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Why a racer for cruising discussion...

32K views 237 replies 34 participants last post by  steve77 
#1 ·
We all have different opinions of what makes a good cruising boat. I get that. Believe me, Paulo's idea of what makes a good cruising boat, Jeff_h's, my dad's, and mine are three different animals altogether! I respect all of their opinions, but I have long tried to make a different case.

My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising? I am sure to get the typical response of, "Because we appreciate being able to sail and appreciate sailing over creature comforts." I have heard some variation of that for years. But, for a fulltime cruising boat, do you really gain that much going to a racing boat for cruising?

First, lets define cruising. Cruising, in my opinion (and everyone gets their own), is fulltime, probably no house, everything in storage, I am going-going-going or living on the water for well over a year, and likely many years, if not permanently. I have to tell you that the difference between taking off for a few weeks or even a few months (both of which I have done) while still maintaining a residence is TOTALLY different than selling it all and sailing (which we do now). Why? Because when you sell it all and sail, you don't have the luxury of odd storage, a place to return to when the boat gets cramped, that (un)realistic knowledge in the back of your head that if your boat sinks, you will just have to move back to your house and deal with the insurance company. I think SSCA has a similar definition, which I agree with, but I guess everyone gets their own. What I don't think is cruising is taking off for a few weeks, maybe a few months, where the idiosyncracies of your boat can just be shrugged off until you get back home. That seems like vacationing to me.

Next, lets define racer/performance/HD. My idea of a performance boat is a boat that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions. These are the typical conditions a cruiser will set off in, not necessarily the conditions they will see. Lets say these conditions are 15-20 kts sustained. A boat that cannot reach hull speed at these numbers is what I would define as a HD (heavy displacement cruiser... though I can think of a few more metaphors!). A boat that goes well over hull speed in 15-20, or in less than 15 sustained, I would define as a racer. Again, these are all open to discussion. They are my loose definitions.

Now, I am not in any way suggesting that everyone needs to get a HD Cruiser for cruising (though an argument can be made for them), but why get a racer? The majority of these boats are generally narrow beams, light storage, very light tankage, and deep draft. Many have air draft over 65, cutting off any hope of the ICW, and I can even make a good argument that air and water drafts over ICW limits also cut off safety. The comment will come up as usual, "because we appreciate a performing boat over the creature comforts." Well, if you are cruising, is your boat really still a racer?

For example, my boat used to be a LOT faster than it is now. SHe loved to jump up and go, and now it takes pretty close to 20 to get her at hull speed or thereabouts. I have a LOT of stuff on my boat, and I have two kids. I will admit that without the kids, it would be easier to rearrange this stuff to make it more accommodating for speed. Heck, our cans and food would be cut over half! But does my boat really have that much stuff on it for a cruising boat? Solar? Gotta make power some way. Without solar you are doomed to make power with a generator and subsequently carry more gas and diesel at what can easily add up to more weight. Water jugs. A few diesel jugs. Lots of food. Lots of tools. Lots of spare parts. Life raft. Some books (more minimal now with kindle). Snorkel gear (though I carry dive gear too). Tender. TV. Guitar. Bike. Cart. Minimal documents (now have scanned in most). My boat is heavy. I could cut some stuff, but these all get used and make our boat our home.

So what do you cut? And more importantly, where do you put that stuff that you feel is essential on a race boat? Most of the cruising boats I see, which have lots of storage, still have stuff crammed in every corner and every spare inch. I am not going to say I couldn't get rid of some stuff, but our deal is that if we don't use it much, it is off the boat (spare parts and tools the exception). Lets see, just my tools take up a 30x30x60 area... and that does not even include all the spare parts! Pots and pans of various sizes, including vacuseal bags, flower, sugar, and other necessary items take up the exact same side across from it. Can goods and bottled water fill the bilge. Spare parts in the holds below the waterline. Everything heavy is low, light is high. Most everything on this boat is secured in a locker or behind strong fiddleboards.

So again, what do you cut on a race boat? Can you? Cabinetry is often at a minimum. If you do not cut much, is that boat still a race boat? My argument has long been that when cruising on one of these boats, the stuff that the HD or even performance boats can stowe safely below and in holds, you end up stuffing in every corner, above the waterline, and/or on deck. Whereas we can keep most of our stuff safely secured and below the waterline, you may not or your boat is sooo stuffed down below that you cannot move around. And if you stuff it above deck, is that boat still performing well? Is she still safe for cruising? Because if you put 5000 pounds of stuff on a boat that is 25,000 lbs, then you have altered its displacement by 17%. If you put that same 5000 lbs on a boat that displaces 15000 lbs, you have altered its displacement by 25%... or about 50% more. Not to mention, much of that stuff in my opinion will go above the waterline and on decks whereas other boats can keep it below.

Now, a 40 foot racer as a man cave, single guy, I get that. I don't agree with it, but I get it. Its just you. But can you and a spouse really make that work long term? With kids? And is your boat going to be safer than mine, or a HD cruiser, when you really load it up with what you will need to cruise with? My guess (GUESS) is that you have now really changed that boat and the very properties you came to admire it for are now lost upon your chosen lifestyle. I also guess (GUESS) that in reality, that boat is less safe than the typical HD or performance cruiser which has the ability to properly stowe items.

What are others opinions? Agree? Disagree? Why?

Brian
 
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#2 ·
What you write is the essential reason for the huge variety of boats and the continued demand for custom designs.

Everybody's idea of the "ideal" sailboat is different - even within the various subsets like cruising boats.

Even within the different points in a single persons life for that matter.

I can well appreciate the "all the comforts of home" offered by Huntabenelinas but my taste runs more towards a more "roughing it" type of boat - simpler and with more personality. I also prefer more involvement in boat handling than the set it and forget it, all furling rigs.
 
#3 ·
I kind of like the racers for their simplicity more than anything else.

Since many "cruisers" as you define them, statistically, are at a point in their lives (50's or over empty nesters) where they can afford new or new-ish large cruising boats, the numerous systems probably become less of an issue to them.

But I certainly know that every boat I've ever stepped foot in myself has been close to 30 years old. And things like hoses, through-hulls, miles of old and sometimes-shorted (always corroded) wiring, etc. etc., all hidden behind cosmetic paneling and very difficult to access, makes a "cruising" boat a huuuuuuge PITA.

Things like in-mast mainsail furling and other complications to rigging also in my opinion make some "cruising" boats more anchor-friendly, but less sailing friendly.

That said, even a racer is gonna be slow if it's loaded down, especially a boat designed to plane or semi-plane, it gives up something upwind for that planing hull-form and if you are too heavy to plane off the wind, you are possibly slower overall than a true cruising boat.

The solution? GET A BIGGER BOAT

:)
 
#4 ·
To be honest when we do distance races its serious to US and for us distance is 200 miles or less

So you have 7 people doing 3 hours on at most then crashing and doing it again until the finish

Anything remotely nice down below is a problem as your dragging sails up and down constantly And in generally can't really be worried about nicking fine woodwork :)
 
#5 ·
Interesting definition of a cruiser. Is a cruiser someone who stays in the Caribbean or one who cruises in many different varieties of conditions. Person who never goes more than 500 miles from their home base and just circles the Carribean to me is a live aboard who takes trips, not a cruiser. Gary was a cruiser IMHO. Wingnwing live aboard cruiser in my definition.

