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Why a racer for cruising discussion...

32K views 237 replies 34 participants last post by  steve77 
#1 ·
We all have different opinions of what makes a good cruising boat. I get that. Believe me, Paulo's idea of what makes a good cruising boat, Jeff_h's, my dad's, and mine are three different animals altogether! I respect all of their opinions, but I have long tried to make a different case.

My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising? I am sure to get the typical response of, "Because we appreciate being able to sail and appreciate sailing over creature comforts." I have heard some variation of that for years. But, for a fulltime cruising boat, do you really gain that much going to a racing boat for cruising?

First, lets define cruising. Cruising, in my opinion (and everyone gets their own), is fulltime, probably no house, everything in storage, I am going-going-going or living on the water for well over a year, and likely many years, if not permanently. I have to tell you that the difference between taking off for a few weeks or even a few months (both of which I have done) while still maintaining a residence is TOTALLY different than selling it all and sailing (which we do now). Why? Because when you sell it all and sail, you don't have the luxury of odd storage, a place to return to when the boat gets cramped, that (un)realistic knowledge in the back of your head that if your boat sinks, you will just have to move back to your house and deal with the insurance company. I think SSCA has a similar definition, which I agree with, but I guess everyone gets their own. What I don't think is cruising is taking off for a few weeks, maybe a few months, where the idiosyncracies of your boat can just be shrugged off until you get back home. That seems like vacationing to me.

Next, lets define racer/performance/HD. My idea of a performance boat is a boat that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions. These are the typical conditions a cruiser will set off in, not necessarily the conditions they will see. Lets say these conditions are 15-20 kts sustained. A boat that cannot reach hull speed at these numbers is what I would define as a HD (heavy displacement cruiser... though I can think of a few more metaphors!). A boat that goes well over hull speed in 15-20, or in less than 15 sustained, I would define as a racer. Again, these are all open to discussion. They are my loose definitions.

Now, I am not in any way suggesting that everyone needs to get a HD Cruiser for cruising (though an argument can be made for them), but why get a racer? The majority of these boats are generally narrow beams, light storage, very light tankage, and deep draft. Many have air draft over 65, cutting off any hope of the ICW, and I can even make a good argument that air and water drafts over ICW limits also cut off safety. The comment will come up as usual, "because we appreciate a performing boat over the creature comforts." Well, if you are cruising, is your boat really still a racer?

For example, my boat used to be a LOT faster than it is now. SHe loved to jump up and go, and now it takes pretty close to 20 to get her at hull speed or thereabouts. I have a LOT of stuff on my boat, and I have two kids. I will admit that without the kids, it would be easier to rearrange this stuff to make it more accommodating for speed. Heck, our cans and food would be cut over half! But does my boat really have that much stuff on it for a cruising boat? Solar? Gotta make power some way. Without solar you are doomed to make power with a generator and subsequently carry more gas and diesel at what can easily add up to more weight. Water jugs. A few diesel jugs. Lots of food. Lots of tools. Lots of spare parts. Life raft. Some books (more minimal now with kindle). Snorkel gear (though I carry dive gear too). Tender. TV. Guitar. Bike. Cart. Minimal documents (now have scanned in most). My boat is heavy. I could cut some stuff, but these all get used and make our boat our home.

So what do you cut? And more importantly, where do you put that stuff that you feel is essential on a race boat? Most of the cruising boats I see, which have lots of storage, still have stuff crammed in every corner and every spare inch. I am not going to say I couldn't get rid of some stuff, but our deal is that if we don't use it much, it is off the boat (spare parts and tools the exception). Lets see, just my tools take up a 30x30x60 area... and that does not even include all the spare parts! Pots and pans of various sizes, including vacuseal bags, flower, sugar, and other necessary items take up the exact same side across from it. Can goods and bottled water fill the bilge. Spare parts in the holds below the waterline. Everything heavy is low, light is high. Most everything on this boat is secured in a locker or behind strong fiddleboards.

So again, what do you cut on a race boat? Can you? Cabinetry is often at a minimum. If you do not cut much, is that boat still a race boat? My argument has long been that when cruising on one of these boats, the stuff that the HD or even performance boats can stowe safely below and in holds, you end up stuffing in every corner, above the waterline, and/or on deck. Whereas we can keep most of our stuff safely secured and below the waterline, you may not or your boat is sooo stuffed down below that you cannot move around. And if you stuff it above deck, is that boat still performing well? Is she still safe for cruising? Because if you put 5000 pounds of stuff on a boat that is 25,000 lbs, then you have altered its displacement by 17%. If you put that same 5000 lbs on a boat that displaces 15000 lbs, you have altered its displacement by 25%... or about 50% more. Not to mention, much of that stuff in my opinion will go above the waterline and on decks whereas other boats can keep it below.

