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Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

31K views 156 replies 38 participants last post by  Cruisingdad 
#1 ·
I am planning on doing some deck work and everyone says this is the time to run lines to the cockpit. What lines should I run aft? Right now the only lines aft are the main sheet, jib sheets, topping lift and travelers. I was planning on running the cunningham and boom vang back. Should I do main halyard? Spin Halyard? I am going to be using an Asym. Spinnaker I assume the topping lift isnt needed? Anyone have before and after pics?
 
#88 ·
Yeah it's funny, I didn't think it was really a debate, because most manufacturers just don't put winches on the mast anymore. I have only ever seen that configuration on really old boats that haven't been updated. I guess some people are just traditionalists that don't want to embrace these "new-fangled" ideas! :D
 
#96 ·
I finally watched it. The only thing that bugs me is them havin the kid "help" like grandpa is teaching him how to dock- because that is not how it's done. That and not having any sails on the boat.

I run into old people all the time- not o the 1000's of ocean miles curmudgeon school- who simply can't handle their boat. They worked there ass off to retire and go cruising- and found out- oh hey- I'm just not as physically capable of all this as I thought I would be.

So they do things like use only one anchor when they need two- because only one is on a windless. And they end up grounded with rudder fairin snapped off and quadrant broken- so when they do start floating again- all they can do is call for help.

They jam there sails in there booms and masts. (I probably would too- but it's hard to do with jiffy reefing)

They get water in their diesel and can't make the motor run, and can't replace the racor seperator.

Ill see more of that every year- all because of stuff like this.


This add is a complete affront. It encourages destroying the foundation of seamanship on which the future of sailing will be built- by poisoning the minds of children with even more shortcuts and easy ways out. And it puts even more relatively helpless old people into boats that they absolutely can not actually handle- because they have the illusion of control provided by yet another "amenity" sadly there will be an entire navy of people out there using it as a crutch rather than an amenity.

Somebody put a tiller in that kids hand for Christ sake.
 
#97 · (Edited)
C.Breeze I'm one of those who "worked my ass off to retire". Maybe I'm not as physically able- I know my endurance sucks and my joints aren't too great either. But I've managed to go to Bermuda (won once) several times ( did it with celestial once too) and from N.E. to the Carribean a few times and have been through a number of storms. What I see more often then infirm elderly are arrogant youth who have yet to gain the humility and wisdom that comes with age.Last summer came in on the launch with a couple in their 80's. They needed help getting in and alot of help getting their kit off their boat into the launch as well. They had big smiles as they just came back from a two week cruise. Wife was on me as it took 3 passes for them to pick up their mooring. Watched closely and was ready to help but they did it themselves. ?Isn't that what it's about? They made everyone on the launch smile and it was a great day to be alive.
Suspect over 35+yrs. I have owned a few more boats than you have children. My new boat is the first I will have that has power winches and a bow thruster. Something new to learn.
Find your comment age-ist and an expression of your own inadequacies. Plase keep your hateful thoughts to your self. Would appreciate further comments about running rigging brought aft as my crippled old knees and fat gut make it difficult to go forward in a blow.
People of all ages learn from experience and being taught.Doesn't matter if they get it at 30 or 60. If you are skilled perhaps you can put joy in this world by sharing your skills not your insults.Show them how to use the Racor, explain about anchoring and snubbing etc.
They are putting Z drives on ships now too. Guess their Masters don't know any seamanship either. Lighten up - It's an ad. ?Think the kid was his son not his grandson. (GRIN)
 
#103 · (Edited)
Well. It would seem that though you're ability to read and process information is, at this point questionable, you fit into 1000s of ocean miles school of curmudgeonry- specifically referenced in my post.