Someone like Killarney is really a cruiser to me. Many different wind conditions. Can't just run in for protection in 2 or 3 days. Endures light winds and the. Boat moves, and heavier winds and seas without trepidation. Most cruisers I know are couples. Not all require the creature comforts like air, etc.. Many prefer a simpler less expensive way of cruising you do. They are more of minimalist nature. Look at the anchorages of the real world traveling cruisers who travel in style .they have Amels, Moody's, Hans Christians, Taswells, Passports, Vagabonds, Outbounds, Oysters, Calibers, Hylas. These are not the charter boats of he Carribean.

A cruiser hits many brief wind conditions as they travel to many different areas. Not just 15-20 in the trades, but also lighter winds too. The cruiser definition you used will never apply to 98% of us. Most of us are hybrids. Very few of us are live aboards therefore we don't need to carry what we have around with us all the time. Even when we travel 6months a year to the Caribbean we will not be considered cruisers by your narrow definition. So I guess we will be taken a 6 month vacation on our boat by your definition. Not our definition by the way, I think we will consider ourself cruising because of the distances we will e traveling as well as the many destinations.

Racers. True racers I have see are like cruisers at he other end of the spectrum. They are a breed who goes fast...all the time, light and heavy wind. The have minimal accommodations major electronics , huge winches, open cockpits, many different sails. Most of us are not racers either. Look t he Vende boats, those are racers.

Sundeers are racers.

Racers and Cruisers make up 2% at each end of he sailing community. The rest of us in the middle with attributes of both ends of different degrees. As mentioned boat makers hybridize to catch our individual preferences, that's why so many variations from J and X yachts to Catalina's, Bennes, Hunters to Tartans, Sabres....to Hanse.. To Ip.

Paulo likes performance cruisers, I do also. Most of they rest of us on Sailnet are in the middle. Never to be racers or cruisers by your definition.

Boats have so many accessories you can add to turn any boat into a cruiser for living style. However you cannot turn some boats into performance boats. Many boats can hit hull speed, but can they blue after it for 30,000 miles without busting apart? Will they last 20 years sailing in blue water.

I am alo a member of SCCA. What type of boas do you see they have?
 
#6 ·
Brian, this is akin to debating whether you are a serious racer if you haven't taken sandpaper and removed the varnish and the bulkheads on your boat.

It is what it is, and each person sets their own criteria for how far they pursue the differences.

One skipper has coffee cups. The next has titanium coffee mugs, because whether he's racing or cruising, they weigh less and make his boat faster and lighter--which is safer for cruisers as well. And then the next guy won't allow coffee cups onboard at all, because real sailors don't need "hot" anything at all, and the excess weight is intolerable.

A cruiser with two kids aboard? Come on now, Fedex takes live animals. The kids can spend the night on a carousel in Memphis, and join you once you make landfall. :)
 
#7 ·
The more I think of it, the less sense it makes to try to define terms like 'cruiser' and 'blue water boat', when we think of some of the people we have met while cruising. On one hand, a couple on an Oyster 56 bought from the factory exactly to spec with the owner in the factory most days to make sure it was done right. On the other hand, a singlehander on an engineless Bristol 27 that was older than the owner by quite a few years. Both boats though were on pretty much the same path at roughly similar speeds.

I think when we get down to it, we really define for ourselves what cruising is (or is not) and what boat makes sense for what we want to do. I would not want to do the singlehanded, Bristol way and I can't afford the new, big Oyster route so we made our own definitions and got on with it.
 
#8 ·
I would also take issue with such a narrow definition of a cruiser. As far as I am concerned, if you are going away on your boat for multiple days for the purpose of exploring, or just getting away, you are cruising. You can sneer at such people and say they are not "real" cruisers all you want but the fact is the vast majority of people who consider themselves to be cruisers do not fit your definition.

If I WERE going to leave my entire land based life behind and live on a boat, I certainly wouldn't do it on a pure race boat unless my intention was a high speed circumnavigation of some kind. I doubt many people would.

In the context of your very narrow definition of cruisers and racers your question is pointless, because few, if any, of YOUR kind of cruisers WOULD use a race boat.
 
#15 ·
I would also take issue with such a narrow definition of a cruiser. As far as I am concerned, if you are going away on your boat for multiple days for the purpose of exploring, or just getting away, you are cruising. You can sneer at such people and say they are not "real" cruisers all you want but the fact is the vast majority of people who consider themselves to be cruisers do not fit your definition.

If I WERE going to leave my entire land based life behind and live on a boat, I certainly wouldn't do it on a pure race boat unless my intention was a high speed circumnavigation of some kind. I doubt many people would.

In the context of your very narrow definition of cruisers and racers your question is pointless, because few, if any, of YOUR kind of cruisers WOULD use a race boat.
Again, this thing has morphed into something I never said, not did I in any way imply it. If the word 'sneer' was directed at me, I take offense to that. Don't start putting words in my mouth if it was directed to me.

My definition of a cruiser is more to define the use of the boat versus who is a cruiser. Like I said, I don't care if you have a hobie cat in your drive on a trailer and call yourself a circumnavigator. Makes no difference to me and I couldn't care less. There is no better or worse way. My way is not right and yous is not wrong. My point was to point out that there is a HUGE difference between what you consider a cruiser "going away on your boat for multiple days for the purpose of exploring" versus someone who is living aboard, travelling to various places, for months at a time or years at a time. I have done it your way and my way and many ways between. Believe me, there is a difference!! The definition of a cruiser as how it defines the use of the boat is what I was laying out because that use defines boat selection in my opinion. As I stated above, this is about boat selection - specifically how it pertains to a racer-cruiser, not the definition of who is a 'real' cruiser.

Brian
 
#9 ·
15-2 knots of wind?!?!?! that as noted would be tradewinds only! Here in puget sound, many more days one needs a good iron genny to get around! Even if you only own theboat/house etc!

Locally any how, there was a "race your house" ace last october. As Irecall, the types of boats varied as much as one would like to see. From a few heavy tayana style boats, to a 40 Elan that was in that brands race/cruise mix.

I also know of one fellow living on board the saem boat I have, ie about the size of a catalina 28 mkII! so, live aboards and cruisers fit all kinds of sizes and shapes etc.......

At the end of the day, you will get what works for the type of cruising you do.....in the mean time, anybody know where I can get an extra 6" of draft for my boat, would like it to be 6' vs the 5.5!

Marty
 
#10 ·
A "pure" race boat would be a HORRIBLE cruiser. Why? Well how is it when the head is out in the open? No shower. No insulation. Sometimes needs more people to properly sail. Usually has more sail area requiring more care to sail. Is made lighter, and usually light isnt as durable.

I think anyone doing long term cruising wants the amenities of home. Heat/AC, insulation, electronics (radio/TV) easy to sail shorthanded, more stable and can handle more weather. Yes there are plenty of race boats that sail around the world in all kinds of weather, but even the Volvo 60s/70s and Vendee boats had major failures, and they were made to go around the world.

Now there are lots of race inspired cruising boats. The Beneteau First 30, Elan 310, Junneau Sunfast 3200, etc. These are boats they say can race well, but are also stable and easy to sail as well as have full interiors and lots of amenities. I ALMOST bought a First 30 because of how much more comfortable the boat was below deck, yet still was easy to sail, and had nearly the performance of a race boat.
 
#11 ·
Side note on the guy I mentioned who is singlehanding a Bristol 27. Saw a post by him on CF (he is in New Zealand now). He said that he paid $1000 for his used Monitor which is what he paid for the boat. There is no one model of a cruiser.
 
#13 ·
I wonder if I met him!? We met a tall, slender caucasian, maybe low 40's, on a Bristol 27 in the Tortugas. He was with a younger caucasian male in his 20's - don't think it was his son, but not sure. No engine. We had to tie off of his stern to snorkel and dive the Windjammer as there was only one ball. If so, it is a small world. Of course, I find that I keep running into the same people.