Now, a 40 foot racer as a man cave, single guy, I get that. I don't agree with it, but I get it. Its just you. But can you and a spouse really make that work long term? With kids? And is your boat going to be safer than mine, or a HD cruiser, when you really load it up with what you will need to cruise with? My guess (GUESS) is that you have now really changed that boat and the very properties you came to admire it for are now lost upon your chosen lifestyle. I also guess (GUESS) that in reality, that boat is less safe than the typical HD or performance cruiser which has the ability to properly stowe items.

What are others opinions? Agree? Disagree? Why?

Brian
 
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#100 ·
I guess if the “grownups” like the esteemed Mr. Perry have now shown up does this mean us kids have to go home or can we still play some more? :D Bob, now that you are here, can you “check my math”? I have a couple of formulas that are obviously broken – can you tell me where they are incorrectly written?

MOMENT OF INERTIA (I) = Displacement^1.744/35.5

ROLL PERIOD (T) = 2*PI*(Inertia/(82.43*lwl*(.82*beam)^3))^.5

STABILITY INDEX = T / (beam*.3048)

Yes, boat selection is extremely personal and I am still enthralled with my C34 but I am at a crossroads as I look to retirement and Mexico cruising. Do I make a jump to a bigger platform? If so, do I buy something that the cool kids are all sailing? If I double my expense in the boat, will I double my pleasure? My C34 gives me a whole lot of pleasure right now and it is never boring. I have done a whole lot of racing an on some pretty fast designs so I have a pretty good idea of what is on the far end of the spectrum, it’s the stuff in the middle like the Benies, Jeannies, and yes, the fatty cattys that seem to be too closely grouped together and hence, my corundum.

Not to be a total brown noser Bob, but I raced your Nordic 44 design to a second place in the ’08 Pac Cup. Beating the third place boat by almost 24 hours (and losing first by a “mere” three hours.) It was a fun ride. Based on the experience, tried to talk the Mrs. into the Nordic 40 version but she didn't like the small cockpit and forward head. As they say, different horses for different courses. :eek:
 
#102 ·
... It was a fun ride. Based on the experience, tried to talk the Mrs. into the Nordic 40 version but she didn't like the small cockpit and forward head. As they say, different horses for different courses. :eek:
Then you have a wife...and has it is expected it is an important part of the equation in what regards to chose a cruising boat and it is only far to be that way.

I remember some time ago on the interesting sailboat thread someone that wanted a boat for circumnavigating. His personal choice, if the wife was not coming along was something fast, adapted to solo sailing. If I am remembering correctly he was thinking in something like an Elan 350. We ended up convincing his wife (good for them) and the compromise was a fast big voyage catamaran with a nice interior and lots of interior space:D

Regards

Paulo
 
#101 ·
George:
I don't check math. I design boats. Somebody here with a textbook can check your math.

Glad you enjoyed the Nordic 44. I think that's one of my really good designs. The cockpit for the 44 became the cockpit for the Nordic 40. We used the same tooling. That's why the fanny on the 40 is so broad. Not sure why your wife didn't like it. But doesn't matter she was right anyway. Wives are like that. The 44 is the far better boat.

Best of luck with your boat search.
 
#103 · (Edited)
I get wanting to cruise in something fast. Who doesn't.

The responses to the question here(I have followed the whole thread) seem to be a suggestion that it is all just about 'style' - That some people cruise with more stuff and some with less.

While this is true, it is a simplification. What I don't get is that if your 'cruising' (Your boat is your home not a building and you move it around a fair bit) there is a level of tankage/provisions/spares you just have to have.

Even planing 10+ kts minimalists have to eat and drink, presumably their boats also sometimes require maintenance, and occasionally they like to have fun.

Boats such as Firsts( just an example CD mentioned, not picking on it) would get pretty weighed down/squishy by the time you have met what i believe would be the average/accepted level of tankage/provisioning/spares/safeties IMHO.

Our boat doesn't have a much in the way of toys or mod cons. We are a moderate diplacement 35ft cruising sloop, No Generator, no AC, no watermaker, No microwave(Ok, we are getting one though, purism be damned those things are miracles on passage).

