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  Topic Review (Newest First)
19 Hours Ago 06:33 AM
seaner97
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by seaner97 View Post
I was referencing the above article that referred to them that way.
No idea what it is or what it would look like, but sounds like a bad idea to me.
It was referring to keels bolted to glued in liners, not glued on keels. They don't exist.
Hey- I learned something!
21 Hours Ago 04:56 AM
mitiempo
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by seaner97 View Post
I was referencing the above article that referred to them that way.
No idea what it is or what it would look like, but sounds like a bad idea to me.
It was referring to keels bolted to glued in liners, not glued on keels. They don't exist.
22 Hours Ago 03:19 AM
Classic30
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess that Smacks point is about comparing the seaworthiness of a new or almost new mass production boat of 40ft or over in pristine condition with the seaworthiness of a 30 year old boat on the general condition they are normally kept and regarding that I would take the new production boat for bluewater sailing over the old shoe, not only because I think it would be safer but because it just would sail better and faster.
Well.. coming from someone with an old clunker who enjoys reading the opinions of the "old boys" (Adlard Coles, Maurice Griffiths, Uffa Fox, Donald Street, etc. etc. ad infinitum) I, for one, would agree with them when they say "safety" and "better, faster" are actually the same thing.

It seems somewhere, sometime late last century people forgot that being able to beat off a lee shore, get out of the way of a storm or simply arrive at your destination before nightfall is actually far more sea-worthy than plodding along out there and putting up with it.
1 Day Ago 10:12 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Jerry elegantly makes the point I've been trying to impress on you all along. He started with a good boat. Did a good restoration. Ends up with a good boat. You start out with poor design made poorly you can do what you want and you still have a poor boat for voyaging.
Whoever got Steves Mason could do the same thing. And yes for some boats the safe service life is longer than your own.
Given this is reflected in cost going in and return going out cost of ownership may not be that much higher when getting a good boat either new, newish, or old.
It's amazing, the number of folks out there who appear to believe that most any Average White Boat can simply be "beefed up" with a few modifications, and VOILA' - be magically transformed into a Bulletproof Globe Girdler... ;-)

There's a thread over on CF, started by a guy who wants an Outbound or its "Blue Water Equivalent", but apparently can't afford one, so he's looking for 'alternatives'... He's limited himself to North American built boats of recent vintage, and has pretty much shot down every suggestion thrown his way... He finally conceded he's just window shopping anyway, and really doesn't need such a boat, since all his sailing is coastal cruising, anyway...

Whereupon I asked him why the need for the Mythical Blue Water Boat? Why not consider something that might better suit the sort of sailing he actually does, that might fall within his budget? I tossed out the suggestion of a J-46, a boat I've always liked the look of, somewhat similar to the Outbound in certain respects, obviously a blast to sail, that could likely be found at a fraction of the cost of a new Outbound...

The guy currently owns a Catalina 36, and here was his reply:

Quote:
After having experienced my Catalina for several years, I would really like to move to something that is substantially stronger and I believe that means "blue water"

I am tired of severely limited storage, fuel that barely gives a 400 mile range (without reserves) and a damn liner. I also want to move up a couple of steps in the quality department.
Hmmm, sounds like he doesn't buy the notion that a larger Catalina might be "beefed up" to better suit even his coastal cruising plans, no?

;-)
1 Day Ago 08:15 PM
seaner97
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Out: I should have said "good" old boat, but thought it was implied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I don't think any keels are just "glued on".
I was referencing the above article that referred to them that way.
No idea what it is or what it would look like, but sounds like a bad idea to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well maybe you do that and end up with a fine boat but most don't have the possibility of having the boats refitted on Thailand where the labor is cheap and even so I bet that in the end you are going to spend more than what you had estimated but that is not the normal panorama.

