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You are NOT "FISHING"

21K views 137 replies 35 participants last post by  FSMike 
#1 ·
So this past weekend I'm crewing on a boat that's doing a distance race. Wind is light, almost nonexistent and we're barely keeping the boat moving. I'm down below when I hear yelling back and forth. Seems a local charter boat was out fishing, had their outrigger float (paravanes?) out and were pissed b/c we didn't turn out of there way. Lots of angry words :hothead launched our way, volleyed back by the helmsman trying to explain that A, we were sailing (stand on vessel) and B, we can't move much b/c there is so little wind.

I did discern from one "comment" that they basically thought they were in the rights b/c they were "fishing" and they shouldn't have to move to prevent their gear from being run over. They did eventually pull in the float to miss us.

Now I will say if I'm out sailing around casually, I personally try to avoid folks out fishing as a matter of courtesy. Evidently though these guys saw us (and the other boats around us) well in advance and just chose to troll along basically right at us.

We even had a guy on board who has a 100 ton license and he said there is a real problem w/ these yahoos who seem to think if they have a line out, they are "FISHING". NOT.

Anyone else have this problem?:confused:
 
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#2 ·
Define "fishing"

Okay, I understand where you are coming from, but I am curious to a few things:

  1. What is your definition of fishing? Only commercial guys (net or string line) or any Joe hanging his line out over the rail?
  2. Was the boat that was "fishing" motoring, anchored, or drifting? Different rules for each of these situations.

DrB
 
#3 · (Edited)
The rules or the road are clear; he was not fishing in the sense of having rights.

_______________

That said, when manuvering is not in tight areas (channels and harbors) and the 2 boats involved are both recreational, doesn't it come down to politness? Who could manuver more easily? I don't know the wind conditions. I do sail and I do ocationally fish with trolling gear and outboard planer boards. I have also raced sailboats.

Yes, the fisherman can turn, but the turning radius to avoid tangling lines is often very long, perhaps several hundred yards, and even then there is some risk. A tangle can take 10 minutes or more to unwind. It is generally FAR easier for you to avoid the fisherman. And it is not power-vs-sail thing; listen on the VHF and you will hear them give each other grief.

Some sailors feel the fact that they are "racing" makes a difference, that it makes them important. It doesn't. Though politness dictates that I avoid racing fleets, remember that racing is a choise you have made, no more important than the decision the powerboater made to go fishing. We are simply enjoying a day's recreation.

Some powerboaters (most?) have no understanding of what sailboats can and cannot do; that if you are closehauled you can bear off but not head higher, and that with a chute up that angles are even more constrained without the inconvinience of tack or jibe. Last week I was trolling under sail weaving and avoiding fisherman. I was always surprised at how ALL had no idea that I could dodge one way easily but not the other. At the same time most sailors have no understanding of fishing gear.

It's not hard to see at a great distance if a boat is trolling or kite fishing. They alter course very little and are easy to avoid.

----

Perhaps now you will understand what they see. When they see you steer away you may even get a polite wave!
 
#4 ·
I too hate the "we're RACING" mentality that means that don't have to obey the rules.

However, as stated we were not moving very fast b/c of almost nonexistent wind and this guy basically came at us head on and was pissed b/c we didn't get out of his way.

He does NOT have rights as a "FISHING" vessel under Colregs. And you would be surprised how often I hear powerboaters say, Yeah, we were out fishing and trolling and this sailboater wouldn't get out of our way. Well, as the STAND ON vessel we are obligated to hold course until it becomes apparent there is risk of collision.
Interesting thing is this guy was a charter boat which means he has at least a OUPV (6pack) and should know better.
 
#6 ·
(b) A sailing vessel under way shall keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;
(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
(iii)a vessel engaged in fishing;
(c)A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;
(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manageability.


Doesn't seem to matter upon reading the above, but a charter fishing vessel is a commercial fishing boat.
 
#7 ·


(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manageability.


Doesn't seem to matter upon reading the above, but a charter fishing vessel is a commercial fishing boat.
Not the way it was explained to me by a Coastie years ago and multiple captains as they were taught in class.