Brian
 
#12 ·
My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising?

Cruising, in my opinion (and everyone gets their own), is fulltime, probably no house, everything in storage, I am going-going-going or living on the water for well over a year, and likely many years, if not permanently.
Somehow this has turned into a, "What is a cruiser" thread. I do think that some kind of definition is important because it sets a boundary on how the boat is going to be used. How the boat is going to be used has everything to do with boat selection. Whether anyone here considers themselves to be a cruiser, someone else to be a cruiser, or only thinks Beth Leonard et all are cruisers is kinda beyond what this thread was about. There is simply nothing wrong with using the boat on weekends, months off on far away islands while returning to your home every summer, or full-time, no house, no nothing but a boat and the world and the water beyond. What makes YOU happy is what is important, not the definition of what a cruiser is. Quite candidly, I don't care if you have a hobie cat sits in your driveway on the trailor and you call yourself a circumnavigating cruiser. That is just a label, and a nebulous one at best. It is how you use the boat, and how you define 'cruiser', that influences boat selection and is what I was hoping to discuss... especially how it influences those that choose a 'racer-cruiser' or my definition of a racer as a primary 'cruising' boat. Make sense?

This thread has stemmed from several long discussion both on this board and off of it (more off of it, surprisingly) about boat selection. There was the Blue Jacket thread where me and Paulo highly disagreed, the Smackdaddy boat selection thread where me and Jeff disagreed, and a number of older posts where someone says, "I am going to go cruising and looking for a Bene First or J122 to go cruising on." It is generally at this point that I find myself a bit miffed on how they make this work. Whether they do it or are going to do it is none of my business, and frankly, I don't care. It is their life and their money. This is a theoretical discussion.

As I recall, both J and Bene call their boats Racer-cruiser. My point in this was as a cruiser, how do you make this boat work? Who really has made it work? What did you cut to make it work, or did you cut anything that I carry? How many people did you have aboard? Most importantly, how does a racer-cruiser really and truly perform as a cruising boat when loaded down with the things I find essential? Is it still a fast boat? Due to its traditionally narrow beam, lack of storage, low water and fuel caps, etc... aren't many of the things that a HD/performance Cruiser can store safely and securely, now stored in a fashion that may make them unsafe or significantly alter the righting moment of the racer-cruiser?

Brian
 
#17 ·
It's really hard to make specific references like this is what cruiser is.....and a racer is a narrow beamed boat without " categorizing" a pigeon holing things. The reaction you received may not have been what you intended but obviously is what a few independent people interpretted what was said by you So maybe let's eliminate the word cruiser...as I don't fit your narrow definition.

People buy boats hopefully for their intended uses. It is individual owner specific. You have 2 kids on your boat all the time. Most don't. That means you want two heads, I don't. That means you want a large cockpit, I don't. It may mean you want an open transom , I don't. Beam is important to you or room, not for me if it slows me down. We both like our grills:)

Tankage is important in terms of fuel, but I can manage with 100 gallons of water and a water maker. I don't want a furled main, I want a performance main which is run on he KISS principal. One forestry is enough or you, I want a detachable inner stay or second furled headsail for long distance passage making. I need a 6gallon hot water tank you need at least 12. I want solar arrays , wind generation and a Honda 2000. You want a generator.

There is much more. But the drift is I want a performance cruiser which gets up and goes. In the 40 foot range a Hanse, a Saga, a Sabre. Something which is very safe and comfortable for two.

There are too many variations of sailboats just like sailors which tick off boxes for each of us to narrow it down. A live aboard will look or different qualities than a world cruiser. A live aboard may have a different view about boat speed and want the space of an IP or such, where a long instance cruiser sees the advantage the of a 5 day passage taking 4 with a performance cruiser.

I just read the blog of a purple on a large J ( a 42 I think) which crossed the Atlantic in 3 days less than most because of its performance in light winds. It had enough creature comforts for me.

This is a hard topic to generalize on as there are so many different qualities and combinations we all require for our boats. I say get what fits you and what fits your needs. I ll get what fits mine and well both be happy cruising on the water as we got what we wanted.
 
#18 ·
Brian,
Your original question, I think, was "why a racer as a cruiser". I think that depends on what your goal is. Are you using the boat as a means to go from one port to another, or as a means of escaping land? If your goal is to go from port to port, a racer makes some sense to me, because it gets you from Point A to Point B faster than a cruiser, or another way to look at it is that it gets you from Point A to Point C, where a cruiser only gets you to Point B. The racer probably won't get you there as comfortably, nor will you probably be as comfortable aboard when you're finally at the dock, but that's the trade-off, isn't it?

Similarly, if your goal is to get away from land, then a racer probably isn't the best choice. Of course I'm overgeneralizing in my characterizations of both types of boats, but the narrower beam will mean less elbow room in the racer, and most people (there are exceptions, but a family of 4 probably isn't among them) need/want space. The cruiser will give you more room for creature comforts, and the ability to spread out (provided you don't add TOO many creature comforts) more than the racer. Plus, the (likely) shallower keel on the cruiser will mean you can do more exploring, and get into more ports. Even if you're port-hopping, you may not get to the next port as quickly as in the racer, but you'll probably be more comfortable when you get there, and while you're there.

So, what's your goal? To get from point to point quickly, or to slow down and enjoy the ride?
 
#19 ·
I chose my my boat, a C&C 40, for cruising because I like to sail...really love to sail. I mean, I'm passionate about it; I can get off a two-week delivery and clean the boat up in a rush so I can get out on my little boat and go sailing.

I love the way the C&C handles under sail and I love the feedback from the rudder to my fingers as I lightly hold the wheel. She is very clearly a racer/cruiser with relatively light displacement and most sisterships are used mostly for racing.

While I probably won't move aboard and take off cruising, in the back of my mind is the knowledge that I could. I know of two sisterships whose crews are doing just that.

As I travel, I see very few cruising boats that are fun to drive; it's a major hardship for the self steering to fail on those boats. Not so on mine; she's the kind of boat where we'll turn Otto off and steer by hand just for the fun of it. And that's a benefit of cruising on a racing boat. For me, the sailing part of cruising is just as important as exploring new harbors, rather than an ordeal to be put up with between stops.
 
#20 · (Edited)
We all have different opinions of what makes a good cruising boat. I get that. Believe me, Paulo's idea of what makes a good cruising boat, Jeff_h's, my dad's, and mine are three different animals altogether! I respect all of their opinions, but I have long tried to make a different case.

My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising? I am sure to get the typical response of, "Because we appreciate being able to sail and appreciate sailing over creature comforts." I have heard some variation of that for years. But, for a fulltime cruising boat, do you really gain that much going to a racing boat for cruising?

...
Brian, I don't have a single idea of what makes a good cruising boat. I know what I want from a cruising boat for doing the cruising I do and if I went for a different kind of cruising, for instance a circumnavigation or cruising in extreme latitudes visiting lonely and badly charted places, I would not chose a different boat, but two different boats.

The big difference between you and me is that you think that there is an ideal cruising boat for all while I know that the boat that I prefer is just that, the boat that I prefer and that would not be suited to others that have not the same preferences.

Regarding cruising I give an equal value to voyage, to discover different, nice places and the pleasure of sailing and I like to sail fast. But even for people that has the same tastes the choice of boat can be quite different, from trimarans to catamarans to fast monohulls and between them to the ones more suited to upwind or downwind sailing. Even regarding the small number that prefers a performance cruiser the choice is huge. I know that you call the Catalina 40 a performance cruiser and to performance cruisers racing boats, but that is only a question of opinion:D.

