch closed, was simply beyond belief, it was like a freakin' waterfall...

Ran a few Trintellas that led lines aft through the curved stainless handrails... Very sleek and sexy, garnered lots of Oohs & Ahhs at the boat shows... Yet, in practice, it was astonishing how much additional friction it added to the setup, a more elegant recipe for breaking stuff with an electric cockpit winch has rarely been devised... (grin)

Especially when the main halyard is fed to a winch on one side of the cockpit, and the Leisure-Furl downhall is fed to the opposite side, making it very impractical/difficult for one person to manage both, and gauge the relative tension/resistance when hoisting or reefing the main... No need to ask me how I know this, of course...
 
#52 ·
[/URL][/IMG]

I'll just chime in because the OP and I sail only 45 miles apart and both singlehand a lot. The picture above will show it would be difficult to make a spaghetti bowl in my cockpit, and I never have to leave the cockpit to change anything - That's probably because I don't use a spin, I have a furling jib, so those lines stay in a bag all the time. I've only have to adjust my boomvang once (The green/white line) so if I think I'll need it I just toss it forward over the hatch. So the only lines I have on the cockpit floor/bench is the mainsheet and traveler, then the jib sheets. I tuck the halyards in either of two large bags, and I usually tidy up the jib sheets after each tack so they won't tangle or get in the way for the next tack. Again, no racing, just casual day sailing.

I will say that having the main halyard running aft and previously installed autopilot has been very convenient. As I enter my main channel I point into the wind at idle RPM's in FWD gear, flick the autopilot on and yank on the halyard. It takes about 30 seconds to get the main all the way up, then I winch on it for the last few inches, then I have a clutch to lock it down. I can turn off the wind with or without autopilot and unfurl the jib and it's all done, smooth quiet sailing from there. I don't really use the autopilot when I'm out there unless I have to go down below for something, so battery draining isn't a concern.

Is there anything at the moment that causes you to shake your head every time you go sailing? If so, I'd make that / those the first things to address. That's sort of how I prioritize boat improvements.

If you decide to buy deck organizers and all the other goodies see what you can find at Minney's before ordering brand new ones!
 
#53 ·
[/URL][/IMG]

Is there anything at the moment that causes you to shake your head every time you go sailing? If so, I'd make that / those the first things to address. That's sort of how I prioritize boat improvements.

If you decide to buy deck organizers and all the other goodies see what you can find at Minney's before ordering brand new ones!
+1 used gear
+1 fix what bugs you first. otherwise its like sailing a charter boat, or someone elses boat all the time

and we all know, everyone else's boat, and especially charter boats are all rigged wrong.
 
#55 ·
This got me thinking...what modern boats DONT have lines run aft? I looked and every new boat made has all lines running aft....at least the 30-35ft boast I looked at....so does everyone else have it wrong?? These are just a few...I didnt find any new yachts without lines running aft. No lines end at the mast on any of these new boats.

Junneau Sunfast 3200





Elan 310





Beneteau First 30



J-108


Hanse 345


Tartan 3400


Bavaria 33
 
#63 ·
Have had every line run aft on last 2 boats and will on new one.
1.if possible use similar color lines for same function- first reefs variation of red,second green etc. Think about how you are going to use winchs,line clutches etc. I have two winches on cabin top. One is powered. Halyards go on that side. Mark lines at usual positons with colored yarn (can feel it in the dark). For example-main halyard marked at first,second and third reef.
2.keep all turns in lines to mimimal degree of acuteness- hugely decreases friction.
3. make sure you can clear kinks in lines quickly. Lines not under load should be pulled aft so no slack -less likely to kink. Periodically take lines out to get rid of any twist in them from use.

Have hard dodger. Issue of getting water in from "holes" trivial as coil lines and dump them in that space. Lines act as buffer and "holes" are part of a limber hole system for dodger. Always have jack lines out when singling. Still have mast pulpit and grab rails on side of dodger and on deck. Bringing everything aft doesn't mean you won't need to go forward time to time.
I'm a wuss and proud of it.
 
#64 ·
What is this big concern with water through the dodger? We are talking about a narrow slot at the bottom of the dodger that allows lines to pass through. The only way you are going to have significant water coming through that opening is if you are punching your bow into waves and have green waves washing the length of your decks! I am guessing if you are sailing in conditions like that you are gonna get wet anyway! And if you have to go up to the mast to make adjustments? You are going to get REALLY wet! Sailing is a water sport!

Power winches? Carpet? Enclosed cockpits? Might as well just buy a power boat!:laugher
 
#68 ·
I was talking about Jameswilson- his was tounge in cheek. You were decidedly vehement.

and lo those many pro miles you keep referencing go even further to proving the point, EVERYONE ELSE'S boat is ALWAYS rigged wrong.