Anyway, I appreciate the assumption that I leave everyone I meet whose background didn't provide the proper experience base for their travels, or whose fitness level is questionable, helpless. In fact I typically try to get them to sign a salvage agreement and then offer assistance. (Joke, referencing towboatus thread)

Tell you what- try to tuck up that Viagra inspired boner- and spare me the righteous indignation. If you want to read the post- and respond to the points I made- feel free, if not that's fine too. If you think that that's how teaching a kid to sail is done- fine I hope you have kids and grand kids to share that particular joy with. If you do not think that "ammenities" like that result in more and more less qualified people taking sailboats places they should not- and using those "ammenities" as a crutch, to compensate for lack of proper skills- then support that argument.

sailors use the stuff they can get to, lines led aft= sailing your boat better

I have met tons of people with in boom or in mast furling. Of these probably 1/3 had a sailing background and knew how to tie in a reef. IN MY EXPERIENCE (limited as it is by age and the inordinate amount of time I've given up for others instead of frittering it away on fun like sailing). WHAT I HAVE SEEN WITH MY EYES. AND HEARD "from the horses mouth" is that typical users of that crap use it as a substitute for actual sailing "no how"

So while lines led aft leads to an individual sailing better- I contend that the other "nonsense" tends toward A) making one complacent and B) in many contexts, keeps one from ever becoming a "sailor"

I'm standing by with a litany of real life anecdotes to support my assertations.
None of which cast aspersions on your character. Now listen- I'm a real easygoing guy. After 39 months in Iraq and Afg I have a pretty good perspective on what's important and what's not. When you address someone directly- without any knowledge of who or what they are- its wise not too get on too high a horse. Usually it's really safe- and gives one an insulated feeling of superiority to call someone's character into question online.

But sometimes....

They are sitting in the same marina, using the same wifi- and look over at there spouse to tell o how they let some jerk really have it on sailnet. Only to turn around and find the scariest person in the world standing by for an explanation...

Old timer- I've said nothing here that I wouldn't or couldn't support in a fAce to face conversation. I have serious doubts that you have the gall to address me face to face in such fashion however. Whether it be from a real human desire to avoid confrontation or from having been raised right.
 
#98 · (Edited)
my crippled old knees are abe to go forwardon my flat wide decks, even the 20 ft from cockpit to main mast. i have a nice coachhouse roof under my main boom,and is good for standing on top of while raising main sail, when it is used. all easy and not dangerous. at least not more dangerous than crossing a street in lost angeles...at dusk....downtown..
to my cockpit go only my jib furling line and sheets. on my coach house roof aft, my main sheet. abaft my helm seat, which is a comfy sofa, is my mizzen sheet.
i usually sola with only jib and mizzen, so i dont have to fool around with going forward.
and i have a great autopilot. boat tracks perfect and for loong time--- i have no worries about going forward in 30 ft seas--btdt...wasnt a big deal....
tried to go forward in gom in a 37 seidelmann--fuggeddaboudit. and those were only 8 ft seas.
 
#99 ·
Zeehag - that's great. Your boat is set up with human ergonomics in mind and a comfortable motion from what you describe. Set my boat up to run from under the hard dodger but in a fashion that should any of the "new fangled" devices fail I could still do it the old fashion way. Find the more you bring aft the easier it is to shape your sails so the more likely you will do it. Rerigged my last boat so outhaul and kicking strap were brought aft ( had single hander's package to start). Found I was shaping the main for point of sail even when just day sailing around Buzzards Bay for an hour or two,
 
#105 ·
C.Breeze
Whether you meant it or not your post was percieved as confrontational. Once this attitude is taken or percieved the transfer of information becomes more problematic. I viewed your post as age-ist. Just re read it and still do. I've watched the same crowd a you and see the same things. It seems there are two main species. Those who know life is a contnuous learning curve and appreciate help up the hill and those who do not. In my experience age has little to do with it. I honor your service (remember.- as Dylan said- we all serve someone). Again feel you made preconcieved judgments in your current post.
 
#106 · (Edited)
Investigated in boom furling at some length. Already had in mast furler jam on a trip back from Bermuda so had no interest. You give up some sail shaping but both the schaefer and leisurefurl are now quite reliable with the bugs worked out. If that's what it takes to keep you on the water go for it. Personally, very conservative. Went with singleline reefing and a power winch. Therefore, don't have to head into the wind to reef and have mainsail set up so can tie in a reef even if system fails. Still give up some sail shaping. Think designing or modifying your boat for personal convenience is great as long as you realize you need to be able to run the boat if that system fails.
 