We DO carry 180 Litres of diesel( about 50 Gallons?) and additional Jerrys. Triple that for water. We do wear clothes and eat food. We have a medical kit that takes up an entire locker, cruising guides that fill another, and don't get me started on charts and toilet paper. Occasionally I need to fix stuff so there are tools, and when I am not I have been known to read a book or two. We at times probably nearly equal our water capacity in wine/beer/rum and scotch. :)

When you are living and voyaging fulltime even simple needs such as ours are enough to fill most crevices in a good cruising boat. I question in a boat with less storage/tankage and light displacement how you do satisfactorily get around these simple facts.

Of course yes there a extremes, some guy probably has sailed around the world on a racing machine with 5 gallons of diesel, a pair of shorts and 2 cans of baked beans.
 
#104 ·
call03 - couldn't of said it better. Trick is to have a boat that can carry the load, be comfortable and still be reasonably fast. Also having a boat that can be repaired and serviced easily just about anywhere is another issue not given enough importance by some when thinking about this initially.
 
#105 · (Edited)
What i don't understand is, why does everyone seem to accept the assumption that a more performance oriented boat cannot be loaded up with the same amount of gear and provisions as slower, porkier cruising boats. Performance cruisers aren't kept light because their hull form can't handle the load, they are kept light because lighter is faster. There is no reason you couldn't. Fit out a J120 for serious cruising, and it will still sail better than a loaded down Catalina. At least on the performance boats you aren't wasting cargo capacity on heavy furniture and un neccessary woodwork. I have sailed on a J160 that has all of the extra tankage, generator, and even a dive compressor, and is still blazing fast, and plenty comfortable.
 
#106 ·
Achock:
I have explained this ad nauseum here. But there are still some skeptics. And perhaps they have a valid point. Given the fact that the waterplane area for two 40'er, one a cruiser and one a racer, will be similar, their two pounds per inch immersion factors will be very similar. So, let's say each boat will sink an inch for every 1300 lbs. of gear loaded. Of course the more the boat sinks the more the waterplane increases and the plbs. per inch immers will increase. We all know this, with the exception of the crew of the MERRY LUDDITE.

However, and this is where the slekptis have a point: If your racy 40'er weighs 14,000 lbs and your cruiser buddies 40'er weighs 24,000 lbs. You will have 218.75 cu. ft. of volume below the DWL to stow gear, including tankage while tyou heavier cruiser buddy will have 375 cu. ft. of volume below the DWL. Not quite twice as much volume but colse enough.

What does this mean? It means that you will have a hard time finding places on your race boat to stow all the gear.You heavier buddy has that generoud bilge area where he can stash canned good, wine, gear and spares. With you skinny bilged race boat about the only think you can stow below the sole is pasta, spaghetti, on its side.

Displ means volume and in this example I am only talking about volume bekow the DWL. It makes sense that the cruiser may have fuller ends and maybe more freeboard too so the above the DWL volume is also greater.

The lighter boat will in almost all cases still sail better. But at night, snug in that anchorage when you go to bed on your racer you may be resting your head on a can of beans or a jerry jug full of water.
 
#107 · (Edited)
While that is true in narrow hull racers in performance cruisers with the hull based on open solo racers the huge transoms allows a big storage space. The hulls have normally one cabin on one side and an identical space on the other side has a storage space. That space is a very big one. That is one of the reasons that make them among fast performance boats popular voyage boats for the ones that like to voyage fast.

Other important reason for that choice is the easiness of sailing (regarding other performance cruisers) and the fact that those boats and hulls were designed taking in consideration the possibility of the boats to be sailed on autopilot, even at two figure speeds downwind.
 
#110 · (Edited)
I actually don't disagree with you on this in regards to these modern 'performance cruisers'. They seem to be an evolution in design, albeit an acquired taste. There is certainly though a well funded, more performance orientated breed of cruiser that loves these kind of boats.

I do personally like the Marten 49.

It's darn pretty, fast and there is enough storage/tankage for my needs. It is academic however, they are well beyond my means.

What was in my means when boat shopping were boats such as First 36.7's, and similar style aussie cruiser/racers. I used to race J 24's. My last boat was a IOR 1/4 Tonner and my wife is actually more of a hardcore racing sailor than me. When boat shopping we initially liked the idea of something like a First, but in the end we couldn't see making it work for our intended cruising use. We boat a slower moderate displacement cruising boat.
 
#108 ·
I understand that you have to have the actual physical space to put your stuff, and if your kind of cruising requires you to carry enough canned food and water to be at sea for months, then you should choose your boat accordingly. In many cases I suspect that people fill up whatever size boat they have with stuff! Just like when I had a condo, and moved into a townhouse, I couldn't believe how much space I had for my stuff. A few years later, the townhouse was full. Then came the house! Tons of space! Now, there is no room in the 2 car garage because of all the stuff! I suspect the same principle applies to boats!

