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  Topic Review (Newest First)
1 Minute Ago 11:34 PM
Capt Len
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

You could raise the fore deck and mount the drum underside. Then the taffrail gets raised over the great cabin ports and gaffs added. Pretty soon you got a good looking boat,maybe not for everyone though.
1 Minute Ago 11:34 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post

Wire rope ,while stronger than chain, is 1/7th the weight. Kellets give me all the weight I need, in far more manageable form.
The effect of a kellet can often be pretty marginal with a chain rode, even less so with a much lighter wire or rope...

There's a guy named Peter Smith, who knows a bit about anchoring... He makes a pretty good case for the value and practical utility of kellets being typically overstated, and often lying largely in the user's imagination...


Kellets or Anchor Angels / Sentinels: Uses and Applications
1 Minute Ago 11:33 PM
Brent Swain
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I make my wire rope up in 50 ft lengths, with eyes at either end, shackled together, which make good attachment points for snubbers, and kellets.
Drum winches make a boat look less like a dainty plastic toy from a blister pack in London drugs, and more like a real ship.
Some prefer the former, some, usually the more experienced, prefer the latter.
Put a lot of full time wear and tear on the former, and they just look like a wrecked plastic toy from London Drugs.
Wear and tear on the latter , just makes them look like they have been somewhere, beyond placid anchorages and sheltered marinas..
18 Minutes Ago 11:16 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
In the tropics, my clients have been very happy using wire rope for anchor rode, with a nylon snubber or kellet to absorb the shock . While my 7X19 stainless got meat hooks from broken strands in a year, those using well greased galvanized rope get 2 1/2 years out of it, no meat hooks , and it is super cheap to replace. Of course if you use wire rope, you have to use a drum winch, such as is universal on commercial fish boats around here.
Just curious, how exactly does one affix a nylon snubber to a length of "well-greased" galvanized wire?

However, I'm guessing many of us here lack the requisite space on our foredecks for a large commercial wire drum winch...

Which is a shame, as I can think of few things that might more greatly enhance the appearance of the sort of boats most of prefer to sail...

Damn, I wish you hadn't brought this up... Now I'm gonna be yearning to figure out how to put a massive, well-greased commercial fishing wire drum winch on the foredeck of my little tub...


19 Minutes Ago 11:16 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by skygazer View Post
Thank you for your reply. I'm unclear why you would not leave the boat when using that anchor, could you expand?
One of the biggest downsides to a traditional Fisherman/Herreshoff type of anchor, is that one of the flukes will always be pointed skyward, and the anchor has to be dug in really deeply into the bottom to bury the tip of that fluke. That's still possible with an anchor like a Luke Storm anchor, where the stock or crossbar is at the top of the shank...

...but not so with the Northill, where the stock is at the bottom of the shank, adjacent to the flukes... Except in the softest of seabeds, seems unlikely this one will bury itself completely...

With the upright fluke sticking up above the bottom, the risk of leaving the boat unattended is that should it swing around due to a wind shift, or change in a tidal current, the rode could snag or wrap the fluke, and thus trip the anchor... Generally not a good thing, at least depending upon where you happen to be...

32 Minutes Ago 11:02 PM
Brent Swain
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Chain is heavy. Think putting it on deck unwise. One of reasons I like the Boreal. That significant weight ends up low and near the center of the boat.
Agree chain can stink. That's why having a good way to clean it before it's stored makes sense.

Wire rope ,while stronger than chain, is 1/7th the weight. Kellets give me all the weight I need, in far more manageable form.
Any rode in an on deck drum, cleans itself.
33 Minutes Ago 11:01 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Any cone shape under the hawse pipe stops it from piling up in a cone shape. Traffic cones work, altho beefing them up from the inside with fibreglass wont hurt.
On another site a guy, who keep telling me that everything I said was wrong( a guy with minimal, if any cruising experience ) was having a lot of trouble with this problem. I thought of telling him this simple tip, then thought "No way , he has all the answers and, according to him, I don't . Let him figure it out."
He got a lot of complex suggestions, but none of them as simple and practical as what I would have suggested.
So I dealt the same way with a lot of his problems ,and watched him struggle
( At least, that's how I think it is spelt)
With an Ideal windlass the hawse pipe was so far forward there wasn't room for any cone taller than about 6". I tried a pipe to direct the chain aft but that did not work. The current arrangement is good plus the weight is carried further aft.
36 Minutes Ago 10:59 PM
Brent Swain
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Smack- Chall has it just right. Given that believe it would be helpful to exam the CURRENT crop of boats with that in mind. Believe it could inform folks reading this thread when they go off to the boat shows or through the yards before purchase.