#107 ·
I couldn't possibly have preconceived these notions. I was completely ignorant to the fact that people who had never sailed before retired, took some ASA classes, and went cruising like it was no big deal.


My preconceived notion was that most of the "mature" people who retired an took off cruising had a somewhat nautical background, and had spent years sailing, honing a passion for it to the point that they were willing to toss off the amenities of land life in order to spend there golden years dealing with all the inconveniences of cruising. That's a preconceived notion.

I have no statistics which would illuminate the percentage of reasonably seasoned sailors with a fairly broad base o sailing knowledge and experience- vs those that are of the other school, I'm sure the skilled far outnumber the other- but who is it that you encounter most alon the way? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The competent folks aren't out making an impression because they are handling there business.

So, my new notion- radically different from my former and preconceived notion, is that the typical user of these amenities ie joystick docking, in boom/ in mast furling, electric winches (other than main halyard, which just seems to be the norm now), bow thrusters, etc is typically using them as a crutch to shore up a facet of seamanship in which said user is deficient.

I also specifically stated that there are in fact plenty of those with 1000s of sea miles. You know- the ones that fit my "preconceived notion"

Need I really go into a dissertation on the issues with younger sailors? It's not relevant to the issue I raised which was with a couple things- 1) sailboat commercials should feature boats with sails on them. 2) what a pathetic attempt at inspiring feelings of warmth at the idea of getting children involved in sailing- here Johnny its not quite as modern As your Xbox- it's more like playing the video games at the pizza place, the ones that still have a joystick
And 3) the target audience (which is what makes all this age related)

If you want a peak at the issues with young sailors watch hold fast.


In a perfect world my boat would have
A) clean decks
2: lines led aft including at a minimum main halyard, reefing, Cunningham. I might settle for just the Cunningham aft. I have a loose foot main so my out haul an cunnigham are pretty meaningful means of trimming the main.
 
#108 ·
Great ad for the 360 docking. Nice bit of kit.

Notice the Gramps left the kid on board when they went? Was the kid Roger the Cabin Boy? Sent to the bilges with rags to clean? Sold to ummmm those foreigners? Chucked overboard?

Come back in 20 years time and all new boats will have that. Or maybe even Dynamic Positioning.

Detachable helm wheels too. Just have one in the lazarette in case of emergency, but the rest of the time you just have the joystick and auto pilot and have a clearer cockpit space.

Like GPS and AIS advances in technology only enhance safety, increase abilities and add enjoyment... And all three mean an increase in "seamanship" as far as I am concerned.


Mark
 
#115 · (Edited)
Great ad for the 360 docking. Nice bit of kit.

Come back in 20 years time and all new boats will have that. Or maybe even Dynamic Positioning.

Like GPS and AIS advances in technology only enhance safety, increase abilities and add enjoyment... And all three mean an increase in "seamanship" as far as I am concerned.

Mark
No surprise you and I might disagree on this, but how a technology like joystick docking represents an enhancement of abilities, skills, and overall seamanship is completely lost on me...

Certainly hope they get all the bugs worked out of those systems by the time everyone out there has them... Last fall, in late November, I was fueling a boat at The Yacht Basin Co. in Annapolis, minding my own business... Empty harbor, very little activity about, when a 40' powerboat approaches alongside, to come to the fuel dock ahead of me... Good thing both myself and the dock attendant simultaneously realized something was wrong, and managed to get to the outboard side of my boat to lessen the impact of the resultant collision...

The operator of the vessel was clearly not some clueless newb, but sheepishly admitted he had been having "issues" with the system going haywire at random, invariably inopportune times...

2 winters ago in Boat Harbor in the Abacos, I witnessed a professional captain completely destroy the swim platform on a 44' Hinckley Talaria, when there was a similar failure while backing into a slip... I've had a similar ''fly by wire" engine control failure occur on a 62' Sunseeker, rendering the throttles useless on a $1.8 million yacht... Fortunately, there was a manual override system for the gearbox clutches, and we were able to limp into Charleston late one night after running the last 40 miles on a run from Morehead at dead idle...