Regardless, "D", above would apply. He just didn't want to pull in his planer board. (now I know what the hell that thing is called!) The actual vessels were not going to collide.

To further elaborate, we were flying an assym (barely) and could not bear off as that would have collapsed the chute and killed what speed/maneuverability we had. I'm just glad I was not directly involved being below when it all started.
 
#9 ·
Years back I was sailing south from Lake Worth Inlet with a wind out of the north making about 3-4 knots down wind beautiful day. I was on the same heading all day BUT there was a fishing Tournament. The wonderful People would pass me trolling and towing kites then cut across my bow. Some so close I could spit in the cockpit. Never saw so many fishing in black slacks and white shirts. I got so bothered by the threats and obcenitees I herd I went bellow and got a pistol. I wasn't going to die for lack of shooting back. I saw the best south Florida had to offer. Why I to this day Stay away from lake worth on a weekend... Never been anywhere someone could blast by you in a 30-50 Fishing boat about 25mph so close I could swing my boom out and kill half the crew.. I realize the channel is tight but it does have a speed other than WFO. You aint lived till you been passed on both sides by boats going opposite directions on plane in the channel from the bridge north of Peanut Island to the cut off for the north anchorage.
 
#10 ·
TTC, I don't think a powerboater with the outriggers out and a few lines would be seen as having restricted maneuverability. PDQ said that a change in course can result in tangled lines that may take 10 minutes to clear, but that doesn't make him any less maneuverable. Contrast that to a fishing vessel towing 4-500' (or more) of netting with thousands of pounds of fish inside the net, let alone aboard the vessel. That set-up has restricted maneuverability.
 
#17 ·
True, as I stated he was definatly not fishing. The rules are about safety, and a few tangles have no bearing on that.

Based on the OP's description, yup he was a jerk; while I would try to avoid, I can't if I'm becalmed (something he could have seen many minutes before) and I wouldn't worry about it.

Racers should expect to have to dodge now and then, and fishermen should expect a few tangles and a few lost rigs. That's the way it's always been for me, and I'm OK with it.

-------

FYI. One of my more memorable expereinces concerned a water skier that thought it was funny to cross my wake while fishing; he caught my rigs, pulled off all the line, and went on his way. I met him back at the ramp, hours later. He had been towed in after my steel leaders made a mess of his outdrive. Be warned cutting behind trollers!
 
#11 ·
I have always been under the impression that boats "fishing" we're the big boys. Not the 6 pack charter or recreational rod & reel crowd. Even if you're trolling 6 lines behind the boat you are still able to manuver easier than a sailboat.

In your case the captain of that vessel is probably wrong. Not much you can do about because you are after all, a rag merchant :D
 
#12 ·
Okay, if he thinks he's "engaged in fishing" under the Colregs, then he's required to show the proper lights or day shapes (two cones with pointy ends meeting, Rule 26). So that day fishing boat? No cones, no right-of-way. And virtually no one without a deep-water license shows, or knows about, day shapes so the sailboat will almost always win (at least legally) over the fishing boat that's not "engaged in fishing" but thinks he is.

And yeah, there's no "we're racing" provision in the regs either. It's a courtesy thing but not required. So be courteous.
 
#13 ·
(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manageability.
The charter & recreational boats here on the bay are trolling and Do Not have Right of Way, but they all think they do. Big difference between Trolling and Trawling. We mostly keep out of their way, but sometimes they are so thick, you have no option but to go through their fleet.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Sure, but if you're 'restricted in ability to maneuver" but do nothing to show it and it's all underwater and not visible or obvious, how do I get faulted under the rules for thinking I had right of way? You keep your status a secret to an otherwise reasonable and attentive observer when the rules say you 'shall" exhibit the required lights and shapes, and you've kept your "privileged" status a secret to the point where (my opinion) you lose it because you've caused a collision or close-quarters situation unnecessarily.

I guess we could say an invisible boat (if such existed) off my starboard has the right of way. yet there's no way I could know that. This is like "is there sound in the forest with no one to hear it".
 