Already issues of thru hulls and cleats and chainplates have been mentioned. Like to add appendages- rudders and keels. Once again it's a compromise. Full keels add wetted surface and make boat handling more difficult. Friend did the world ARC. There was a big IP in the rally. They were happy campers but always the very last in. Being out longer means need for more stores and longer time exposed to weather. Means higher likihood of bumps docking.
Friend has quality production racer/cruiser. Off Maine coast "touched" without stopping. Following week bilge pumps ran more than usual. Eventually hauled. Found forward keel bolts broken and spider cracks aft of keel stub. Big bill. ? Trust this boat in future.
Internal ballast means chord of keel will be thicker. This can degrade performance. No keel bolts means obligate need for Pb not Fe for ballast. More expense if bulb added , bolted and glassed over. No exposed soft Pb to absorb impacts with ability to easily fair afterward.

All are compromises. I choose internal ballast with bulb. Is this the "right choice". NO. But it's my choice based on my past mishaps and difficulties. Can a bolt on be just as strong and care free. YES. But the buyer needs to carefully review the design, engineering, and execution.

I look at the current trend to iron keels with no stub on the canoe body and t keels and wonder is this a good choice for a cruiser?

Same with rudders. All to often the rudder is holding on the skeg. With wear and tear this design adds nothing and means more steering effort for the AP to deal with. More wear and tear. G-d forbid you get some between leading edge of rudder and aft of skeg. Especially in cold waters or when you absolutely need steerage. But that design, if done right, can be ver strong. You also have a bearing you can't service without a haul and more wetted, unproductive surface.
The balanced spade can be every bit as strong but it takes engineering. Rudder tube needs to extend above waterline with massive supports. Bearings need to be well thought out. Post needs to be overbuilt. Even then a significant lateral grounding may bend the post with loss of steering. With twin rudders impact from a forward direction would seem more likely but performance can be enhanced.
Now add in the steering linkage of two wheels. Cruiser beware. Yes, if done right (Italia) very strong but seems a increasing area of difficulty in some current boats.
Aft hung rudders seem great with no hull piercing. However, the top of the rudder is exposed so at speed may have cavitation. Med moors are scary. Bearings are constantly exposed.
All are compromises. I have balanced spade. I believe it was engineered and executed correctly. If I hit the lottery and did a one off I would have something similar to the CF cutters but also have a sugarscoop over it projecting past trailing edge of rudder with rudder stopping at the bottom base of scoop. Still end up with a rudder post but no hull piercing and ability to have benefits of a balanced spade.

In short, cruisers need to compromise. Issues are performance, ease of service, durability, strength, expense, simplicity, comfort etc. Smack please recognize this. Please recognize we are not talking about your Hunter but rather current boats. And they have limits. Sure like hearing from more experienced cruisers and professional sailors what those limits are. That way knowing those weaknesses can inform my decisions.
Great post!
With aft hung rudders ,sloping the bottom forward sucks water up them, while sloping it aft sucks air down. I have had zero problem with cavitation on the former ,but have heard of many such problems with the latter.
50 Minutes Ago 10:44 PM
Brent Swain
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Smack rudder's very rarely just fall off.

So let's be good armchair sailors and use the google and solve this one.

The boat was a custom one off, Backyard built actually(Brent are you around??)
There is a thread about the build on CF HERE..

Where you will find this...

So while a good boat based on a Brewer design, and by all accounts they did a sterling job on the build, it was a backyard built, highly custom glorified Brentboat not a Oyster, Outbound, Hallberg Rassy etc.

So what's your point? What does this have to do the price of fish in Mongolia?
Had a look.
I see only two , 1/4 inch bolts holding the bottom pintle on. Did Brewer actually design them that way ? No comparison to my 1 1/4 inch pintles on fully welded sockets, with 1 1/4 inch diameter stainless gudgeon pins.
I see a high aspect aluminium skeg with a short, narrow attachment to the hull. The only way to get adequate strength with that small a hull attachment,is to run the skeg right thru to the cockpit sole. Did Brewer design her that way?
1 Hour Ago 10:29 PM
Brent Swain
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Yes NCC there's no free lunch but the X yacht I mentioned is a well built boat in the same category of expense. The new Hinckley is a hell of a lot more. I think well more than double the price. So with the price point boats your argument may hold merit but I've owned Cape Dory with great anchoring systems, mid priced pacific seacraft as well and have seen very expensive boats where I wonder what were they thinking.
There is no way around the fact that plumb bows add a complexity to anchoring systems. Desire for clean decks another layer. This has nothing to do with cost and everything to do with geometry.
I'm sure the new Hinckley has figured this out and has a stout design but would note with a reasonable degree of overhang and engineering so did the average production boat in the past at quite modest cost.
Another advantage of a bit of overhang in the bow is it lets you snub up mooring buoy enough to stop it from banging your hull all night and keeping you awake.
A problem with excessive overhang in the stern is it eliminates the chance of using an outboard rudder , which makes self steering far more complex and fragile than it need be. An outboard rudder enables you to drastically simplify and toughen up the whole steering system, as well as make it far more accessible .
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