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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-20-2013 10:27 PM
SloopJonB
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billyruffn View Post
Doesn't speak well of the skipper's judgement.
I think that has already been decided.
03-19-2013 08:21 PM
MattSplatt
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Does the CG make transcripts available of such hearings? I'd love to be able to read a full account of the testimony of Joe Jakomovicz mentioned in Vittone's 'Day 3' section.
03-19-2013 01:37 PM
c. breeze
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Well. There's a passle of under priviledeged kids in FLorida who are better off for it all...
03-19-2013 12:01 PM
denverd0n
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Like others, I have avoided the endless Bounty debates. Thank you for posting the link to the day-by-day account of the hearings.

To me, all this points to the biggest danger we all face. In aviation it is called get-home-itis. That notion that "I have a schedule to keep, and I have to find a way to keep it." It is amazing how powerful that can be, and how it can cause experienced and otherwise intelligent people to make incredibly stupid decisions.

While there is clearly plenty of blame to go around, under it all, that really seems to me to be what was driving Capt. Wallbridge. He loved the Bounty, and knew that it's long-term salvation probably lay with the group in Florida. He was scheduled to show them the boat on such-and-such a day, so he had to get there, and rationalized heading out into the storm because of it.

The weather and the sea are completely unforgiving of our puny plans. As has been said here many times, but as we all need to keep reminding ourselves at every turn, a schedule is the most dangerous thing that you can take to sea.
03-19-2013 09:30 AM
JimMcGee
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The Bounty thread was very extensive coverage of he testimony day by day. I for one watched the live stream every day.
Dave, I didn't hang in on the Bounty thread long enough to learn the hearings were televised. Those threads just seemed to go on forever and I don't enjoy those kinds of threads (Bounty, Rule 62, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
So yes the Captain ultimately was to blame. But here are other culpabilities which may lead to future lawsuits as well as regulations of a display vs seagoing vessel and how they can be held or CG inspection.
I agree there is blame to go around - particularly to the yard and the owner. But as I said in my earlier post I just felt an overwhelming anger toward the captain as I read the notes from the hearing.

By their own account the yard did shoddy work. I wouldn't nail good plywood over rotted frames on a lawn shed let alone a large ship heading to sea. But the captain was aware of what the yard was doing. He was aware of the condition of his pumps, he was aware of the leaks. Yes he had pressure from the owners. But ultimately he was the one with years of experience as a professional captain of a tall ship. He was aware of just how dangerous his boat was. He chose to take that ship to sea, in a hurricane - in a god damned hurricane. It's a miracle the entire crew wasn't lost. They likely would have been but for the Coast Guard who's live were also put in danger by the absolute recklessness of this man.

That's what I took away from the account of the hearings and writing this over coffee this morning I'm angry all over again.

Should the yard and the owners be held accountable for their parts in this? Absolutely. But the ultimate responsibility falls on a captain who paid the ultimate price.

And none of it was necessary...
03-19-2013 01:23 AM
CalebD
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Agreed...not trying to pick on you. I got more like 120 posts on it...argggggg. I just cant figure thin gs out. I thought that captain who abandoned his vessels Viewfinder when trying to attempt a crossing with a rookie crew who mutinied almost the second day would have be a cause for discussion, but no it was Bounty. Had broken his rudder once and still didnt register to have a plan B. Go figure


We are interested to see how Sandy affected the places we cruise when we come up the New jersey Coast this summer to the LI Sound. I have been on LBI and to Seaside this winter delivering generatorsa and see how bad it still is. We usually pull in Atlantic HIghlands and anchor/ moor too.

Maybe we will be able to meet up this year.

dave
Dave,
Yes, I thought it was more like 120 posts but I sure did not want to go back and count them all. Whew!
And yes, the Viewfinder discussion certainly did not have the "legs" that any of the other Bounty threads did. I don't expect this thread to turn into another epic; more of a quiet epilogue. Not much to debate at this point, is there?
H'cane Sandy was epic up here though and the debates will go on for years to come. I'll bet you will be alright at Atlantic Highlands if you stay there again. I'm sure the sandbars have moved around quite a bit so you can toss out your old charts of Raritan Bay. The ocean level rose high enough to come right across Sandy Hook peninsula in some places. USCG base there was badly damaged/flooded.