#19 ·
And a different perspective...

A couple years ago doing the local white sails race I managed (thanks to my PHRF rating) to be leading the fleet as we round the reach mark for the line. As I looked ahead I could see 16 purse-seiners between my position and the start/finish line. I spotted what looked to be a clear path direct to the line so away we went. As I got close to the fishing fleet one of the tenders dropping net starting cutting across my bow from right to left. I eased left a little, tender driver and I made eye contact and he chopped the throttle and nodded to let me pass. Fell off a bit and as we passed close he yelled "Are you racing?" to which I replied, "Yes, thank you!!" As I was clear he jammed the throttle in and closed the gate of the fleet behind me. :D
 
#23 ·
The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manageability.

I guess it does depend on the definition of manageability.
 
#25 ·
nolatom interpretations are correct.

There is a difference between a fishing boat and a vessel engaged in fishing, just as there is a difference between a sailboat and a sailing vessel.

A vessel engaged in fishing must show shapes.

Even a large troller is not restricted in their ability to maneuver. I have had them give way to me while I was a sailing vessel. One of the skippers came down the dock at Ucluelet to tell me how much he enjoyed seeing us under sail out there.
 
#27 ·
As SOLARE pointed out, sometimes thems fisher type boats are thick as bees on our section of the Chesapeake!:eek:

This really boils down to the guy being a jerk. And while you can "assume" they have a planer board out, you can't really see those things too easily. SOME of the boats have a little vertical stick w/ a flag... some don't. NONE of the fishing boats, charter or private fly any day shapes.

For the record I try to stay away from them as well as the crabbers. The crabbers have a hard enough living but trying to figure out where they are going next is impossible; they're kinda like a bumblebee flitting from flower to flower!

And to finish this off, Sunday AM as we were coming up the Bay there was a tug pushing coming south. I hailed him on 13 to see if was going to the west channel or was going to turn east. He told me his intentions and suggested one whistle. While it meant turning off course a bit to take his stern and losing speed due to the wind angle, at that point it wasn't going to hurt us; we only lost a couple of minutes and he would have had a time trying to turn and avoid US.
I'm guessing the positive interactions outnumber the lousy ones by at least 30 or 40 to 1. Just too bad this yahoo (and his buddy a few minutes later felt the need to lob verbal bombs our way.
 
#31 ·
(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with
nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability,
but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing
apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.


I must have a different book. I don't see the word manageability in mine. (unless was that humor ?... then sorry. )

Anyway, A trolling line can be cut or reeled in if needed to give-way.

I fish (troll) off my boat all the time, I've lost a few good lures to other boats unintentionally cutting my lines. Power boats don't typically expect a sailboat to be trolling a couple of lines. I've never run over someone else's. It's just a courtesy thing.

Many species like shiny objects moving @ 5 kn. ;-) I've cruised by a recreational fishing fleet...and picked up fish..much to their surprise..
 
#38 ·
We were on the 36.7 during the same race and also had a similar situation. No profanity (surprisingly enough) but the fishing boat was not to happy about the distance between a sailboat and his precious home made planers. They all seemed pissed that they had to drop their d!cks and turn the boat 10*. They certainly were not going to put down their beers or pick up a radio.

What I don't get is that we were at the starting area, had a committee boat drop anchor, set an inflatable marke, had a bunch of sailboats around in sequence and radio chatter with countdowns, and the fishing boats just trolling straight through the start line. Do they not understand that fishing 20 yds away will give them the same results? Fish can swim, you don't always need to drop the hook on their heads.

In my experience the guys fishing out there (on the bay) have no clue about the rules. They ALL think they have rights b/c they're fishing. Since their definition benefits them, there's no reason for them to educate themselves about the actual rules.

In the Ches Bay, almost all big boats (commecial) have ROW. Barges and tugs, tankers, and cargo ships. The bay ain't that deep, stay out of their way.
 