Of course if you are taking all your worldly possessions to sea with you, a big heavy tub might be exactly what you need! That certainly isn't what I would want.
 
#113 · (Edited)
if your kind of cruising requires you to carry enough canned food and water to be at sea for months, then you should choose your boat accordingly.
Interestingly our cruising doesn't require us to be at sea for months, yet we find it is necessary to still have a somewhat well stocked boat. Shops are not handy when cruising.(At least where we cruise).

Of course if you are taking all your worldly possessions to sea with you, a big heavy tub might be exactly what you need! That certainly isn't what I would want.
We also don't have a lot of worldy possessions on the boat, honestly just simple normal stuff and what an average sailor, doing average cruising would deem essential on boat.

This stuff adds up more than you would think...
 
#109 · (Edited)
Paulo:
You are being silly. You are introducing radical hull shapes into the discussion. If I can do that I can prove anything. We are not talking about Volvo 60's or Open 40's here.

Sure they are wide. But they are thin. There is little usable volume there. You sure as hell cannot load up the stern with tankage or anything of any weight. You must know that. On a heavy boat you can fit a 100 gallon fuel tank down in the bilge over the keel, keep the wreight amidships and lower the VCG while you are at it.

Try that in the stern of you light and wide race type boat. Ridiculous!

Or maybe, you just want to argue. If you do then I'm going to watch hockey.
 
#112 · (Edited)
Paulo:
You are being silly. You are introducing radical hull shapes into the discussion. If I can do that I can prove anything. We are not talking about Volvo 60's or Open 40's here.

Sure they are wide. But they are thin. There is little usable volume there. You sure as hell can load up the stern with tankage or anything of any weight. You must know that.

Or do you just want to argue. If you do then I'm going to watch hockey.
Are you sure I am the silly one?

One of the boats that has been sold on the last year in bigger numbers as a fast ocean voyage sailboat is the Pogo 12.50. They have a waiting list of more than a year.



And the originally designed by Finot and now redesigned by Marc Lombard Cigales 14 and 16, considered by many the best fast voyage boat.



Among others off course,

Silly? I don't think so;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#111 ·
Bob, the one great thing we all gloss over is also the great determining factor and that is WHAT DOES THE MRS. WANT? My bride is the one who likes host parties and such for the other couples in the anchorage so even in our little C34, being able to sit six in the cockpit for cocktails and four comfortably for dinner is a must. I know, it’s a cross I have to bear, but I do get a lot of sailing out of it. Interesting observation about displacement and volume. Is it safe to assume for every 1,000 of displacement there is 15.6 CF of potential storage? I know that it can’t be an exact number, but it is an interesting way making a comparison between boats. Another thing that keeps me away from the go-fast boats is I discovered much to my chagrin when we were beating off of Cabo Falso in thirty knots of breeze, is my wife absolutely detests running backs! Which opens up a whole another can of worms concerning the desirability of a complicated rig on a cruising boat.
 
#114 · (Edited)
Yeah Paulo:
I do this for a living. I've done it for a living for the last 46 years. I have not interest in argument for argument sake. I have designed every kind of boat from the Baba 30 to the Flying Tiger 30. I know boats. I have done 70ULDB's and 60' ULDB cruising boats. I'll wait for the list of your designs. I have about 7,000 boats on the water that I have designed.

For long range, offshore cruising displacement has it's benefits. If you want to argue that then go ahead but argue to the rest of your audience because I know you are being less than intelligent. I'd say "stupid". Cruisers want tankage, engine space, stowage space, room for personal effects and more tankage. You need displ to give this. This is not a theory. This is not a philosophy. This is reality.

Lets see,,,,,You want me to load extra tankage, say 150 gallons, into the stern of a light and wide racing type hull form? It will not work. It will trim boat by the stern dramatically and hurt performance. Take any designer of that type of boat and suggest he add a 150 gallon tank aft and he'll laugh at you Paulo. Then suggest 200 gallons and the designer will laugh so hard he'll throw up. The suggest a dinghy in davits, a BBQ, a Solar panel array, an outboard. The poor designer of the light boat will die laughing. R.I.P. While he's laying there dead you can suggest a stern anchoring set up with 300' of nylon on a spool mounted on your stern pulpit. I think the body will roll over.