And yes, with any luck we can meet up on your cruise this summer.
03-18-2013 10:01 PM
chef2sail
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
Um, I'm not the one who made something like 20+ posts to the various Bounty threads. If you were checking you would find that I did not post in any of them as it seemed like a lot of wagging tongues to me. I stumbled upon the link I posted which is a day by day review of the CG hearings. I thought it was interesting so I posted it for anyone who might have missed this in all the long, drawn out pizzing contests that made up the bulk of the other Bounty threads. I know that some of you seem to enjoy that kind of thread, but I do not. I knew that I could count on you however, to assert yourself in this thread.

As for making a spectacle about some boating accident, no. That is not me, so I leave it up those more qualified! :G Or those wearing glasses :G

A more useful discussion I would like to see after hurricane Sandy is how people react to the incredible amount of damage caused to moored and docked boats. What changes may be coming to a mooring field or slip near you?

Agreed...not trying to pick on you. I got more like 120 posts on it...argggggg. I just cant figure thin gs out. I thought that captain who abandoned his vessels Viewfinder when trying to attempt a crossing with a rookie crew who mutinied almost the second day would have be a cause for discussion, but no it was Bounty. Had broken his rudder once and still didnt register to have a plan B. Go figure


We are interested to see how Sandy affected the places we cruise when we come up the New jersey Coast this summer to the LI Sound. I have been on LBI and to Seaside this winter delivering generatorsa and see how bad it still is. We usually pull in Atlantic HIghlands and anchor/ moor too.

Maybe we will be able to meet up this year.

dave
03-18-2013 09:29 PM
CalebD
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Which one do you wish to analyse next and make a spectacle about?
Um, I'm not the one who made something like 20+ posts to the various Bounty threads. If you were checking you would find that I did not post in any of them as it seemed like a lot of wagging tongues to me. I stumbled upon the link I posted which is a day by day review of the CG hearings. I thought it was interesting so I posted it for anyone who might have missed this in all the long, drawn out pizzing contests that made up the bulk of the other Bounty threads. I know that some of you seem to enjoy that kind of thread, but I do not. I knew that I could count on you however, to assert yourself in this thread.

As for making a spectacle about some boating accident, no. That is not me, so I leave it up those more qualified! :G Or those wearing glasses :G

A more useful discussion I would like to see after hurricane Sandy is how people react to the incredible amount of damage caused to moored and docked boats. What changes may be coming to a mooring field or slip near you?
03-18-2013 07:07 PM
chef2sail
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

Agreeed Caleb

I think it is unfair for you to make assumptions that any relationship I had with the Captain clouded my judgement or opinions. Stating that is irrleevant because In fact I have placed his share of the blame squarely on him all along. I have never NEVER said he was not ultimately responsible for what happened.

If you recall or you can read my input was not to rush to judgement for fear of becomming embroiled in the emotional aspects of the incident. Lets be real here and put it in perspective. Its one ship and a lot of angst and finger pointing to it while there have been 3 seperate incidents in California where there was greater loss of life and maybe equal incompetance which caused them but it didnt become an emotional time bomb like the Bounty incident did.

Now that we have record straight perhaps we can take the blinders off and look at other issues which occured in this tragedy so that we can possibly learn and affectuate some change so that there is a way to prevent it from reoccuring. There is very little to learn if your only contribution to this incident involves the Walbridge as there is no way to legislate human nature and it failings.