#40 · (Edited)
In the Ches Bay, almost all big boats (commecial) have ROW. Barges and tugs, tankers, and cargo ships. The bay ain't that deep, stay out of their way.
A pedantic reminder, The is only reference to right of way in the US Inland Rules

5. Who has the "right of way" on the water? The Navigation Rules convey a right-of-way only in one particular circumstance: to power-driven vessels proceeding downbound with a following current in narrow channels or fairways of the Great Lakes , Western Rivers, or other waters specified by regulation (Inland Rule 9(a)(ii)). Otherwise, power-driven vessels are to keep out of the way (Rule 18) and either give-way (Rule 16) or stand-on (Rule 17) to vessels not under command or restricted in their ability to maneuver, sailing vessels or vessels engaged in fishing, and, similarly vessels should avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft (Rule 18), navigating a narrow channel (Rule 9) or traffic separation scheme (Rule 10). The Rules do not grant privileges they impose responsibilities and require precaution under all conditions and circumstances; no Rule exonerates any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2). Neglect, among other things, could be not maintaining a proper look-out (Rule 5), use of improper speed (Rule 6), not taking the appropriate actions to determine and avoid collision (Rule 7 & 8) or completely ignoring your responsibilities under the Rules.
There is no references to right of way in the International Rules. All vessels have obligations.

I expect that the narrow channel rule (Rule 9) applies in Chesapeake Bay.
 
#42 ·
Someone needs a reality check.
 
#43 ·
TTC,

Restricted in ability to maneuver doesn't mean inconvenient to maneuver, it means you can't.

Sailboats can't point above 45. Note the period on the end of that sentence.
Most can't just tack every 20 seconds while a troller plays with a school, or gets a fresh beer. For a lot of boats it's downright dangerous to go from a hard on the wind course to falling off on a beam without seriously adjusting sails (it would blow me right over in a serious wind).

I wish the DNR would actually put clear wording on registration applications that spelled out trolling doesn't count.

Until then I'll just have to tack well and tack early to miss people too stupid to fish at the supermarket.
 
#44 ·
The real problem is ignorance.
I think a lot of powerboaters just have the mindset of shove the throttle forward and go like hell! Not all, but just enough to give a bad impression. Sort of like bad cops; doesn't take but a few knuckleheads.

And not to stereotype boaters, but the reality is *MOST* sailors have a better knowledge of the rules as well as having better seamanship skills.

Personally I don't want to interfere w/ someone else's activity of choice on the water for
the simple reason that I don't always trust them or what they may do. And that depends on context. In a serious race w/ serious racers I KNOW that port tacker is going to either duck me (missing my stern by a foot or two if not inches) or tack or feels he's going to make it and probably will. And I know I can take action if need be. A less serious race I might stretch out the safety zone a bit but I still feel fairly confident everyone knows what the hell they're doing.

OTOH, just out daysailing around Annapolis on a weekend... uh, no, I don't trust that guy that's got poorly trimmed sails in a clunker of a boat and a wake that looks like a snake. I'll tack away from him almost every time regardless of my "rights". Cause it just isn't worth the hassle.
 
#47 ·
OTOH, just out daysailing around Annapolis on a weekend... uh, no, I don't trust that guy that's got poorly trimmed sails in a clunker of a boat and a wake that looks like a snake. I'll tack away from him almost every time regardless of my "rights". Cause it just isn't worth the hassle.
That is a great application of Rule 2.
 
#51 ·
#55 ·
I had a commercial salmon troller, identical to the picture, out of San Francisco. Once we were "outside" about the only major concern was ships. We purposely avoided areas where the recreational charter boat fleets were. There can be a lot of gear configurations.
The critical part is to keep the lines separated. I never had a tangle I could fix in 10 minutes. Sometimes, although rare, it was a cut and re-tie situation. tight turns can be a disaster.

Not knowing the exact gear configuration the troller had it is hard to guess how "restricted" he was in changing course. However, my guess is that the skipper of a commercial boat, in the process of trying to make money, no doubt feels everybody is beneath him. Perhaps like some sailboat racers we encountered in SF Bay when we later had a sailboat. Maybe it is human nature for one to think whatever he is doing is far more important than what others are doing?

Paul T
 

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