I've only a few "pro miles" mostly I sail on my own behalf- on my own boat- you know- the only damn boat in the ocean that is rigged properly.

If I was on other peoples boats all the time I would rather just have it all terminate at the mast too- rather than constantly be sorting out what line goes where.

sometimes I want a dodger.

If had one I would be more sensitive to the issue of water coming through it, in fact it would make me IRATE- the whole point of the thing being to keep water OUT... equipment that cant function properly either by design, or by "meddling" IE leaving zippers open or whatever for lines to come through, drives me nuts.

It always brings a smile when I hear about or see the elderly getting along so well- Keep up the good work, youre only as old as you feel?act? whichever.


I've tried it both ways, and like self tailing winches- I've no axe to grind either way, it seems I've been able to somehow manage on a variety of my own boats (all of which were proper, and yet somehow rigged several different ways) and other peoples to A) get there and back "safely" usually quickly as well
and B) have a reasonably good time, reefing forward or from the cockpit, etc.
 
#74 ·
I was talking about Jameswilson- his was tounge in cheek. You were decidedly vehement.
I guess I was, wasn't I? I intended to be clear. *grin* I overachieved.

and lo those many pro miles you keep referencing go even further to proving the point, EVERYONE ELSE'S boat is ALWAYS rigged wrong.
Well, not entirely. I've sailed a lot of great boats. The ones that stick in my mind are the ones that had some silly characteristic. There are lots of "right" answers but even more "wrong" or at least misguided ones.

How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?
I've seen some pretty cool looking underdeck leads on Jeanneau cruisers. The friction is no greater than any other boat with lines led aft but of course are not nearly so nice as one with lines at the mast.

I find the added friction of lines led aft hasn't ever been sufficient for me to bother to complain about it. It's far less significant than the difference between a boom that's end or mid sheeted. If it were significant like that I'd gripe.
You must be pretty strong. In my experience with lines at the mast I can get the main to the masthead on boats up to 40' and tension the halyard with a winch. On boats to about 50' I can usually get the main to within 8 or 10' and grind it the rest of the way. I can't get anything like that sort of hoist by hand with lines led aft.

I'm 52 in good health and moderate condition.

Oh - at the risk of vehemence again, God intended sailboats have end-boom sheeting. *grin* There's a Psalm or a Commandment or something.

Owned the boat said he had seen it done on a Swan 61? A big swan. He was a real German freres fan. But it's hard to fault a guy for that. Maybe it was a halberg rassy. Anyway- that where he saw it done and replicated it. I don't know if he ever saw exactly how it was done on that boat or if he just had to wing it. But it was well executed.
I think German Frers is one of the best naval architects of our age.
 
#69 ·
Can someone explain what a dodger some of you talk about?!?!?!?!?!?

Found a semi decent shot of my boat with the lines run aft!


I would also point out, the SF3200 was designed as an ocean going racing boat. Either to be single or double handed. As such, everything is reasonably close to the skipper! ie lines run aft so one does not have to go forward, be that good or bad!

Marty
 
#71 · (Edited)
The holes in the deck- had basically like roulon grommets that the lines led through to the turning blocks. At each end. So where they entered at the base if the mast- and remerged at the cabintop.

The only thing making any contact with the lines other than the hardware you alway see were the rulon or whatever it was grommets. The - what I've been calling gutters- weren't in contact with the lines anywhere- and there were scuppers that drained them into the cockpit. The added friction was minimal over a conventional aft setup. I didn't notice it at all. I also dislike the electric winches. This was a bene 456- not really that small. It had an electric winch for the main- and not feeling what was happening nerve racked me all the time. I didn't like it. I'd rather grind grind grind. But I'm 34 and way more fit than most of the country. Or most humans.

I find the added friction of lines led aft hasn't ever been sufficient for me to bother to complain about it. It's far less significant than the difference between a boom that's end or mid sheeted. If it were significant like that I'd gripe.

I leave the cockpit anyway. And for me the fact that I've got "cluttered" decks is way way more a drawback than a tiny bit of additional friction from routing everything aft. Regardless of te way one goes about it.

The friction feels way different than any stress or strain on equipment- so it diesn affect the lines ability to telegraph trouble to me.

I've got no idea how long that boat was tinkered with til it was "right" but it was... Right. It made a lasting impression on me- "when I grow up my boat is going to be just like this one" the guy who Owned the boat said he had seen it done on a Swan 61? A big swan. He was a real German freres fan. But it's hard to fault a guy for that. Maybe it was a halberg rassy. Anyway- that where he saw it done and replicated it. I don't know if he ever saw exactly how it was done on that boat or if he just had to wing it. But it was well executed.

Hahaha.
 