Regarding your question, obviously only the ones that enjoy the pleasure of sailing fast and don't mind to live in spartan way would chose a race boat for cruising. Race boats have the advantage of not being expensive when they are not already competitive. If they are offshore solo racing boats they will not only be very seaworthy, with a big stability, as relatively easy to sail, even on autopilot.

I know of some that are doing that (and certainly there are much more) two, on class 40 that are circumnavigating, one with the complete family with two small kids and also two friends that are also circumnavigating in an old Mini class racer (22ft). They are now on the Pacific after having crossed the Atlantic and they seem quite happy with the boat.

But I guess that is not what you are talking about:D. I guess that you don't call racers just to racing boats but to any boat that is a bit faster than a Catalina 40:D

Regarding those, there are plenty voyaging, some a lot faster than a Catalina could ever voyage (and that is necessarily good, just different). Among those there is a nice couple that I had been following in the interesting sailboat thread, that sail a Fox 10.20, a light 33ft boat with a lifting keel. The boat was new when they started, they finished themselves the interior and the boat is quite nice. Here you have the dimensions and the boat on the links:

LE FOX 10,20 - CAPADO creative boat

CAPADO creative boat

Basically a 3800kg boat with 10.20m of length and 3,60m of beam and a variable draft from 2.40m to 1.30m.

Here they are:



Yes, I know that some think that only a big modern light boat has the carrying capacity in provisions, water and need stuff to voyage...and if by miracle all this stuff is put aboard a small boat the boat will be too heavy and will not sail decently...well, did I mention that they are circumnavigating?

And almost finishing and not one of those non stop circumnavigations or fast circumnavigations without having time to see the world. No, they stop and take some time in each nice place, it is only in the water that they are fast, for a small boat. From South Africa to Brazil the average was over 8K. Charged and all;)

and they have just the boat they want, it was designed by a friend that happens to be a NA, taking all their requirements and tastes in the process.

FoX Technology - Yacht Design and Engineering

That would not be the boat I would have chose for that, I would have preferred a bigger boat, I guess that a Pogo 12.50 would be alright, and I bet that you, of course would choose a Catalina:D, but that is not the point. The point is that little boat is the perfect boat for those two to circumnavigate and therefore it is a perfect cruising boat, at least to them.

Regards

Paulo
 
#21 ·
What were we talking about again? Race boat suitability for cruising? Who qualifies as a cruiser? What is cruising? Let’s see if I can contribute without this thread totally falling off the rails.

Back in my younger days I raced on an Aerodyne 38. Loved it. Fastest I ever sailed was on that boat. Totally “grins and giggles” was that boat. Designed under the open class concept, she was the opposite of narrow. She was designed to surf under an A-kite. I lusted after her performance and at the time, I entertained the idea of “gentrifying” one and cruising it with MrsB. A dozen years later one that was gentrified did come up on the market. It had a furling boom and a bow extension for an anchor roller amongst other mods. Despite all the cruising mods, it looked like it was a beast to sail now that the Mrs and I are a bit older. They never completely solved the tankage issues which were now equal to my C34’s capacities. The interior was beautiful, but as Dad said, lacking a lot of storage space – too small for a year in Mexico IMHO. Needless to say we passed on that one. Lately, I been racing classic plastic, namely the venerable Cal 40. MrsB had seen a nice example of one tricked out for cruising (albeit in a narrower hull). The downside of classic plastic is the need to throw major coin at a “good value” boat to bring it up to what we expect out of our boats (we passed on this idea too.) There is a lot to be said about “dancing with the girl you bring to the party”. We are committed to our current boat for our cruise to Mexico in the coming years.

Now Cruising Dad, exactly how much cruising stuff are you carrying around? Back when we were campaigning our boat, we kept pretty close track of the poundage we carried on board and I worried that “cruising” is going to add a lot of weight and kill a lot of performance.
 
#22 ·
Racers which slowed down while tacking were said to have "Excess directional stability." On an offshore cruising boat, there is no such thing as "Excess directional stability" the more the better. If a piece of gear on a racing boat doesnt break from time to time, it is deemed to be "Overbuilt." Cruising boat and racing boat priorities are exactly opposites , in these, and many more ways
 
#23 ·
Ahhh.... finally the discussion is getting fun.

Ok, let's talk about what I carry on my boat. I will try and get as many things as I can. I am sure to leave some stuff out. Some of my stuff is kid oriented. No way around that and I accept all criticism from it as valid from those who will not take guests or kids. However, let me share some of these things, you decide what you would or wouldn't want, then lets talk about the space it takes up.

<The Settees>

Tools:

I won't bother listing them all, though I have them all listed out for my book. Every (Every!) tool on my list has been used. If it doesn't get used it gets off. In fact, I have bought some tools that double over - like the quick wrenches that accept multiple sizes or converters to reduce the sockets I have to carry. All in all, even after all my pruning, I could only get my tools down to a 24x18x50. That is basically 3/4 of the size of a settee on a typical sized 40 foot boat.

Food:

The bilge takes up most of our food. It is filled with bottled water (and distilled... important for those with wets), can food, flour, rice, sugar, a pressure cooker, a cast iron skillet, dog food, a vacuseal and extra bags. This takes up a comparable size of our settee on the starboard side. We have some room left over except when we fully provision. Everything in there gets used and are essential for cruising for us.

Spare parts:

I carry an extra water pump, extra bilge pump, general diaphragm pump, a spare oil filter, a spare secondary fuel filter, two spare racor filters, a spare belt, a variety of screws and bolts of different sizes, new plugs and impeller for OB, impellers for Gen and Main, strainer and spare baskets. There are some other odds and ends I am sure I missed. THis takes up over a 30x30x30 area.

Detergents and oil:

We carry extra dish soap, boat soap, main oil, gear case oil, and a variety of other basic chemicals that are constantly used. This takes up over a 30x30x30 area.

Galley items:

Zip lock baggies, foil, saran wrap, trash bags, and cleansers under the sink. THat takes up a 12x30x30 area. On either side of the stove are 8 settings of plates and bowls, two skillets, a toaster, and a set of nesting cookware (pots), a collapsible strainer, two silicon collapsible mixing bowls, a container for cereal, a pitcher, a platter, and a set of disposable food containers (which we don't dispose of as we use for leftovers). THat takes up a 59x12x16 area.

In the china cabinet, we keep powdered gartorade and powdered Koolaid and a few cook books. We also keep two china wine glasses, four plastic goblets, two small crystal glasses, four coffee mugs, and six stackable plastic glasses. This takes up a 28x24x12 area. Above this on a 28x12x10 area we keep tortillas and bread.

Our dry storage is 28x18x30. It is filled food, ranging from cereal, lots of pastas, oats, our spare cooking oils, etc.

Our microwave takes up 19x18x30.

Beside the microwave, in two drawers are a 10 place setting of spoons, knives, and forks, including two large serving spoons, spatulas, thongs, and various items used in the galley for cooking. I can be more specific, but I doubt anyone would cut any of these items. This takes up 10x16x17.

Trash can is 13g, and takes up 10x12x20 in the cabinet.

Sink is a double sink, 13x24x9.

Oven and stove are three burner. It is 24x24x26.

Over the sink is the spice rack. It is 28x20x14. It also holds olive oils, spare spices, and 6 cup coffee maker.

Nav Station:

Nav station is 34x36x42. it holds a variety of maps and cruising guides, the electrical panel, secondary chartplotter, secondary repeater, VHF, Water/fuel/waste readouts, radio, Genset panel, battery charger/inverter panel, pencils and paper and other small office type things. THis nav station is independent of the salon settees, and has its own seat. Inside it also has the battery charger/inverter.