You have this attitude that all good boats have to be your idea of a good boat.
That's total BS. We all have our own way of approaching yachting. There is no reason it has to be reduced to argument or "my way or the highway". I love boats. I love all kinds of boats. I love light boats and I like heavy boats. I just love boats and I appreciate them for what they are as individuals. I am a good enough sailor to get the most out of any boat.

Do it your way and enjoy.
Guys like Wolf can do it their way and enjoy.
Who enjoys more?
I don't give a rat's ass.
Fun is fun.
Happy is happy.
 
#119 · (Edited)
Yeah Paulo:
I do this for a living. I've done it for a living for the last 46 years. I have not interest in argument for argument sake. I have designed every kind of boat from the Baba 30 to the Flying Tiger 30. I know boats. I have done 70ULDB's and 60' ULDB cruising boats. I'll wait for the list of your designs. I have about 7,000 boats on the water that I have designed.
What has that to do?... I mean the boats I have designed. It was not me that have designed those voyage boats. You should ask how many boats Jean Marie Finot or Marc Lombard have designed and the answer would be probably a lot more than you, specially on the last years were they are very successful designers and looked by major boat builders for designing production boats.

That is a stupid argument anyway. They could have designed the boats and they could have not had any success like that very narrow cruiser boat that you designed some years back that could fit in a container.

The success of a design has nothing to do with the one that design it but is measured by the number of boats sold and by how the functions for what the boat was designed are fulfilled and that again can be measured by the interest that the sailors have on that boat and the way it is used.

Both the Cigale and the RM are making boats along those lines, basing the hull in Open sail boats, for 15 or twenty years. The fact that not only the boats are used for the function they were designed but that they are not only kept in production as in the case of the RM increased its production by 2 or 3 times show clearly that they are a success and there are many sailors using those boats and that concept for long range voyaging.

The Pogo cruisers are a more modern and extreme concept in what regards cruising and long range voyage but the fact that they have increased production and even so have a waiting list of an year shows obviously the success of the concept and that many cruisers want that kind of boats has voyage boats and use them like that. There are already many cruising extensively in distant places.

I think some people try to draw a hard line between "racer" and "cruiser". I say, for sake of argument, that no such line can exist. ...

... I want performance first then I'll see what I can do to get the comfort and safety I need. ... I really don't like the attitude, "I'll tell you how to have fun damn it!"

It wasn't so very long ago that the Valiant 40 was considered too radical to be a serious offshore cruising boat.

I can remember John Neale storming into my office and berating me for being so stupid as to design an offshore boat without a full keel. Now John sails a H-R with a spade rudder.
...
I find amusing that you have said that and then contradict it on a subsequent post.

Bob, like in the Vailant many decades go, the success of the boats and the use sailors give to them talk by themselves.

John Neale, many decades ago, called you stupid for designing what was then a light and fast offshore cruising boat that proved late to be a success and you are calling stupid to designers that design modern lighter fast voyage with hulls based on Open beamy boats. I find that very ironic specially because when jonhn Neal said that to you the Vailant had not proved yet as a very successful long range voyager while the RM, the Cigale and the Pogo are already very successful voyage boats.

They are not only used in large numbers has the RM 1260 was chosen by test sailors from many countries of Europe as 2013 European family cruiser and the Pogo 12.50 was chosen last year as European performance cruiser.

Against facts there are no arguments and it is not you saying "I know you are being less than intelligent. I'd say "stupid" that changes that.

This is not a theory, this is reality.

For long range, offshore cruising displacement has it's benefits. .. You need displ to give this. This is not a theory. This is not a philosophy. This is reality.
I bet that it was what John Neale tell you when he called you stupid for designed the Vailant 40 years ago;)

For the sake of argument, this kind of beamy boats based on solo racing boats are not even the type of boat I prefer. That does not make me blind to his advantages, his success among sailors has a fast voyage boat or the quality of the design functionality and adequacy for the propose they were created.

In what regards that, more than mine or any other opinion, the success of this type of boats among sailors speaks for themselves.

Regards

Paulo
 
#116 ·
One of fastest offshore, cruising boats I have come across, and liked is the Saga 43.

This particular one was for sale and the owner had claimed it regularly had done 200nm 24 hour runs. It had good tankage/storage ( well good enough, yes there are boats with more). If I didn't already own a boat I like, and was thinking of heading across oceans soon I would of seriously of come close to buying said boat.