And this, from a friend of mine who sails a J-160, not the kind of guy to make something like this up:

I have a marina neighbor with a Jeanneau that has it. Five of six (serious) rounds of "fixes" and adds of batteries, bigger alternator, hardware, software, etc. -- it still "locks-up" at the worst times. UFB.

I've asked them: Why did you get this linked system, your boat backs well enough, just have them lock the sail drive in the fore-aft postion, use the bow thrusters (if you need to), and get-on with life. Work-out something with Jeanneau for your economic and other suffering -- get them to clean-up the vestigual crap, so it looks like it was always intended that way, etc.
I'd like to know what happens to such systems in the event of a total loss of electrical power, or a more catastrophic event such as a lightning strike... I would imagine even a nearby strike could easily knock such a heavily software-dependent system out of commission... Sure might be inconvenient of such a failure occurred when that rotating saildrive was in a position perpendicular to the centerline of the hull, for example...

Nah, what am I thinking? Such things could NEVER happen on a boat, right? Electrons NEVER cease flowing to all the right places they need to be, after all... (grin)
 
#109 · (Edited)
Correct. This discussion isn't any different than the one we could have regarding roller furling headsails. 40 years ago. Now it's just accepted. I have it on my boat. I am not sure how many hank on headsails I've swapped out but its alot. Same with foil.

Really light badass shoes can help you jump higher and maybe snag the occasional extra rebound- but they won't help you dribble. In 20 years the fundamentals of sailing will not have changed. We will still be shaping airfoils to bend the wind to our whim. When a rudder starts to cavitate or stall you will still be able to wag the tiller or wheel and get water flowing over it again. The autopilot- maybe it'll know that buy then, maybe not.

So, while having systems that augment or compliment your own abilities does contribute to an overall increase in seamanship- I remain of the position that it must all be founded on a solid basis of fundamentals- and that joystick docking isn't that solid foundation.
 
#110 ·
C. Breeze-guess I see it another way. I see virtually no US boats on Paulo's thread. As the fishing industry dies in my neck of the woods more habor space is turned into condos, fewer areas to anchor/moor and more finger slips filled with Grand Banks and the like. I think anything that gets folks on the water in sailboats is a good thing. I think it's fun to show some one how to use their mooring lines and fore or aft power to move their bow or stern off the fuel dock. Think if we can get folks to appreciate the joy of sailing as time goes on they will use the dock and go progressively less as they enjoy the sense of accomplishment of bringing the boat in without it more. Think the right approach is to be more enclusive so we remain relevent when the various powers that be look at the services we use and we maintain a vibrant market to foster the industry that serves us.
P.S.- My package works well without aid. But embarressing those who need help is unkind in my view. I intentionally sized my boat so that I could run everything when the power fails but having power on all my winches means my admiral can single while I sleep. I think to whatever extent we can be enclusive, open to new sailors of all ages and abilities and openly non judgmentally share knowledge and skill it is good for all of us.
 
#111 ·
Please forgive the jab.

I have expressed well reasoned distaste with an advertisement, and you continue to make posts that essentially call my character into question, calling me ageist, suggesting I am unwilling to help those in need I meet along the way, and that I am somehow not inclusive o those new to sailing.

All of this makes it dificult for me to avoid caustic jabs.

But like my dad always said I am "strong like bull an smart like tractor" which is just smart enough to discontinue unpleasant interaction.
 
#113 ·
and you continue to make posts that essentially call my character into question
Comments like these don't help your position.

Tell you what- try to tuck up that Viagra inspired boner- and spare me the righteous indignation.
Please, can we refrain from the personal attacks and stick to disagreeing about the topic?
DRFerron is right, carry on.
 
#114 ·
No sailing-related forum discussion is worth hard feelings or personal attacks (I learned this the hard way).

It has been a long and frustrating winter, as evidenced by the disagreements on the forum. Soon we will all be sailing again under blue skies, water gurgling along the hull, and sunlight glinting off the water (and one would hope as little unnecessary gear as possible on the boat).
 