Most that buy old boats that where once bluewater boats (when in new condition) do that convinced that once a bluewater boat always a bluewater boat and forget that the only thing that really lasts is the hull and that's less than 30% of the cost of the boat, all the rest, all metal parts and systems have to be changed after 20 years or so and vary rarely that has been done by the previous owner. The cost of making it as seaworthy as new will be huge.

Some years ago it makes the news a guy that wanted a HR but liked better the older models so he picked up a 42/45? foot boat and recovered it completely. In the end he was very happy becaues the boat had costed less than 175000 euros of a new boat (650 000 euros to 475 000 euros).

In fact he did not only managed to get a worse boat by design as he had lost an huge amount of money because the resale value of the old 25 years recovered boat was much inferior to the value of the new HR.

I guess that Smacks point is about comparing the seaworthiness of a new or almost new mass production boat of 40ft or over in pristine condition with the seaworthiness of a 30 year old boat on the general condition they are normally kept and regarding that I would take the new production boat for bluewater sailing over the old shoe, not only because I think it would be safer but because it just would sail better and faster.

Off course there are some exceptions and some few maintain their old boats in pristine condition but those will tell you that is a very expensive thing to do and they are a small minority.
Boats are expensive. For the same price, you can restore a "good" old boat in the US to better than new (assuming good hull and decks) for less than purchasing a new Hunter 40. I've put less than 15K into mine and have basically replaced or gone over every major system except the boom and the mast at this point, and that includes an overhaul of the engine (well, at least pulling it and doing a compression test and a once over by a diesel mechanic). The only things I've got left on my checklist of need to dos are to replace the lifelines and the standing rigging- both of which will be done for under 4k. Most of the expense I see is in electronics- Autopilot, Radar, GPS chart plotter etc. But I'm relatively certain that you could restore an old boat for less than a new one costs.
And see my "sunk cost" post about what I think about resale value of boats.
1 Day Ago 04:32 PM
PCP
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryrlitton View Post
Smack, I could have gone (you too) two routes and possibly three if I were rich. Depending on what I want to ultimately use the boat for. However since I am neither rich nor wanting to stay close to shore I chose a non production older boat with an offshore pedigree. Knowing that when I started in on this endeavor I would be spending beau coup boat bucks. However in the interest of safety, utility and awesome enjoyment (not to mention the much understated row-away factor)I would have no problem with that. Of course it helps to have all my kids through college and married off for sure. I was at the time looking casually for two years while trying to figure out my ultimate goal and this last year looking in earnest with my sights narrowed.

I found this one on the web, made several enquiries and asked Aeventyr to sail down and look. A week later he said if the bottom and inside look as good as the outside this is your boat. So I flew to Langkawi, next day we saw the boat. Motored it to the dry dock and proceeded to look. Soon discovered the rudder was a might loose, no soft spots nor voids and thought the prop shaft seal may look a bit iffy. However the pedigree was there so we took it out. I bought the boat the next day figured the plan to get it into shape. Remember I knew what I wanted and knew what I would be using it for so I had no problem making it happen.

Of course if I was in the USA this may not have happened since the cost of skilled labor here in Thailand is so much more reasonable. First step was to make it sea worthy, this meant dropping the rudder and rebidding it with a bronze collar and laying up a heavier join of glass. Then to pull the shaft. A new one was made there on site, no imported made in China, new cutless bearing made on site. I could have sailed the boat after this however I wanted so much more out of her, remember this is non production and most importantly is I wanted non production.
Step two was pull the cap rails, add new teak, re bed and fix and polish the stainless rails. Added several cars to the rails which were also polished on site. Since we were there the stanchion base place were made on site and made about two inches taller to better support the stanchions themselves which were lengthened to just bellow hip height. The lockers were all tabbed/glassed and painted, bulkheads were re glassed. New dividers were added and glassed in the aft lazzerette to accommodate the chain and rode for the stern anchor that is mounted on the rail, ready to and a second Fortress that is disassembled with chain and rode also in the aft lazzerette, the forward anchor locker initially held 250' of 3/8 BB however added another 250' of rode to that. The original anchor is a 45 CQR on the right side bow roller however this will be shifted to the left as a secondary anchor with 50' 3/8 with 250 rode. The rig will accommodate 55 Rocna on the right so the non production boat with have three anchors ready to deploy with a fourth on standby. All of this powered by a Muir horizontal windless. Aeventyr60 already hinted at the gin palace details so I won't bore you with that. All for about 10 boat bucks.