If you took the time to watch the actual testimony like I and others did you could not help but learn a few other things concerning this tragedy

1- We learned of the terrible condition of the Bounty first hand. Maine Sail had posted he saw it and never would have left the dock in it. We learned the the Boothbay Shipyard had done 2 other major "fixes" on this vessel and that essentially they were knowingly nailing new outer planking onto a rotten frame. There was conflicting testimony from the shipright ( Kosokowski) who took photographs because he saw a perceived danger ( he was covering his ass) and didnt want to be held responsible. Meanwhile he never told his bosses and allededly told Waldbridge. The yard manager of 40 years (Jacomovincz) contradicted some of this tesimony and said the ship was sailable and said it could be fixed the next time the Bounty was in port for a refit. So the Ship yard took money and bandaided a ship which they new would not last and was unsafe? Also came out that the Boothbay has lost 3 years earlier a large 9 figure settlement in the refuirbishing of the Shenendoah, another tall ship in which they were found to have inadequtely repaired the ship

2- We learned that the crew of the Bounty was woefully prepared to handle even their own jobs on the ship. Thier testimony pointed out their complete lack of lkn owledge such as the enguineer, who knew nothing about filter on the pumps or the even how the pumps worked. The repairs which the crew made such as caulking the seems with a less than marine material to the top deack seal. The " p[roifessionals" knew it wasnt right but either turned a blind eye or just took pictures but never stepped forward and said it was safe or wouldnt hold up. And yes before you say it the Captain ordered thease repairs thgis way as there was no money to repair the vessels any other way

3- We learned from the hearing just How woefully funded the Bounty was and how it led to a crew which was not qualified as well as a Captain with a maniacal dream to preserve thuis ship which was rotten to the core structurally

4- We learned from the hearings that there was an organization who was interested in buying or funding the Bounty in Florida and having it involved in a program to aid disadvantage and challenged youth.

5- We learned about the owner and that there was pressure from him, but he took the fifth here so the true involvement wont come out until the civil suits are brought forth where he wont be able to hide behind that.

6- We learned that the only way to sail the Bounty was with pumps running and that when they failed,,,she woulkdnt stay afloat. Many people knoew this, no one raised the alarm and then the Captain irresponsibly went sailing and endangered the crew and himself needlessly knowing this. This ship could have sunk at anytime it appeared let alone take it out in a storm.

7- The Bounty was classified as a private vessel. There are no licensing requirements or CG inspections anymore than on our boats really. There are no regulatory requirements basically. She is just like many commercial fishing boats which are leaky, in disrepair, poorly funded and hanging on waiting to sink. Her crew were poorly paid and trained even worse.

Lastly the CG are really heros in their rescue.

Much attention has been given to the Bounty sinking...maybe because of the movie image and story behind the real Bounty.

The Captain was clearly culpable and irresponsible( See Caleb I said it again- grin. So were others to a much lesser degree in this tragedy.

Now its on to the next incident...which one do you want to rehash next... Farlonnes, Rule 62, San Clemente Sailboat, Sea of Cortez sinking, or the most recent Viewfinder.
Which one do you wish to analyse next and make a spectacle about?
03-18-2013 06:11 PM
CalebD
Re: Bounty, 2 minute mutiny?

I knew I could count on Chef Dave's input at some point on this thread. A Chesapeake Lion can't resist a chance to air his views!!! (:G-

The CG investigation is going down like any marine casualty/loss inquiry with many contributing factors coming into play. That not withstanding, Walbridge's peers all thought he was crazy for leaving New London when he did. Even if the boat's crew, hull structures and equipment had been up for it (which they were not) it was because of him that they found themselves where they were. The other contributing factors had very little to do with placing the Bounty where it ultimately met it's demise. I'll also point out that the nonfunctional bilge pumps, generators and engines were all ultimately the captains responsibility too, even if some less than competent volunteer had been placed in charge of them de facto.

I know you liked him Dave and have been one of his few staunch supporters here. You are entitled to your opinion based on your past aquaintance with the man, but he lost his life due to bad judgment. I'm sure we have all done some things that were poor choices of judgment at least once. None of use (still living) have had to pay for those choices with our lives. It is very sad for everyone involved and a warning to those of us on smaller boats not to bite off more than we can chew.
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