#77 ·
The holes in the deck- had basically like roulon grommets that the lines led through to the turning blocks. At each end. So where they entered at the base if the mast- and remerged at the cabintop.

The only thing making any contact with the lines other than the hardware you alway see were the rulon or whatever it was grommets. The - what I've been calling gutters- weren't in contact with the lines anywhere- and there were scuppers that drained them into the cockpit. The added friction was minimal over a conventional aft setup. I didn't notice it at all. I also dislike the electric winches. This was a bene 456- not really that small. It had an electric winch for the main- and not feeling what was happening nerve racked me all the time. I didn't like it. I'd rather grind grind grind. But I'm 34 and way more fit than most of the country. Or most humans.

I find the added friction of lines led aft hasn't ever been sufficient for me to bother to complain about it. It's far less significant than the difference between a boom that's end or mid sheeted. If it were significant like that I'd gripe.

I leave the cockpit anyway. And for me the fact that I've got "cluttered" decks is way way more a drawback than a tiny bit of additional friction from routing everything aft. Regardless of te way one goes about it.

The friction feels way different than any stress or strain on equipment- so it diesn affect the lines ability to telegraph trouble to me.

I've got no idea how long that boat was tinkered with til it was "right" but it was... Right. It made a lasting impression on me- "when I grow up my boat is going to be just like this one" the guy who Owned the boat said he had seen it done on a Swan 61? A big swan. He was a real German freres fan. But it's hard to fault a guy for that. Maybe it was a halberg rassy. Anyway- that where he saw it done and replicated it. I don't know if he ever saw exactly how it was done on that boat or if he just had to wing it. But it was well executed.

Hahaha.
Thanks for the explanation, but I guess it must just be me... I remain completely baffled by the rationale for creating numerous openings in the cabin top, simply to run lines aft inside the cabin for a relatively short distance, and then exiting up to the cabin top again, when they could seemingly be led so much more directly along the cabin top itself...

In an amusing coincidence, the April issue of SAIL addresses the very issue of running lines aft... Editor Peter Neilsen's column sings the praises of keeping such things simple, and in a Viewpoint column on page 26, Ben Ericksen explains "Why I'll Never Lead My Lines Aft"...

So, I guess perhaps Dave/Auspicious and I are not the only dinosaurs out there with such a minority point of view, after all... (grin)
 
#73 ·
Electronics just above sliding hatch over companionway in coaming. One set there,one set at nav station, one set at wheel. Lines at gradual angle from foot of mast. All approaches to mast free of lines. Lines above deck. Can be cleared,examined or re -reeved easily. Hard dodger designed with running lines aft in mind. With autopilot remote can run boat without ever getting out from under the dodger except for sheets.. No green water issues.Do what ever floats your boat but nice to sit under dodger with honey below and be in touch with each other and out of the wind and weather. Nice to not have to wake anyone up to reef or hoist. Have rule no one goes forward without someone watching them whenever there is more than one on the boat. Respect the Captain's opinion - just see it differently. Respect their appreciation of KISS. Chart book and cruising guide only come up at landfall. Never go overboard.If wet can dry-if overboard gone. The race boats seem to have no trouble going around the world by themselves with everything brought aft.
 
#76 ·
agree with SVA. Mid boom mainsheet seems to put more twist in the line and adds friction but with modern boats being more dependent on the main for sail the pleasure of not having a traveler in the cockpit outweighs the drawbacks of mid boom set up IMHO. Sometimes yank on the halyards up by the mast as some one else yanks from the cockpit. Nice to be able to have two people yank on it which is easy when LINES BROUGHT AFT (grin).
 
#79 ·
I don't think I would want to mess around with penetrating the deck into the cabin twice in order to run halyards internally. That is just asking for trouble both with water ingress and a serious PIA factor when it comes to removing and re-running halyards in future. Some manufacturers are now running the halyards in channels with removable covers on them which looks nice if it is well executed. At least that way you get the clean decks without penetrating into the cabin.

There really is not much more friction with the halyard lead aft. It makes 1 90deg turn at the base, and then deflects through the deck organizer. There is a bit more friction pulling the halyard through the closed spinlock clutch, but I can still hand-over-hand my sails to the masthead. If for some reason there is more friction, I can 2-hand it, with the clutch holding between pulls. If I have crew on board, I can go to the mast and jump the halyard, while someone tails from the pit. When I am hoisting the spinnaker, I can steer with the tiller between my legs while I hand-over-hand the chute up, and then grab the spin sheet, trim in, and I am sailing. That is infinitely more efficient than having to run up to the mast for the hoist, and then run back to the cockpit to trim and steer. There is way more potential for something to go wrong if you are forced to tie off the tiller or use an autohelm (which I don't have) and run around the boat.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top