Salon:

We have four cabinets in our salon, each approximately 22x11x24. THey are stuffed with the following: paper towels (our nemesis, incidentally), napkins and Kleenex, large cruising guides like Explorer charts for the Bahamas, cameras, spot light, clip on fan. One cabinet is filled with the Play Station and WII for the kids. THe other is filled with movies and games of all types (board games, card games, etc).

Between the cabinets are decorations like plastic flowers. We also keep our books there, though these are few now, thanks to the Kindles.

The TV is wall mount and does not take up any living space.

The entire rest of the salon is taken up with tankage, including holding and diesel.

Heads:

We have two heads. The forward head is the kids head, but we also use it for storage. It is 40x37x76. It holds most of our medical supplies, emergency kits, spare toilet paper and head chemicals, bathroom cleansers, spare cosmetics, two tv trays mounted the wall.

The aft head has a separate shower. All of us shower there. Including the shower, it is 36x64x75.

State Rooms:

We have two staterooms. THe kids is the V berth. It measure at 86x77x108, but remember half of that disappears in the V. It holds all of their clothes (not much clothes, honestly, as we are in the south, maybe a weeks worth of changes), their books and school supplies, and toys. It does have a small seat in it for them to sit at.

Our stateroom is large. It is 12'x11'x78". Remember that part of that is eaten up with the cockpit floor, but it has a queen berth and LOTS of storage. We use one of the cabinets as a dirty clothes cabinet, one cabinet to store various files and safety gear (ditch bag stuff), clothes, my guitar and a small keyboard, a fan, and a small-flat radio. It has two settees in it which store foul weather gear. We use part of the space to secure our computers when under way.

Outside:

Outside we have various items which take up real estate. They are as follows:

6 Person Offshore Liferaft.
1- Dive Tank.
1- 20 lb grill tank.
1- foldable bike.
1 foldable cart.
2 - kayaks which are only mounted when underway on the lifelines.
2- spare 5 g diesel cans
2 - spare 5g gas cans.
2 - spare 5 g water cans.

10'2" tender hangs on davits.

6- Kyocera 130W panels. They have their own, independent arch.

Seat Cushions.

A world-class-seasoned grill.

Each lazarette contains:

Snorkel gear for 4.
1 - BC and Regulator (and soon to be a spear gun and HI Sling)
2 wet suits
Covers for boat when at anchor for shading
A/C Compressor
Diesel Generator
Life Jackets
Extra Dock lines and Jack Lines and harnesses.
2.5G Wet Dry Vac.
AB Fridge Compressor
2 - 10lb Propane tanks for galley.

DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I am sure to have missed a few odds and ends here. It was not intentionally. But that is everything in my boat within reason. So lets now start talking about what YOU would cut. If reasonable, we can start removing these items and calculating the savings in space and potential weight.

I have already divulged that some stuff I carry is kid related. No getting around that. I understand that some of that could be used for other things for those that do not have kids. But what is important to see here is that the VAST majority of this space is things that every one of you would likely take too if cruising. The space killers are not kid related, in general, and shared as boat items.

Also, when you start looking at all these things, now start thinking about where you put these on a J122... a First, or many other boats of similar design. Assuming they have not used a shrink-ray, the space these items take up is the space they take up. No negotiation there. So, where do you put it? I have pulled the boards on these boats, and I am telling you it doesn't fit! So what you do is you start shoving it into the V berth, the quarter berth. You stick it in crannies and crevices, many of these items well above waterline which should not be and screws up the balance of the boat. Not to mention, what did the weight of these items do to this boat? The same boat that was designed at a low displacement is now over-weighted and what effect has that had on its stability and speed?

I am not saying you cannot MAKE these boats work. I am making the argument that it will come at a considerable tradeoff, and the very reason you bought that boat might be compromised.

I am NO minimalist. Not at all. But I am not over the edge either, IMHO. Thre are pleasure things like the guitar and keyboard and dive gear that could be cut easily. But they are also all used and serve a purpose on this boat. What do you cut? Take a look around. These are REAL measurements, on a boat often called a dockaminium, a fat cruiser, extravagant, and all the other acronyms I get thrown toward me. When I go on other peoples boats that are cruising, I feel like I am Spartan, so now you see where I am coming from.

Brian
 
#24 · (Edited)
..
Also, when you start looking at all these things, now start thinking about where you put these on a J122... a First, or many other boats of similar design. Assuming they have not used a shrink-ray, the space these items take up is the space they take up. No negotiation there. So, where do you put it? I have pulled the boards on these boats, and I am telling you it doesn't fit! So what you do is you start shoving it into the V berth, the quarter berth. You stick it in crannies and crevices, many of these items well above waterline which should not be and screws up the balance of the boat. Not to mention, what did the weight of these items do to this boat? The same boat that was designed at a low displacement is now over-weighted and what effect has that had on its stability and speed?

I am not saying you cannot MAKE these boats work. I am making the argument that it will come at a considerable tradeoff, and the very reason you bought that boat might be compromised.

I am NO minimalist. Not at all. But I am not over the edge either, IMHO. Thre are pleasure things like the guitar and keyboard and dive gear that could be cut easily. But they are also all used and serve a purpose on this boat. What do you cut? Take a look around. These are REAL measurements, on a boat often called a dockaminium, a fat cruiser, extravagant, and all the other acronyms I get thrown toward me. When I go on other peoples boats that are cruising, I feel like I am Spartan, so now you see where I am coming from.

Brian
Many years of experience looking at all kind of sailing boats, specially between 39 and 45ft boats, and for looking I mean actually being inside the boats with my wife taking a special care in what regards storage space I can tell you that typical main mass production like yours are normally more "fat" (to use my daughter terminology), than the typical performance cruiser, like the J122 or an Arcona 41. For having the same space you just have to bought the next size in what regards boat size. You will have a bigger saloon but probably the same storage space.

However some modern cruising boats that are faster than the typical fat cruiser manage to have the same storage space, or even more since they are designed with voyage in mind. that does not mean you like them, but we are only talking about storage and speed. It has also other advantages in what regards blueawater sailing namely a cuter rig, with two front sails on furlers plus alight removable furler for the asymmetric spinnaker. The boat comes standard has a twin keel and can be beached for cleaning the hull or repairs.

I am talking about the 2013 European family cruiser, the RM 1260:



RM 1260: Flinker Knickspanter im Exklusiv-Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Regards

Paulo
 
#28 · (Edited)
I was going to write a point-by-point response to the long list you posted. But after having spend forty minutes responding point by point, I realised I was only about a third through your post.

Instead I'll do this short:

I'm a minimalist. Even at home I don't have many things. I have good things, but not many. Reading your list, it seems you're carrying everything that can possibly fit somewhere on the boat. Obviously, if you consider everything a necessity, you will have a hard time carrying less.

It seems, that not only are you carrying everything and then some, but that you're not considering lightweight options for each items. For instance tools - A lot of my tools are (reasonably lightweight) motorcycle tools.

I will never carry anything cast iron, nor will I want a micro wave. It's a sailboat, and besides the space and weight it takes up, the micro wave uses a lot of power.

As for the generator. If I was to carry a generator, it would be in lieu of the diesel engine. In other words, I would carry a generator only if I could get rid of the engine, and I mean that if at all possible, I'd get an electric engine.

Speaking of which: Batteries! I already have LiFePo4 batteries. I will never go back to lead-acid, agm or whatever. Not only are the LiFePo4 batteries lighter for a given Ah rating, but they have many more useable amps than similarly rated old-tech batteries. And, since things needs to be charged: They are charged much faster, not least because they have next-to-no loss.