Step three will be to sail her down to Langkawi where there is no import tax for yacht owners. Here we will install 360 watts of solar, LED mast light with anchor light, stove/oven/broiler. Another LPG bottle to be mounted to the rail with two sniffers in the cabin, new VHF with AIS, the new Rocna, AM/FM stereo with blue tooth imputs so I can use my iPad for music, new vang by Garhauer, another Yamaha 5hp outboard to mount along side on the rail the existing 15hp. The 15 weighs in at 85 lbs, the five is so much lighter for when you need to mount the thing on your dinghy during not so smooth seas. More wire for rigging as spare, Flare kits, hand held VHF, spare GPS, EPIRB, multimeter, tools bags etc etc etc. all in all about 10 more boat bucks.

However when it is done late August it will be a very fine offshore boat and it will be mine. So undoubtably I have no problem buying a older boat and spending what needs to be spent, after all my life and more importantly other lives depend on it. That is why I went non production where I could have easily and cheaper went the benehuntalina route.

BTW when the boat sailed across the a Pacific from Mexico to the Marqueasas it averaged 7.59 knots. 182 mile average a day with several of 200 so the speed is there. And that was sans vang.
Well maybe you do that and end up with a fine boat but most don't have the possibility of having the boats refitted on Thailand where the labor is cheap and even so I bet that in the end you are going to spend more than what you had estimated but that is not the normal panorama.

Most that buy old boats that where once bluewater boats (when in new condition) do that convinced that once a bluewater boat always a bluewater boat and forget that the only thing that really lasts is the hull and that's less than 30% of the cost of the boat, all the rest, all metal parts and systems have to be changed after 20 years or so and vary rarely that has been done by the previous owner. The cost of making it as seaworthy as new will be huge.

Some years ago it makes the news a guy that wanted a HR but liked better the older models so he picked up a 42/45? foot boat and recovered it completely. In the end he was very happy becaues the boat had costed less than 175000 euros of a new boat (650 000 euros to 475 000 euros).

In fact he did not only managed to get a worse boat by design as he had lost an huge amount of money because the resale value of the old 25 years recovered boat was much inferior to the value of the new HR.

I guess that Smacks point is about comparing the seaworthiness of a new or almost new mass production boat of 40ft or over in pristine condition with the seaworthiness of a 30 year old boat on the general condition they are normally kept and regarding that I would take the new production boat for bluewater sailing over the old shoe, not only because I think it would be safer but because it just would sail better and faster.

Off course there are some exceptions and some few maintain their old boats in pristine condition but those will tell you that is a very expensive thing to do and they are a small minority.
1 Day Ago 12:38 PM
Minnesail
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by seaner97 View Post
it's fun to have semi intelligent arguments about boat design.
Semi.
1 Day Ago 12:31 PM
jerryrlitton
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I know some are. But if that's the judgement being placed on modern production boats across the board, I (and the vast majority of the current boating industry) obviously don't agree.
Granted I have no background in statistics however I have always believed in the "lies, damn lies and statistics" thing i would guess that SN would represent quite well the boating industry............
1 Day Ago 11:41 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryrlitton View Post
With all due respect I think this is exactly what we are talking about.
I know some are. But if that's the judgement being placed on modern production boats across the board, I (and the vast majority of the current boating industry) obviously don't agree.
1 Day Ago 11:08 AM
jerryrlitton
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No argument there. But those kinds of boats are not what we're talking about in this thread.

With all due respect I think this is exactly what we are talking about.
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