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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-30-2013 05:33 PM
Cruisingdad
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

I will say again that i agree with much of what Dave and Jon are saying. This is a rare occasion by the way(snicker). I will say once again that on the tayana (trad slab reef) it is best for halyard and reefs to be at the mast. The difference between a 30' racer or coastal boat and the tayana are significant. Superman couldn't get that sail up by hand at the mast. You are going to go up there anyways and the friction on these boats is significant. Now, compare that to many of the boats i have raced on or smaller boats and it is totally different.

I will disagree with them though on my boat or any inmast- there is no reason at all to have them at the stick. That is the benefit of inmast. I hAve had my dodger blown out, but prepare for it. When seas hit that point the companionway closed. Water runs off. You do need to plan ahead with where to put salty foul weather gear. Crew always walks to same place and keep that open. A shower is a great substitute for a wet locker. That is what we use.

Brian
03-30-2013 11:31 AM
aeventyr60
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Some people actually like working on deck and don't mind getting wet. Leading all my lines to the cockpit? Geez, what a lot or work and money for so little gain. Everything so simple to do at the mast. Not sure about all the personal gear in the cockpit getting wet, but, for me if it's in the cockpit, it might get wet and ruined if not up to snuff. We get torrential Sumatra squalls and wind here in SE Asia, we get WET in the cockpit, down below it's dry and cosy and hot. Nice to get a free fresh water shower while we are SAILING! I'm just a grotty yachtie, sailing a small boat on a big ocean, a bit wet at times, rocking chair not in sight, and no way am i a professional in any way shape or form. A week or ten days wet? Geez you guys are must be getting old? We are wet all the time! Baby powder works wonder for those wet spots.
03-30-2013 11:12 AM
SVAuspicious
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
Yes, clearly we are speaking from different perspectives. The only open ocean sailing I have done is on race boats where there are no dodgers, and the cockpits get wet.(mind you we aren't in the habit of burying rails and punching through waves!) If fact 90% of all the sailing I have done has been on boats without dodgers at all, so I have to chuckle when people wring their hands over getting a bit of water in the cockpit! Whatever do you do when it rains?
The boats I raced for 30 years on foredeck (wet) were all fiberglass below except for the sole. Cushions were vinyl covered. Bedding was double-bagged and we had plenty of double-bagged towels as well. When we ran out of dry stuff we coped.

That's entirely different from a cruising boat with rugs and maybe carpet, nice outfit below, and especially if it is someone's home, or available for private charter.

For small crews and long passages, including day after day droning down the ICW, water in the cockpit is a big deal. It soaks books, kills personal electronics, and makes the watch miserable. In those circumstances it isn't a race and you don't have the benefits of commiseration with a good-sized watch. Of such things are divorce made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
If you are worried about getting splashed when a wave washes the length of your deck, and hits your dodger with enough force for significant water to come through and splash you and make you uncomfortable for an entire watch, I would suggest that you are not dressed appropriately for the conditions!
Run seven to ten days and your opinion will change. Look at the difference between boats in Nanny Cay or BEYC with foulies hung everywhere and crew making run after run to the laundry and those with happy crew and happy owners sitting at the pool bar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
As for professionals saying the friction is not negligible, I think the fact that the vast majority of boats built today are rigged with lines aft, including race boats where being able to hoist and drop sails quickly and smoothly and make adjustments quickly and smoothly is paramount puts that opinion into question!
Not relevant for cruising boats. Lines are run aft because people THINK it is "better" and it sells. The same reasoning has led to big open salons with few handholds. Not relevant for race boats when the foredeck monkey is at the mast jumping the halyard for sail changes. Why do you think I have a sailbag that fits three sets of foulies? On a race boat you don't care that the cabin top is dominated by four winches to tweak one line or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
The convenience and versatility of aft lines easily outweighs any increased friction in almost every case. Perhaps some professionals are just a little bit set in their old ways?
Ah. So the increased friction DOES exist. It's just that Jon and I and perhaps Andrew are stuck in old ways, despite the listings of current technology we carry on our own boats. Despite miles under our keels on modern boats. Okay, fine. We're old fogies. Our advice isn't applicable to real sailors. Our long won scars aren't relevant to your needs. That's all okay with us.

Jon and I only know each other through these and other forums. Yet you hear the same sort of advice from both of us. Jon and I are looking forward to finally meeting this year. We'll get a picture sitting in rocking chairs, swaddled in afghans, sipping watered down rum watching new(er) sailors make the mistakes we have made and learned from instead of benefiting from our counsel and moving forward to make new and creative mistakes.