I haven't gone through the entire post as you can see, but you can see that even those few "alterations" play together to make a much smaller and lighter system without any real sacrifices (unless you actually depend on a microwave).
 
#30 ·
I'm a minimalist. Even at home I don't have many things. I have good things, but not many. Reading your list, it seems you're carrying everything that can possibly fit somewhere on the boat. Obviously, if you consider everything a necessity, you will have a hard time carrying less.
What do you consider a minimalist? I hear that term thrown out a lot, generally by Americans (which I dont think you are) who think a minimalist is someone without a TV or microwave. I have never met a true minimalist as a cruiser, but have met a two or three in my previous life as a backpacker. Here is a minimalist to me:

They carried everything they own in a backpack. They caught rainwater or drank out of the stream. They fished for food, generally supplemented by what they could find on the trail. No radio. No electronics. Little to no money. They cook on a campfire and start the fire with flint and steel (a long lost art... though we had to do it many times too). The only modern part of them was their backpacks, tents, and hiking boots... all well worn. They disappeared in the wilderness for weeks at a time. Nice enough people, but not for me. That is a minimalist to me. If you are putting batteries in your boat, I personally would not consider you a minimalist. And the batteries you put in are very new technology, again not what I would see a minimalist ever doing.

The label is not important to me, and if you want to call yourself a minimalist or anyone else does, they are welcome to. Makes me no difference. Just my opinion.

It seems, that not only are you carrying everything and then some, but that you're not considering lightweight options for each items. For instance tools - A lot of my tools are (reasonably lightweight) motorcycle tools.
I find that comment pretty typical of someone who has not spent a lot of time cruising. It is one of those things that sounds good in theory, but in reality and practicality does not work.

The tools are what the tools are. Again: every tool has been used on this boat. The weight saved by using the Motorcycle type wrenches may be lost the first time you break one. Not to mention, we are splitting hairs on the small amount of weight saved with the few tools that can be purchased lightweight. I prefer solid, well made tools that will take a beating. If you are land-side, and your wrench breaks, no big deal. Go to the store and buy another. If you are at sea or a secluded anchorage and it breaks, you are screwed... just as screwed as if you didn't bring one in the first place. Modern sailboats, especially American made boats, are filled with a variety of different sizes and bolts and screws. A sailboat by its very nature is 80% made up of things bought from vendors. You will have to carry a full set of metric and american. You will have to have a variety of bits. You will have to carry both metric and american alan wrenches. A drill. A jig saw. Hole saws. Hack saw. A large variety of plumbing and electrical supplies. Can you get away without it? Certainly... until the first time something breaks. Better hope its not a critical system if you don't have the tool for it. Nothing pisses me off worse than hearing some cruiser complaining about a broken waterpump - not knowing where it is, not having a spare, and not having the tools to fix it. Those people are best left back at the yacht club where fixes are a phone call away. As an old Boy Scout, I say, "Be Prepared."

I will never carry anything cast iron, nor will I want a micro wave. It's a sailboat, and besides the space and weight it takes up, the micro wave uses a lot of power.
Another common misconception I see, generally from those that have not spent a lot of time cruising or away from the marinas. There are several modern items that have really changed sailing. The microwave is one of them. My microwave pulls 80 amps/h. Sounds like a lot, but it is not. Why? Because it only is run for minutes at a time. That comes out to 1.33 amps/minute. In three minutes, I can cook two cans of canned peas. In two minutes, I can heat up an entire can of soup. In one minute, I can cook fish fillets, which come out surprisingly awesome in the microwave - both juicy and tender. Those same items take considerably longer on the stove, and the fish for example, cooked in the oven, will use a LOT of gas and really heat up the cabin.

Microwaves can be run from an inverter - they do not require a generator. Their power use is minimal. They are quite light. Their size is small and they make a great place to put things in when at sea because the door can be easily closed and has a positive lock. And most of all, and maybe most importantly, they are readily available everywhere and are very cheap to obtain. Walmart sells them for $35. Your stove can easily run over a grand. Your stove uses propane or alcohol.

Now, as a cruiser, let me tell you what IS a real PITA to get: Propane. This often involves a long trek to some far off propane dealer to get it filled or exchanged... if available at all (not too many propane dealers in secluded anchorages). You can get diesel and gas on the water (to make electricity). No prob. A decent solar system will easily keep up for any loss of electricity the miserly microwave uses. But propane is a RIGHT PITA to get and we covet it, as do all cruisers I know.

As for the generator. If I was to carry a generator, it would be in lieu of the diesel engine. In other words, I would carry a generator only if I could get rid of the engine, and I mean that if at all possible, I'd get an electric engine.
Is this on your "canoe" boat? Is this something you would do or you have done? Not sure where you would put a generator on that boat anyways. However, the theory behind not having an engine and the reality I think are two different things. WHen a storm is bearing down on you, it sure is nice to have an engine as a calm often proceeds the storm. When going down the ICW with the Sportfish running you over and cutting you off, it sure is nice to have a engine. When trying to make against the current into a tight channel with breakers and shoals around you, it sure is nice to have an engine. When coming into a crowded marina where currents and winds are not favorable, it sure is nice to have an engine. I can think of a thousand reasons to have an engine, but cannot think of a single reason not to have one. An engine can make electricity, but I certainly do not see that as its key purpose. I believe an engine makes up not only a valuable asset on a cruising boat, but it also is a critical piece of safety gear.

You better research those electric drives pretty good, especially if you are worried about weight. I thought I heard even Lagoon dumped them? This is hearsay, but I was told a couple with a 420 was spending a LOT of money to have their electric drives ripped out or considering it. They were at one of our previous marinas. They HATE them.

When cruising, I believe that tried and true and dependable is more important that new and fashionable. Let the guys that don't leave the marinas horse around with the new technology. My life, and that of my family's, depends on my boat and its proper functioning. That is the mindset of a cruiser.

Speaking of which: Batteries! I already have LiFePo4 batteries. I will never go back to lead-acid, agm or whatever. Not only are the LiFePo4 batteries lighter for a given Ah rating, but they have many more useable amps than similarly rated old-tech batteries. And, since things needs to be charged: They are charged much faster, not least because they have next-to-no loss.
Lead acid batteries are tried, true, and inexpensive. More importantly, they are readily available anywhere. It baffles me why anyone would put a battery in their cruising boat that is not only incredibly expensive, but its availability in most areas is zilch. I paid $135 for my last 4d wet cell. When it goes out, I can probably replace it at any decent port, and if near a major port in the US, probably for the same $135. I plan for failure and how to work around it. Inability to replace systems, or rare and complicated systems without a working knowledge of them, is like playing with fire to me (as a cruiser).

Brian
 
#25 ·
Here are two simple observations

For me the generator is not necessary- save 500-600 lbs. at least

For me the second head is not necessary and you could get all that as increased storage space.
 
#42 ·
Dave,

Agree on both accounts, with a couple of stipulations.

I don;t think the generator is 5-600 lbs. I will have to look that up, but I think it is around 250. Remember, mine is only a MV 3.5 . I just measured the dimensions at: 18x14.5x18. That's basically the size of a carry-on suitcase! However, they are rediculously expensive. I think this one, installed in 2006, was $15,000. I understand they are more than that now.

Of the things I have and listed, like you Dave, the Generator would have been one of the first to go if I had to choose. However, I suspect it would be a short divorce. Before long, I think I would end up seeing a Honda 2000 on my stern!