Now what was the name of that guy who designed it?? ;););););)
 
#120 · (Edited)
Paulo- There are many places on the eastern seaboard and elsewhere where watermakers are problematic ( silt,other contaminants), and others airless ( need engine). We intend to cruise the eastern US then Carribean ( may need to buy water) then the world. Being able to choose when and where to buy fuel and water gives freedom, decreases expense and increases the chances of not putting contaminated fluids on our boat. Having 200 gal of water and 200gal of fuel under the center of the bilge gives freedom.Given having all the comforts of a dirt house means the 90% of the time we spend in a particular locale will not mean we rent rooms to just have the comfort of long hot showers or a washer/dryer. Given most of the sites interesting to us are in close proximity to the ocean living on the boat needs to be as comfortable as possible.. Behavior and noise at anchor are important to us. Being totally independent and able to live entirely off the grid for extended times is important as well. Displacment makes that possible. I have no argument with you about the light boats. Nor will I argue they can't be strong,fast and safe. That misses the point. Everyone here are sailors. They all know light is fast.
The Valiant had a ~20y run and still are very desirable boats. I gave serious thought to buying the Valiant 50 still sitting in the yard in Texas. My boat has had a ~13y run with more on order. She is fast but also extremely comfortable. Why are you arguing with Bob? Why can't you see there will always be a demand for boats that sail very well, are comfortable, safe and allow the displacement to live on a boat without making the serious compromizes lack of displacement demands? I understand the fascination with speed. I very much enjoy the passage as well so with a reasonably fast boat spending an extra few hours at sea even for an ocean crossing does not seem a hardship against the losses I face in a light displacement vessel. Why can't you respect that view. If someone drew a new vessel that allowed the features of the Outbound ( tankage not requiring replacement down the road, no keel bolts to fail etc) and was faster I would have bought it. Bob's Valiant was the best voyager/liveaboard of that time and remains a great boat. I think in viewing all the functions we want in our water ( not dirt) house the Outbound is the best for us and many agree. Face reality without displacement you become increasing dependent on systems to function to maintain the basics of life. Without displacement comfort, safety and quality of life can be achieved but with much greater difficulty. Basic proven construction techniques mean your boat can be fixed just about anywhere and is much more likely to return to it's orginal strength even when done by clumsy hands.
THAT'S REALITY. put down the glove. Apologize to Bob - respect his life's work. It's ok to be wrong. We all are at one time or another.
 
#122 ·
Very good points Outbound. I'm at the other extreme with Wolf- I have a 35ft full keel boat with 500 liters of water in the keel and 280 liters of diesel under the sole. The tanks being where they are give me cavernous storage throughout the boat. It's still a "4-knot sh!tbox" as they would say on SA... but it is very well built (a Vindo from Sweden) and it is very easy and inexpensive to maintain. Choices ...

Not to throw more wood on the fire, but how many miles per day does your boat do on passage compared to one of Paulo's examples like a pogo? I know mine averages about 110 miles a day, which is nothing to write home about, but at least it's a comfortable ride. My only complaint is that it doesn't move in really light air.
 
#123 ·
Sailed on other owners boats so know she ghosts wonderfully. Had one short sail from Newport to Barrington in less then 10kts all day and saw 6s and 7s. No need for engine. Average above 6. On passage other owners say count on ~180. Sailing polar says above 12kt should see hull speed ( 8.32) or better. Trades fine - over hull speed get 200m/d.Tx. Tried to run numbers and from what I can see given usual time of year and course of travel would be less than a day -likely much less between the boats.Numbers may lie. Really don't know a hard answer. See what happens in the ARC and other passages. Spoke with several owners. All impressed what they get out of the boat day to day in all kinds of weather.
Haven't had time to quote log on my own boat yet. Norfolk to R.I last week of May. Will let you know.
 
#124 ·
Now you are sorta kinda down to the what I was saying earlier, or JeffH sometimes says, if you want to carry the farm on board, you need to increase disp for a given size, OR go longer! Jeff mentions comparing boats IIRC by disp or WL.

Either way you look at it, you need the SA for X lbs disp to ghost you along in lighter winds, or sails that allow you to ghost, or you use the perverbial iron genny like we need to do here in the salish sea if you want to get some where. In the middle of the ocean, a drifter would come into play very nicely!

If you want a boat as Paulo suggests, you need to go longer to get the disp such that one can place the water tanks etc in a manner as to not make the designer, say some bob perry dude rotflhao! or make if fuller with more disp for a given size.