By no means do I suggest that I have all the answers. I learn something new nearly every day. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

When Jon and I agree I suggest there is value in listening whether you go your own way or not. When Jon and I disagree and hold a public discourse with contributions from many others there is probably yet more to be gleaned. I have had the benefit of participating in a number of discussions with and between luminaries of the sailing community during my tenure with SSCA and I learn a lot listening to conversations between people like Evans Starzinger and Nigel Calder. While Jon and I are not in the category of such as they we do have much to offer and are happy to share what we have learned with the sailing and cruising communities. It is up to you to decide if what we offer has value to you or not.
03-30-2013 11:06 AM
outbound
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Thanks Jon for your insight. Will pay attention to this on transit from Norfolk to R.I.. You got my brain working on how to decrease water ingress. Have much less experience than you but have had occasion of looking forward and just seeing the rig from the gooseneck up. Got rid of a solar vent in the middle of the overhead (now a deck plate) of the saloon because of just the same concern. Boy that Trinella is gorgeous. ?Do they still make any aluminum boats or just GRP?
03-30-2013 09:48 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I'm real curious about holes in dodger leading to significant water in cockpit. Built boat with hard dodger. Have 4 lines going through coaming and back to line stoppers then winches on either side of companion way. In past have just set tails of lines under dodger to get them out of the way. House top is beveled. Figured any water coming in would be minimal and run along leeward inside of dodger. Will have limber holes if necessary but now have gutter in forward cockpit seat so water would go to scupper. ?Is this really an issue especially as I tend to wear my foulie bottoms most always to keep my clothes underneath dry and salt free when doing passages? If a real issue may just stick a sponge in the holes which would pop out if lines were adjusted. Also tend to leave lowest board in most times as agree inside of boat should always be dry.
I wouldn't describe the issue as being one of a "significant" amount of water being admitted to the cockpit... I first mentioned the problem in another thread on leading lines aft, and would classify this as more of an 'annoyance' than anything, one of several downsides that I see to lines led aft and passed through the leading faces of dodgers... Agreed, this is not likely to be much of a problem on your boat, and I generally see it to be much more of an issue on boats with conventional soft dodgers, and much more loosely configured cut-outs for the lines...

Again, on boats primarily being day sailed or cruised shorter distances, this may not necessarily be that big a deal... But during longer stints offshore or underway, there are few greater annoyances than even minor or modest topside leaks, they can really provoke misery, and diminish the crew's morale... The space under the dodger affords the only dry or protected spot in the cockpits of most boats, and any effort to keep it truly dry will be rewarded... That spot either side of the companionway becomes a catch-all for stuff like gloves, or your copy of Eldridge, so even a modest amount of water seeping in can make you wish it was more watertight...

It's hard to understate how even the most innocuous ingress of water can ruin your day... I delivered this Trintella 50 for years, which featured this watertight doghouse that was much appreciated in dirty weather... But, stuff the bow on that boat into a big head sea, it's not difficult to picture how easily green water can be swept back on deck to that doghouse...



I was taking VALOUR one time from Jersey City up to Newport for the Bermuda Race, and the last half of the trip featured some hellacious weather, and a torrential downpour that lasted the better part of a day... After arriving at NEB, we noticed that the beautiful (and rather expensive) fine art print of a John Stobart painting that was mounted on the main bulkhead had become water-stained...

Spent most of the following day trying to find the source of the leak, after removing the entire overhead, etc... Turned out it was barely traceable, the most minor leak imaginable, at the base of one of windshield wipers on the doghouse, and migrated forward and down the bulkhead...
03-30-2013 07:26 AM
downeast450
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I think the whole set of frictional loss, and dodger issues are a reflection of sailing styles and venues. Both can be real issues for the way that some folk sail but not for others.

As someone like myself who loves performance sailing, comes out of racing, single-hands in coastal waters, carries more sail than I should,and is constantly tweaking, I could not live without my lines run aft. I purposely use low friction roller blocks and small diameter low stretch high modulus line to minimize the impact of the lines run aft. Like Take Five points out, I 'jump' my halyards at the mast when there is someone to tail for me, and at those times, I 'sweat' up the last little bit (pull the halyard away from the mast to get more mechanical advantage) which you can't do so easy from the cockpit.

Jeff
Jeff,

Do you use cam cleats on the mast to hold your halyards, after jumping them, until you can get back to the winch in the cockpit? My boat is set up that way and it works well.

Down
03-30-2013 03:14 AM
SchockT
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I don't think it's a pet peeve. I have way to many issues about which I think "aren't you LISTENING?" to call this one thing a pet peeve.