#116 ·
Wow! Interesting thread.

Well, here is my two (or three) cents worth:

Regarding winch placement and lines...

My boat is a Catalina 400. It has inmast furling. All the lines are run aft. I would not have it any other way. This is one of the key bonuses of inmast - you don't have to leave the cockpit in almost any weather. I find that more valueable on this boat and this configuratoin than keeping things at the mast. However, I am seriouzly looking at putting in clutches at the mast which would get the halyards out of my dodger. I have seen many boats do this and I think it is a great idea.

My dad's boat (and realistically ours too) is a Tayana Vancouver 42. It has a traditional slab reef. I obviously spend and have spent a fair amount of time on it. WHen we bought the boat, the boat had all the lines leading aft - in cluding the halyards and reefing lines. Hated it!! We had winches placed on the mast for reefing and hauling the halyard. Life is much, much better. On that boat, you can go to the mast, lean against the grannys, and relatively easily drop in a j-reef or raise the halyard. I find that with a trad main, you are probaly going to the mast to drop in a reef anyways (I always do/did on my 380 too). Might as well put the lines where they are easiest to handle.

SO two different boats, two different answers. I think both are right for those boats and rigging.

Regarding dodgers...

Sorry Jon - I love them. But yours and Dave's points are well taken about the "holes" through them. I will say that when crossing from Pensacola, we took a breaker onto the dodger that ripped the velcro off the bottom and put the water into the cockpit (not sure if that made sense). In one sense, I hated getting everything wet and wish it had been secured better (much like Valiant does theirs). On the other hand, I wonder what that kind of force would have done to the dodger had it not been able to release some of the load??? Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree with Dave that the boat should stay dry and salt free down below - especially as a cruiser. Otherwise, it is just misery.

Regarding all the new gadgets...

I have mixed opinions. THings like Sat phones, SSB, EPirbs, AIS, radar, and GPS have made us safer and less safe. Many of us sail via GPS/Chartplotter (I am one of them) and if they went down, many of us would have a real difficulty finding our way to our intended destination. Case in point: On the way back from the Tortugas one time, I shut off the chartplotter for a little practice session with my dead reckoning. You see, offshore I take 30 minute plottings on paper, with COG, SOG, wind, etc. It was a nice day and a good time to give my seamanship a test in controlled conditions. Well, within 30 minutes or an hour of careful hand steering, I sucesfully put us way off our course! THE XTE was terrible. Of course, I need more practice, but my point is that while many of these items make us safer, they also make us rusty on our seamanship. And to think that many people (even cruisers) I meet do not paper plot or often even carry paper backups... that is scary!! Regading the joy stick docking thing... well, I sure hope his battery doesn't go dead while he is near me! I would love to have a bow thruster on our boat, and would buy one if it were in the cruising budget, but somehow I have managed to get along without it. I will say that I have serious concerns for many of the boaters I see should their bow thruster go out. What happened to learning how to spring off a dock, bow-in to a slip, keep your boat pointed into the wind waiting for a bridge... etc.

Regarding inmast or inboom versus slab...

I was all against it until I had it and learned how to use it. I have written articles on this. I really like a GOOD inmast (there are some that are not). You are safe, you can reef to any point, you stay in the cockpit, you will likely use your main more, you can easily rig a trysail (two separate tracks), etc. I would not go back to a trad main unless I was racing.

Brian

PS Keep the comments focused on the subject, not the person. We are all friends here.
 
#117 ·
Cruising Dad as always you make very cogent and valuable points. Think you're right our skill sets are rusty and it is worthwhile to do DR exercises (think it would be fun).Perhaps even do a sight reduction.( just a easy one like lower limb of the moon-grin). The set up of reefing systems should reflect the needs of that specific vessel. I had a scary time so don't feel secure with in mast. View that sense of security (I can handle this) as a safety issue . Know some people swear by them and it does allow powering up a reefed main. Jon is right about the increase in vulnerablity with these increasingly complex systems. Hell beyond changing the oil can't even work on my truck any more. Did both an LAN (wireless) and hard wired system for key coponents of the nav-system. But gotta tell you the wireless remote for the autopilot is gonna be a great toy. It would scare me to have fly by wire as the sole system on a boat. But see it being on vehicles even motorcycles from my understanding. Technology is pervasive. Wonder to what degree it truly improve the quality of ours lives. Wonder about the proverbial ship and star to steer by.
 