Personally, Brian needs to go longer if he could afford, or find a longer equal style catalina if that is his prefered brand, such that performance is not killed as much with the junque/junk he carries. No different that I see with folks with land yachts/RV's, they think they will load 700-800 lbs in their rigs. usually closer to 1500 lbs, or more if living in it per say as Brian and family are doing. They as Brian has done IMHO, not payed attention to the actual payload that a given boat/rv can carry, with out hurting performance!

I could do quite nicely with a boat as Paulo suggest, and FT10 or equal around here for how I travel. Wife on the other hand. looks at the different DS style boats and purrs. But most of them are slower than dead slugs going backwards! it comes down to finding something in the middle, that is nice inside for her, but has speed fun potential for me. This is probably how most of us have to choose a boat, along with budget!

In the mean time, there is "NO PERFECT BOAT" for everyone! just as we humans look different, we all have a what is our perfect boat, which WILL be different than someone elses.

Marty
 
#125 ·
Paulo just likes a good debate and I can appreciate that. But he borders on being a bully and is a bit myopic when it comes to the full range of cruising boats. That's OK. He's passionate and that's all good.

For the record:
I think Paulo and I have the same taste in boats.
I like to sail fast.

For the record:
Of course the modern design offices all do stability studies. We all use computers now andf all it takes is the push of a button. I love it when Paulo lectures me on how a yacht design office works. Usually these days we do multiple stability studies as we evaluate different keels and draft options. This is a given and made possible by the computer. Before computers, even the biggest design offices seldom did full stability studies. It took too much tie. Still, those offices produced fine, and safe sea boats. It took having the "feel" for what boats do at sewa. I like to think I still have that feel.

For the record:
Paulo's claim that you can use all that volume aft in the flat, wide stern racer type hull for cruising gear is not valid. You cannot put a 100 gallon fuel tank in the stern of one of those boats without bad trim problems. However, in a heavier boat, say a D/L arpound 275 you may have volume below the cabin sole in the keel cavity to install a 100 gal. fuel tank amidships where it will not hurt anything while actually helping to lower your VCG.

That's all I have to say about that.
I have to take my dog to the groomer today. That means from 8:30 am until noon I am going to be in a very bad mood. I don't like to be without my dog. Spo Paulo if you want to come at me please get your facts straight and you may want to rethink your efforts to lecture me on how the world of yacht design works. It's my world.
 

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#130 ·
For the record:
Paulo's claim that you can use all that volume aft in the flat, wide stern racer type hull for cruising gear is not valid. You cannot put a 100 gallon fuel tank in the stern of one of those boats without bad trim problems. However, in a heavier boat, say a D/L arpound 275 you may have volume below the cabin sole in the keel cavity to install a 100 gal. fuel tank amidships where it will not hurt anything while actually helping to lower your VCG.
Exactly!

And given what is often very sparse cabinetry, and little storage, many of the items you take for cruising are either tossed on top of the cabinetry, put in mesh bags hanging from the ceiling, or (and my alltime favorite) taking up the entire quarter berth or head or shower.

Not only does this make for an uncomfortable boat to live aboard, but it prevents you storing those things safely below the waterline, it makes things very inconvenient to get to, and when the boat starts rolling those things are jumping all around the boat.

My opinions.

Brian
 
#126 ·
Always liked Vindos. Beautiful inside and at 50' you can play catch inside. Seems everyone ( maybe even Paulo) has come to the same place. There are advantages and disadvantages to all designs. Extreme designs do extreme things extremely better. Moderate designs may serve "real life" better for many of us. As design and technology advances real meaningful advance occurs. My boat addresses the issues Bob speaks to intelligently, elegantly and makes use of our understanding of the physics of sailing. It's right for the bride and me. I won't be bullied into thinking otherwise.
 
#127 ·
I've been thinking, again.
"The past is the past".
Right.
Some sailors prefer the past. Some prefer the past for aesthtic reaons. Some just prefer the way the older boats sail. Some older boats are very forgiving. For some it's a question of economics, "I'd love a radical 50' cruising boat but all I can afford is this old Pearson." So we own the boats we like and the boats we can afford. We keep our bottoms clean. We maintain our gear and we buy the best sails we can afford, new or used. And, here's the clincher, we all enjoy our boats.

Today I am wearing a green flannel shirt. That's my choice. It's an old man's shirt but hell, I'm an old man and I like it. I'll be your shirt is different. That's fine with me.
 
#128 ·
Ok, well here has been one of MY points in all of this.

A can of green beans takes up the size of a can of green beans. A screw driver takes up the size of a screw driver. A spare water pump takes up the size of a spare water pump. Period!!