In fairness, if you just do daysails and weekends and stay at the dock if the weather kicks up my concerns may not be relevant.

I would point out that both Jon Eisberg and I have noted the relationship between lines led aft and water in the cockpit. It really is a problem. Even a cup of water in your lap at the beginning of a four hour watch is a problem. If you're singlehanding wet nether regions in the morning may mean having to deal with a change of clothes with no one to take the wheel. Not terrible with an autopilot offshore but a real time waste to anchor if you're on the ICW or other restricted waterway. Add some cold to that equation and think about the results.

You've got at least two professionals saying the friction is not negligible.
Yes, clearly we are speaking from different perspectives. The only open ocean sailing I have done is on race boats where there are no dodgers, and the cockpits get wet.(mind you we aren't in the habit of burying rails and punching through waves!) If fact 90% of all the sailing I have done has been on boats without dodgers at all, so I have to chuckle when people wring their hands over getting a bit of water in the cockpit! Whatever do you do when it rains? If you are worried about getting splashed when a wave washes the length of your deck, and hits your dodger with enough force for significant water to come through and splash you and make you uncomfortable for an entire watch, I would suggest that you are not dressed appropriately for the conditions!

As for professionals saying the friction is not negligible, I think the fact that the vast majority of boats built today are rigged with lines aft, including race boats where being able to hoist and drop sails quickly and smoothly and make adjustments quickly and smoothly is paramount puts that opinion into question! The convenience and versatility of aft lines easily outweighs any increased friction in almost every case. Perhaps some professionals are just a little bit set in their old ways?
03-29-2013 02:31 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

I'm really struggling to think of sea condition scenario where I would be dry, if not for the water that came up over the height of our cabin top in sufficient volume to make it through the chase for the aft led lines.

And, if it did, it would not enter the cabin, if the hatch is closed. No way. I routinely hose the cockpit down with gallons of water and not a drop.
03-29-2013 02:06 PM
outbound
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

I'm real curious about holes in dodger leading to significant water in cockpit. Built boat with hard dodger. Have 4 lines going through coaming and back to line stoppers then winches on either side of companion way. In past have just set tails of lines under dodger to get them out of the way. House top is beveled. Figured any water coming in would be minimal and run along leeward inside of dodger. Will have limber holes if necessary but now have gutter in forward cockpit seat so water would go to scupper. ?Is this really an issue especially as I tend to wear my foulie bottoms most always to keep my clothes underneath dry and salt free when doing passages? If a real issue may just stick a sponge in the holes which would pop out if lines were adjusted. Also tend to leave lowest board in most times as agree inside of boat should always be dry.
03-29-2013 12:24 PM
Cruisingdad
Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I don't think it's a pet peeve. I have way to many issues about which I think "aren't you LISTENING?" to call this one thing a pet peeve.

In fairness, if you just do daysails and weekends and stay at the dock if the weather kicks up my concerns may not be relevant.

I would point out that both Jon Eisberg and I have noted the relationship between lines led aft and water in the cockpit. It really is a problem. Even a cup of water in your lap at the beginning of a four hour watch is a problem. If you're singlehanding wet nether regions in the morning may mean having to deal with a change of clothes with no one to take the wheel. Not terrible with an autopilot offshore but a real time waste to anchor if you're on the ICW or other restricted waterway. Add some cold to that equation and think about the results.

You've got at least two professionals saying the friction is not negligible.



Boat size is something I haven't given adequate credence to. Smaller boats have lighter sails and the impact on boat motion of going forward is substantial on a smaller boat. The difference between my current 22,000# boat and my previous Catalina 22 is significant. I go forward without much concern in the middle of the ocean on Auspicious. Going to the mast of the 22 foot LB was spooky.



Then with all due respect you need a better autopilot and maybe a remote. The more turns you have in the lead of a control line (not mechanical advantage - just lead turns) the harder it is to tweak. All that extra friction and stretch make adjustment that much more difficult.



This is a bigger issue with people who liveaboard and cruise. It isn't like we can go home and run all the fabric through the laundry. Keep the water and salt of the boat because the boat is home.



Which is why the best place for a head is at the bottom of the companionway.



Okay for purposes of discussion, but static friction is significant in all but the best blocks.

best, dave
I too agree about the friction issue and keeping things dry - as I mentioned. The friction issue is however more of an issue on traditional slab reefing boats versus inmast. On inmast, everything is done by hand on our boat anyways. And having salty clothes is a nightmare aboard. THey nnever get dry. That is why we keep "outside" clothes and inside. THis works well with bathingsuits and beach towels.

Brian
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