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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Why a racer for cruising discussion...
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Thread: Why a racer for cruising discussion... Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-07-2013 04:13 PM
steve77
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Oh cool! We are arguing about sleep now. I'm an expert at sleeping. I do it everyday. In fact, I sleep more than I sail.
Reminds me of the Steven Wright joke:

"Honey, did you sleep well?"
"No, I made a couple mistakes."
05-07-2013 02:01 PM
bobperry
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Out:
Me too. That casting takes a lot of energy.

Had a dream last night that I was buying new kitchen appliances for the house. I was buying some appliances that I had seen in an Indian restaurant.

Go figure.
05-07-2013 01:55 PM
outbound
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Just came in from fishing.gonna take a nap.
05-07-2013 12:40 PM
PCP
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Oh cool! We are arguing about sleep now. I'm an expert at sleeping. I do it everyday. In fact, I sleep more than I sail.
Absolutely, the expert are you but I certainly sleep more then I sail...well, almost all time, but there are times where I sail more than I sleep and sometimes I sleep when I sail, other times I sleep and sail like a a crazy metronome

Regards

Paulo
05-07-2013 12:28 PM
bobperry
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Oh cool! We are arguing about sleep now. I'm an expert at sleeping. I do it everyday. In fact, I sleep more than I sail.
05-07-2013 12:15 PM
outbound
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Once again you misconstrued my statement. I just said I do not wish to be involved in this activity. I am well of the science. I do it for a living
05-07-2013 11:18 AM
PCP
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- You speak to very short term effects. For instance, in men the major release of growth hormone occurs in the first period of stage 3 ( slow wave sleep). The web address you cited concerning the round Britain race noted that individual intentionally did not allow himself to enter slow wave sleep due to concern he would be hard to wake. 15 minute naps due not allow stage R sleep to occur until the deprivation from this stage causes a REM rebound like effect. The hallucinations you refer to are thought to be microsleeps with REM intrusion.In simplistic terms I think it not unlikely this person for some days is likely to have much stage 2 sleep and less stage 3 ( restores the body) and REM ( restores the mind). Yes, I'm aware of techniques to mitigate the cognitive effects of fragmented sleep but once again can not endorse doing the activity you suggest. Please respect that decision.
Off course I respect your not endorsement as I respect the ones that recommend it to as the best technique to reduce fatigue for a limited period of intensive sailing. They are also physicians and have been studding sleep management for solo sailors for decades with amazingly good results.

As I said on a temporary basis. Anyway as I said, I want to know more...but not now. I will come back to it.

Regards

Paulo
05-07-2013 09:29 AM
outbound
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo- You speak to very short term effects. For instance, in men the major release of growth hormone occurs in the first period of stage 3 ( slow wave sleep). The web address you cited concerning the round Britain race noted that individual intentionally did not allow himself to enter slow wave sleep due to concern he would be hard to wake. 15 minute naps due not allow stage R sleep to occur until the deprivation from this stage causes a REM rebound like effect. The hallucinations you refer to are thought to be microsleeps with REM intrusion.In simplistic terms I think it not unlikely this person for some days is likely to have much stage 2 sleep and less stage 3 ( restores the body) and REM ( restores the mind). Yes, I'm aware of techniques to mitigate the cognitive effects of fragmented sleep but once again can not endorse doing the activity you suggest. Please respect that decision.
05-07-2013 08:28 AM
PCP
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- On another thread I gently tried to point out I was concerned there may be health risks to this activity. There is an area of the brain called the supra chiasmic nucleus (SCN). It sets the circadian rhythm of your entire body. Both simple things like core body temperature, autonomic tone, hormone release and more complicated things like cognition and immune function. It in turn responds to "time givers" such as the tract (not involved in vision) which goes directly to this area from the retina. Activity and eating also feed into it. All cells ( even in bacteria or worms) have per and clock genes. The function of the SCN is to see all our cells are working in concert. If either by choice ( sailing) or demand (shift work or torture) the function of the SCN is disturbed there would seem to be a risk of significant health consequences ( such as the increased risk of cancer in shift workers). Interrupted sleep disturbs the circadian rhythm. The normal functions of sleep for the brain and body do not normally occur.Simply stated fragmented sleep is not of the same quality nor benefit as a normal sleep period inside a normal circadian rhythm. Again in my first post concerning this I expressed an concern that the repetitive disturbance of sleep associated with certain activities may have health effects. I'm unaware of literature concening sailing in this regard and would think an epidemiologic study to quantify the effects if any might be problematic. I'm aware of mechanisms to mitigate the short term effects of sleep disturbance and allow people to recognize these effects to ward against untoward behaviors as a consequence. But as a physician I think it would do the topic and the reader a disservice to engage in the activity you propose as it would give it short shrift and run the risk of not furthering health and well being. Hence, with all due respect decline your invitation
Fair enough and I think you are right on a permanent basis or even on a regular basis but that is not something you are going to use on a regular basis.

I know of some studies and I think it would give an interesting thread. I din't have the time to do it right now (I am almost leaving for cruising) but when I come back in October we will discuss that in a thread. I think it is a very interesting topic.

The studies and improvements that took place in what regards sleep management and solo racing are huge. I remember that 15 years ago it was vulgar the racers on the Vendee Globe having hallucinations and break downs due to sleep deprivation. Today all are trained and accompanied by physicians and there are no cases of hallucinations anymore or physical break down and you even so on the last race, after almost 3 months on those conditions, the two leading racers fighting for victory as if it was a match race, not for one or two days, but for 15 days. You could tell by their daily video broadcasts that they were in good shape and not near break down.

I don't want to learn about that for doing it for 3 months. I guess some days would be enough for me. In fact what I have learned through the years reading about that and how that should be done have improved me already as a sailor and I can feel that I manage much better my sleep needs while voyaging. The objective of sleep management is not being sleep deprived or tired and that does not mean doing that forever, but for a short period of time.

Regards

Paulo
05-06-2013 11:35 PM
outbound
Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo- On another thread I gently tried to point out I was concerned there may be health risks to this activity. There is an area of the brain called the supra chiasmic nucleus (SCN). It sets the circadian rhythm of your entire body. Both simple things like core body temperature, autonomic tone, hormone release and more complicated things like cognition and immune function. It in turn responds to "time givers" such as the tract (not involved in vision) which goes directly to this area from the retina. Activity and eating also feed into it. All cells ( even in bacteria or worms) have per and clock genes. The function of the SCN is to see all our cells are working in concert. If either by choice ( sailing) or demand (shift work or torture) the function of the SCN is disturbed there would seem to be a risk of significant health consequences ( such as the increased risk of cancer in shift workers). Interrupted sleep disturbs the circadian rhythm. The normal functions of sleep for the brain and body do not normally occur.Simply stated fragmented sleep is not of the same quality nor benefit as a normal sleep period inside a normal circadian rhythm. Again in my first post concerning this I expressed an concern that the repetitive disturbance of sleep associated with certain activities may have health effects. I'm unaware of literature concening sailing in this regard and would think an epidemiologic study to quantify the effects if any might be problematic. I'm aware of mechanisms to mitigate the short term effects of sleep disturbance and allow people to recognize these effects to ward against untoward behaviors as a consequence. But as a physician I think it would do the topic and the reader a disservice to engage in the activity you propose as it would give it short shrift and run the risk of not furthering health and well being. Hence, with all due respect decline your invitation
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