#118 ·
But gotta tell you the wireless remote for the autopilot is gonna be a great toy...
It is, I wouldn't want to be without mine... If yours is by Raymarine, however, a word of caution is in order...

My S100 is powered by a pair of AAA batteries... If they go dead while the autopilot is in AUTO mode, it will switch the unit into STANDBY... Could result in big trouble, if you're not aware of it, and my owner's manual from Raymarine makes no mention whatsoever of this possiblilty...

Furthermore, there is no easy way to turn it off, it will only do so automatically if the pilot is in STANDBY mode for a few minutes... To avoid having to do that, I simply open the back cover and disconnect one of the batteries...

I've never used the more expensive and presumably more capable S1000, perhaps they've improved on some of these design flaws...

Great gadgets, however, no question about it... I would have killed for one on my last delivery south, some idiot had put the control head in an incredibly stupid location, very awkward to reach...
 
#119 ·
Jon- Really appreciate the heads up. You're right have the Raymarine with the long arm. They offer two remotes. The bigger one was rechargerable and showed instruments but thought the smaller one made more sense hanging around your neck. Figured KISS. Guess will have batteries in a baggie in the cockpit pocket and foulie pockets. Can you turn the pilot off at the wheel console and then just use that after you turn it back on? Will the system accept input after the batteries in the remote go dead?
 
#120 ·
Jon - Thanks from me, too, for the heads-up. My wife got me the S100 for Christmas, and I just installed it for use this season after we splash. It's good to have a warning about the battery issue.

Like outbound, I would be interested in knowing how to reset the Auto mode after the remote goes dead. I assume that once the S100 is dead and it goes back into standby, that you just have to walk to the wheel, re-establish the correct heading, then press "auto" on the main control panel. Please confirm if something else needs to be done, like pulling the dead batteries out of the unit.

I have a couple Eneloop AAA's, so maybe I'll use them and recharge after every couple of daysails, assuming that 2x1.2v NiMH power is adequate for the handset.

Also like outbound, I selected the S100 over the fancier one because it seemed better to hang around my neck. And I prefer using generic batteries over proprietary rechargables.

Maybe if I go overboard I can steer the boat back to me. (JUST KIDDING - I know the boat would be out of range in seconds.)
 
#121 ·
Like outbound, I would be interested in knowing how to reset the Auto mode after the remote goes dead. I assume that once the S100 is dead and it goes back into standby, that you just have to walk to the wheel, re-establish the correct heading, then press "auto" on the main control panel. Please confirm if something else needs to be done, like pulling the dead batteries out of the unit.
Yes, there's no trick to re-setting the pilot after it's turned off, you just need to be aware of the issue, is all... Either remove the batteries, and reset the pilot, or put it back in STANDBY and hand steer for a couple of minutes until the remote shuts itself off, then resume by hitting AUTO...

But I think it's quite common to be using the remote early in a trip or the beginning of a day, and then after clearing a harbor or inlet, and simply forgetting about it after establishing a course that's not gonna be altered for awhile... That's when it could be quite likely that the batteries might run down...

I've mentioned this issue to Raymarine reps at the boat shows over the years, but I'm not sure it ever gets passed on... It would be interesting to see whether a correction or addendum has ever been made to the owner's manual that accompanies the units currently being sold, perhaps you or Outbound can check if you see any mention of it in your manuals...

And, I should also mention, my S100 is several years old now, I bought mine not too long after they first came out... Perhaps Raymarine has resolved this issue, and it's no longer a problem with newer units like yours... You could probably run a test by pulling the batteries, and see if the pilot reverts to STANDBY... My control head is the 6002, a fairly recent model, so I doubt it's an issue the the control head, as opposed to the remote...

And of course, perhaps mine is simply unique, I've never used another on a different boat...
 
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