We make roughly 300ah/day. THat is well more than we use. But it only takes one day or two of clouds in the winter before we are hurting... and that is with 840ah batt banks! Without hot water, we end up running a pretty solid 180 ah/day. With all the kids on the computers and printer (my kids homeschool, but have to use computers), we can exceed that number.

I will be able to give a much more accurate pic of AH used in about 6 weeks. Kids will be out of school and hot water will be less of an issue. Of course, then the water usage goes up, but that is another discussion.

On the second head: Yes. We agree. Or, you could use it for straight storage as many people do (sail locker, wet locker, etc). I have no choice. THis was one of the stipulations my wife wanted for kids (she doesn't want them using her head). I got no problem with that, but I agree with you.

Brian
 
#26 ·
Say it isn’t so, Cruising Dad! You mean I’m committed (condemned?) to all that stuff and more when we go cruising? I’m thinking of taking a grinder to my tools right now! Why have a generator and no water maker? We see the lack of water a bigger concern and power secondary (except for the amps needed to make water). I actually spent a week as a guest on a friend’s J122 down in Mexico not too long ago. Trust me, it’s a little like camping with the kids as all the stuff normally in the aft state room (aka the “garage”) has to go somewhere and that somewhere is the main saloon. The J is a pretty boat and fun to sail on San Francisco Bay but is a little like a gypsy encampment after nearly a year of cruising. If you really want storage, you need to go way beyond a Catalina and into something like a Taswell. I happened to talk to Jeff Johnstone last weekend and surprise! They are thinking about bringing out more cruising designs as they see their market moving away from the “cruiser-racer” concept. Paulo, what do you think of the Jeanneau 409? Saw one at the show that sort of spoke to us. Was not impressed with the Bavaria. Reminded me of a Catalina but with European pricing. Made me like my boat even more.
 
#27 · (Edited)
... Paulo, what do you think of the Jeanneau 409? Saw one at the show that sort of spoke to us. Was not impressed with the Bavaria. Reminded me of a Catalina but with European pricing. Made me like my boat even more.
I had the luck of having a talk with Eric Stomberg about the boat. Eric belongs to Jeanneau america and was very influential on the design of that boat. He is the one that played the "owner" part with Philippe Briand , the NA and the boat was made accordingly with what he thought it would be the right 40ft cruising.

I believe that much of the success of that boat is due to him. He is also a sailor and at the time (the first boats were being delivered), he didn't miss a delivery to have the opportunity to test the boat. He give me a lot of insight about the boat sailing qualities and I felt that he was a honest straightforward and very nice guy.

I find the interior design very agreeable specially on the 2 cabin model. And I like the boat that even on the 3 cabin has a decent storage. Personally that would be the boat that I would chose among all mass production 40fts, main market. But as I said that is personal, there are also other fine boats on that class.

I like more the interior and also the type of hull, more narrow than the others and with one of the best B/D ratios (taking into consideration draft and type of keel). They have also a performance package that will make it even faster and it is the only boat of that class that uses infusion. That makes is as strong as the competition and substantially lighter, with a better performance.

The only one that comes close is the Hanse 415, also a good design but I don't like the interior and I prefer the concept of lighter with less sail then heavier with more sail.

The Hanse is also maximized for downwind sailing while the Jeanneau has in my opinion a better overall balance in what regards performance: I sail upwind (many cruisers don't, they use the engine) and I like boats with a good upwind performance, and the jeanneau has a good one for a main market cruiser.

They even can run a German main-sheet system if you want to give you full control of the main at the wheel. The only thing I don't like is the two lonely winches on the cockpit and the impossibility of having another two. That is alright with the self taking jib but with a genoa or a geenaker two more would come handy. Anyway, only two winches in the cockpit is the rule to all in that class, with the exception of the Bavaria that is the only one that offer 4 winches in the cockpit as an option.

I agree with you about the Bavaria. I don't like the interior, even if functional and the boat looks left much to be desired. Curiously it is a good hull. They use the boat in a lighter version for Match racing in Germany and it sails much better than what I thought possible. Well, it is a Farr design;)



They are making a new boat (with the same hull?) along the lines of the 56 and 33 and I expect that the improvements that the 56 shows on overall design and interior design quality would show also on the new 40.

Regards

Paulo
 
#29 ·
Um Brian........you do not need a 40' boat for all that stuff, try maybe 40METERS! so you are about 100M short on boat, get a longer bigger boat, and you can carry all that sheet and then a bit more, and still have reasonable performance.....

THEN, you can get one of the lifting keel thingymabobs, that will allow you into those shallow draft harbors, along with dropping it off shore some so you have some performance!

THere you have whatyou need to do to solve ALL you problems! just get one of them metric style boats, all is solved!

Marty
 
#35 ·
I think Petercheck pretty much nails it for long term cruising boats (post #3) .... immersion factor, or how much a heavily loaded boat sinks into the water when filled to capacity with cruising stores. Purpose built long distance cruisers/passagemakers typically have more 'stowage capacity' and when fully loaded with stores wont be wallowing against a deeply submerged waterline.
Also for long distances, a boat that 'snaps' on every wave can become quite tiring in comparison to a more 'sea-kindly' boat ... theres a big diff. between a 'slow roller' and a 'snappy' boat when it comes to 'roll period'.

Also too structural fatigue can be a concern for long distance/long term, a heavier 'beefed up' boat will typically have a higher inbuilt 'structural factor of safety' which prolongs the time frame of 'endurance limit' in total stress cycles (rigging and hull). Generally, a 'flimsy' is certainly going to come apart faster and become 'structurally tired' sooner than a 'crab crusher', although composite structural design keeps getting better and better during this current 'evolution'.

"Sea-kindliness" is probably more important than ability to 'quickly accelerate' when youre 'cruising' ... especially if you havent worn a wristwatch for many years!!!! A crab crusher with a 'rounded power-bow shape' will 'blast its way' through the real steep stuff due to is momentum and latent inertia, while the 'flimsy' will tend to pound and pound (and possibly get stopped) and pound again until your dental fillings loosen and fall out.
 
#37 ·
Sails:
An interesting point and I would suggest a big racer/cruiser divide. The low end of either might be one main and one headsail, a 130-150. But while the serious racer may sort through 14 sails to load the day's inventory...a cruiser has to carry all the sails they own, and build inventory a bit more parsimoniously.

One main, storm sail, maybe 3-4 headsails if they're seriously considering light air and storms? What does who consider "proper" for the cruising sail inventory, as opposed to racing?
 
#39 ·
I think many of the cruisers, with their roller furlers and inmasts, have gotten away from carrying any extra sails. I am one of them. Does not mean I think I should.

I have often considered investing in a trysail. I already have the track for it. I actually have a heavy made sail for a much smaller boat in storage in Washington. I wonder how that would work on my boat??? Anyways, I am as guilty as the crowd and admit it. Does not mean I don't agree with Jon, which I do.

Another sail I would like is a cruising chute. I had one on my last boat and loved it. I loved just flying it. Unfortunately, I have had my boat dollars going elsewhere. And in all honesty, and I will ask Jon what he thinks too, I just don't see many cruisers using spis. He is right about motoring a lot too. It shocked me how much we end up motoring.

I will say one thing though (about motoring): We try to avoid sailing when we will get bounced around too much. Sometimes you can avoid that and have a better voyage (not a better sail) by motoring. Also, where before we might just sail, it is not unusual for us to motorsail to make better time. I think that argument for a "Racer" could be that they do not have to do that as much and their boats will point better, making for a better VMG. I also think, in theory, they will be able to sail and make better speed in winds where many cruisers will have to sail.