I have already said that there are things in my boat that I carry that are kid related. Any yeah, I play the guitar and that takes up space too. But when it comes to cruising, and especially living aboard, that is something I know quite a bit about. I don't design the boats and I don't make my decisions based upon hypothesis. I live in them, and I know what you will most likely be carrying!

What I tried to do at the beginning of this thread was to lay out what a cruiser was. It was not to say that was the only definition of a cruiser. It was my definition. And as such, with that type of cruiser, you have to carry certain things. THose things take up space. That space has to be accounted for. You gotta put your screw driver somewhere.

SO what I did was I listed out the specifics of the things I carry, including the space they take up. Funny that many people keep avoiding the specifics of what I carry and keep inferring it is 'all that stuff'. That is why I ask them what THEY would take off. THat makes for a good discussion. In the end, once you have compiled what you would take off, you now have the specifics to determine how you are going to put that on boat X. I think most here would be very surprised to see that there is not a whole lot of things they would take off and will be shocked to see the amount of room it takes up.

My long held argument is that many of the Racer-cruiser boats (what I call a racer-cruiser) do not have the storage for these items. In fact, they often will have shallow bilges, sparse cabinetry, sparse tankage, and many other things that make them a great boat for weekending, buoy races, or vacationing, but simply make the boat a poor choice (not an impossible choice) for the type of cruising I do. For others, who 'cruising' means running down to the nearest marina for the weekend, it will be fine. But when you cruise, at least anywhere near my definition of it, you carry a lot of stuff. Grocery stores are not across the street. THere is not a West Marine at every corner. Even if you have a watermaker, you often cannot run it in the anchorages. You have to take a crap, and that uses 1-3 Gallons/person/day. - before you are either illegally pumping overboard, peeing off the side, or scurrying into a marina for a pumpout. And pumpouts, even should you find one that works, are often a fairly long rid (and ain't free). And I haven't even got started yet on trying to find propane or other things!!

Another point of contention: I began living aboard in 2000 and had my oldest son on board at 5 days old. My youngest son has, with a few periods off the boat, really never known anything but boating and living aboard. We have done it, do it now, and will be doing it for as long as I can see. I know what works and what does not. Boating is and has been our life. So when I read about a boat, chosen as the 'family cruiser', and I come out and have serious misgivings about aspects of it, maybe I know what I am talking about? I would love to know how many of the judges that choose the 'family boats' have lived on their boats, currently live on their boats, and will be living on their boats AND (BIGGEST AND) have raised their kids on their boats nearly since birth?? How many of them do it now? Or is this some industry recognized experts that won a race and somehow are qualified to choose boats and select boats for families? Pfft. Ask a parent, live aboard, and cruiser that is raising their kids on their boat what they would look for in a 'family cruiser' and you might just find we don't like none of the stuff the 'experts' pick.

There are SOME whose opinions I do value on what makes a good cruising boat for a family. Tom Neale is one. He's been there and done that, though his girls are now gone. Interesting, though, his boat selection choice (Gulfstar 54... and you think MY BOAT IS FAT AND SLOW!)... and I wonder how many of the 'judges' have read his book, "All in the Same Boat"?

None of this is to say that you cannot make any boat work. You can Make a boat work. But going back to the point of this thread, the typical Racer-Cruiser will have serious tradeoffs as a live aboard and cruising boat - enough so that I guess (GUESS) the boat becomes more unsafe than its HD counterpart and vastly more uncomfortable.

Brian
 
#129 ·
Outbound, thanks for the compliments on the Vindo. They are indeed very attractive, though I suppose not for everyone's taste (as this thread has proven!). Sorry to mislead you in my signature, it's 35ft, not 50ft. The model was called a Vindo 50 because it carried 50 square meteres of sail.

And Bob you have hit the nail on the head with this one:

""I'd love a radical 50' cruising boat but all I can afford is this old Pearson." So we own the boats we like and the boats we can afford. We keep our bottoms clean. We maintain our gear and we buy the best sails we can afford, new or used. And, here's the clincher, we all enjoy our boats."

I bought this boat because it was the best quality boat I could afford and it pleased my eye. There are times I wish I could get it to move better in light air, but otherwise I'm happy with it. The wife and kids and I get to go cruising and have a blast. We're comfortable on board and it gets the job done.
 
#132 ·
Brian-
Next time you go to Sears, ask for the 2013 Special Tools Catalog. You'll have to present ID and sign for it, they won't mail them out. Turn to page 45, check out the freeze-dried screwdrivers. They take up much less space than the old-fashioned kind. You can fit a full dozen of them in a number ten envelope. (VBG)
 
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