One of my consistent arguments though, and it may be a Bob Perry question, is when you load up a racer-cruiser with cruising stuff, how have you affected the stability of that boat? THe performance? The RM? Wouldn't a race boat, given its nature of design and the lack of storage, be forced to put things higher thus decreasing its RM for instance, versus a HD cruiser might keep it low and secured? Because the percentage increase of displacment would be much higher on a racer-cruiser versus a HD cruiser, wouldnt the effects of loading it down really alter it more than a HD Cruiser?

I really don't know. It is a question. But it seems logical to me that it would.

Brian
 
#41 ·
Remember the old television show, “The Naked City”? Each episode would start out “There are eight million stories in the Naked City, this is one of them?” There must be at least that many definitions of the word “cruising”. We all have different concepts of the word and definitely different plans when we all “head out and turn left at the Gate” (the San Francisco vernacular for cruising). It would be most helpful if people would put their boat and location in the signature line so I can figure out if the responder is like me or not. When people don’t put anything in their signature or Bio, I tend to think of them as “keyboard captains” and heavily discount what they say.

My future cruising grounds will be the west coast of Mexico and the SOC where you can be a week or more away from reliable marine repair. I’ve been 500 miles offshore on the way to Hawaii on a boat that started to lose its steering gear and mid-Atlantic on a boat with generator problems. That, and a career in Aerospace, makes me sensitive to the repair/DC aspect. After all isn’t the definition of cruising “fixing your boat in exotic locations”?

Dad, interesting take on the Jeanneau. Usually that vitriol is reserved for Catalina’s. Unlike what I’m assuming is most people on this thread, I’m not independently wealthy so I do look for an affordable price point. After-all, I’m on my third Catalina. What attracted me to the 409 was its similarity to my C34 in terms of its layout (two stateroom, single aft head). I did not like the lack of a coaming aft of the steering wheels (almost lost a cushion overboard at a cocktail party). The single set of primaries and that mainsheet set up was a turn-off too. But all boats in my price range tend to be compromises. Can you give me an objective comparison with your 400? Sail California recently merged (acquired?) Cruising Yachts, so now besides their usual “Js”, they now are brokering Jeanneau. The line is so new to them that they even asked me if I wanted to test drive the 56, 409, and 389 out on the Bay with them. What kind of deal can I get from your local Florida man? (I am friends with my local brokerage owner).
 
#45 ·
Remember the old television show, "The Naked City"? Each episode would start out "There are eight million stories in the Naked City, this is one of them?" There must be at least that many definitions of the word "cruising". We all have different concepts of the word and definitely different plans when we all "head out and turn left at the Gate" (the San Francisco vernacular for cruising). It would be most helpful if people would put their boat and location in the signature line so I can figure out if the responder is like me or not. When people don't put anything in their signature or Bio, I tend to think of them as "keyboard captains" and heavily discount what they say.

My future cruising grounds will be the west coast of Mexico and the SOC where you can be a week or more away from reliable marine repair. I've been 500 miles offshore on the way to Hawaii on a boat that started to lose its steering gear and mid-Atlantic on a boat with generator problems. That, and a career in Aerospace, makes me sensitive to the repair/DC aspect. After all isn't the definition of cruising "fixing your boat in exotic locations"?

Dad, interesting take on the Jeanneau. Usually that vitriol is reserved for Catalina's. Unlike what I'm assuming is most people on this thread, I'm not independently wealthy so I do look for an affordable price point. After-all, I'm on my third Catalina. What attracted me to the 409 was its similarity to my C34 in terms of its layout (two stateroom, single aft head). I did not like the lack of a coaming aft of the steering wheels (almost lost a cushion overboard at a cocktail party). The single set of primaries and that mainsheet set up was a turn-off too. But all boats in my price range tend to be compromises. Can you give me an objective comparison with your 400? Sail California recently merged (acquired?) Cruising Yachts, so now besides their usual "Js", they now are brokering Jeanneau. The line is so new to them that they even asked me if I wanted to test drive the 56, 409, and 389 out on the Bay with them. What kind of deal can I get from your local Florida man? (I am friends with my local brokerage owner).
I will send you a PM on the brokerage company, etc, as I don't want to have anyone screaming at me. They would know me. I will put the rest here as others will want to chime in.

Hmmm.... I assume your budget is around 300k if you are looking at a 409? I would look into a used Sabre 426 or X, off the top of my head. The new bene seems to be a step up from the XX9 Jeauneaus, but just so you know, a good friend of mine (at the same marina, incidentally), lost her forestay on her maiden voyage on her brand new bene! If you get serious about those boats, I will let you speak with her. She is awesome... pretty gal, loves sailing, relatively young, has her own money, buys her own boats, captains license, singlehands. I wouldn't dare let her post on Sailnet in the Hersailnet Forum!! I couldn't keep up with all the posts! She's a rarity in this world. Her forestay chaffed through at the top and though I think the rigging seems a bit more heavy than the xx9, it is not vastly so. She has had a lot of problems, but in fairness, the factory rep came down and they have taken care of her. Another boat that people consider over the C400 is the Bene 423. My issue with that boat is that the stern sits in the water right at the HD joint, and they love collect barnacles there as it is impossible to paint. Also, I think every single 423 I have ever seen lists to starboard. Not much, but enough that it would irritate me.

You know a boat I do like and lost racing against was a Bene 40. The hull looks very similar to the C400... scarily so. To be fair to me, I was filled to the rim with crusiing stuff and he was fresh off the truck (now I am making excuses... I might be a racer yet!!). It might be a cheaper option than a new Bene. Nice sailing boat. My only issue with the Benes is I really do not like the hull-deck joints for reasons explained above.

If you can spend over 300, I would really be looking hard at a newer Sabre, a C445, or a newer X. I keep talking up the X's. I have not sailed them or against them. But they look sweet and I bet they are fast. I KNOW the Sabres are, for the most part. You will have to be comfortable with a cored hull though, which unless I am mistaken, all Sabres have. Others can chime in there. I have mixed feelings on a cored hull for cruising.

We had very dear friends that lived in the Sea of Cortez on their boat for five years. They Loved it George. They loved the people. One word of warning, which you may already know, is that you will have to get used to hot weather. Ventilation will be critical. THat often means, with all due respect to my HD lovers, a boat with a lot of hatches (a production boat). I would avoid anything with teak decks and would really focus my search on a boat where the V is the master. That rules out a C400. A C42 would fit the bill. You will have to buy one used. If you want to go that route, let me know as there are things in private I want to discuss too.

If under 200k, I would get a C400. I don't think there is a better boat. Of course, many will disagree with me. They think I am some kind of Catalina lover, which is not entirely true, incidentally. Everything they say about me and grilling is true - guilty as charged.

Regarding the J122 - I understand exactly what you are saying. I know because I have seen it and because I too am a cruiser. That is why we are having this discussion. The J122 is a rocking-cool boat. Man that thing is nimble. But no way I would cruise on it. Just not the right boat for the cruising we do... in my opinion. And in my opinion, it is not the right boat for the cruising most would do. But that is what we are discussing here, I think...

Brian
 
#43 ·
"I will say one thing though (about motoring): We try to avoid sailing when we will get bounced around too much. Sometimes you can avoid that and have a better voyage (not a better sail) by motoring."

Brian, by your definition of cruising (and mine intersects with yours on this point), why would you leave when you are going to get bounced around? Why would you leave when it's necessary to motorsail? And why would you need to "make time?" Personally, I like the idea of waiting for better weather; we're cruising, so what's the rush? My dear wife has a job, so she is bound by her schedule, but I'm not and neither, I presume, is a full time cruiser.
 
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