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Why a racer for cruising discussion...

32K views 237 replies 34 participants last post by  steve77 
#1 ·
We all have different opinions of what makes a good cruising boat. I get that. Believe me, Paulo's idea of what makes a good cruising boat, Jeff_h's, my dad's, and mine are three different animals altogether! I respect all of their opinions, but I have long tried to make a different case.

My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising? I am sure to get the typical response of, "Because we appreciate being able to sail and appreciate sailing over creature comforts." I have heard some variation of that for years. But, for a fulltime cruising boat, do you really gain that much going to a racing boat for cruising?

First, lets define cruising. Cruising, in my opinion (and everyone gets their own), is fulltime, probably no house, everything in storage, I am going-going-going or living on the water for well over a year, and likely many years, if not permanently. I have to tell you that the difference between taking off for a few weeks or even a few months (both of which I have done) while still maintaining a residence is TOTALLY different than selling it all and sailing (which we do now). Why? Because when you sell it all and sail, you don't have the luxury of odd storage, a place to return to when the boat gets cramped, that (un)realistic knowledge in the back of your head that if your boat sinks, you will just have to move back to your house and deal with the insurance company. I think SSCA has a similar definition, which I agree with, but I guess everyone gets their own. What I don't think is cruising is taking off for a few weeks, maybe a few months, where the idiosyncracies of your boat can just be shrugged off until you get back home. That seems like vacationing to me.

Next, lets define racer/performance/HD. My idea of a performance boat is a boat that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions. These are the typical conditions a cruiser will set off in, not necessarily the conditions they will see. Lets say these conditions are 15-20 kts sustained. A boat that cannot reach hull speed at these numbers is what I would define as a HD (heavy displacement cruiser... though I can think of a few more metaphors!). A boat that goes well over hull speed in 15-20, or in less than 15 sustained, I would define as a racer. Again, these are all open to discussion. They are my loose definitions.

Now, I am not in any way suggesting that everyone needs to get a HD Cruiser for cruising (though an argument can be made for them), but why get a racer? The majority of these boats are generally narrow beams, light storage, very light tankage, and deep draft. Many have air draft over 65, cutting off any hope of the ICW, and I can even make a good argument that air and water drafts over ICW limits also cut off safety. The comment will come up as usual, "because we appreciate a performing boat over the creature comforts." Well, if you are cruising, is your boat really still a racer?

For example, my boat used to be a LOT faster than it is now. SHe loved to jump up and go, and now it takes pretty close to 20 to get her at hull speed or thereabouts. I have a LOT of stuff on my boat, and I have two kids. I will admit that without the kids, it would be easier to rearrange this stuff to make it more accommodating for speed. Heck, our cans and food would be cut over half! But does my boat really have that much stuff on it for a cruising boat? Solar? Gotta make power some way. Without solar you are doomed to make power with a generator and subsequently carry more gas and diesel at what can easily add up to more weight. Water jugs. A few diesel jugs. Lots of food. Lots of tools. Lots of spare parts. Life raft. Some books (more minimal now with kindle). Snorkel gear (though I carry dive gear too). Tender. TV. Guitar. Bike. Cart. Minimal documents (now have scanned in most). My boat is heavy. I could cut some stuff, but these all get used and make our boat our home.

So what do you cut? And more importantly, where do you put that stuff that you feel is essential on a race boat? Most of the cruising boats I see, which have lots of storage, still have stuff crammed in every corner and every spare inch. I am not going to say I couldn't get rid of some stuff, but our deal is that if we don't use it much, it is off the boat (spare parts and tools the exception). Lets see, just my tools take up a 30x30x60 area... and that does not even include all the spare parts! Pots and pans of various sizes, including vacuseal bags, flower, sugar, and other necessary items take up the exact same side across from it. Can goods and bottled water fill the bilge. Spare parts in the holds below the waterline. Everything heavy is low, light is high. Most everything on this boat is secured in a locker or behind strong fiddleboards.

So again, what do you cut on a race boat? Can you? Cabinetry is often at a minimum. If you do not cut much, is that boat still a race boat? My argument has long been that when cruising on one of these boats, the stuff that the HD or even performance boats can stowe safely below and in holds, you end up stuffing in every corner, above the waterline, and/or on deck. Whereas we can keep most of our stuff safely secured and below the waterline, you may not or your boat is sooo stuffed down below that you cannot move around. And if you stuff it above deck, is that boat still performing well? Is she still safe for cruising? Because if you put 5000 pounds of stuff on a boat that is 25,000 lbs, then you have altered its displacement by 17%. If you put that same 5000 lbs on a boat that displaces 15000 lbs, you have altered its displacement by 25%... or about 50% more. Not to mention, much of that stuff in my opinion will go above the waterline and on decks whereas other boats can keep it below.

Now, a 40 foot racer as a man cave, single guy, I get that. I don't agree with it, but I get it. Its just you. But can you and a spouse really make that work long term? With kids? And is your boat going to be safer than mine, or a HD cruiser, when you really load it up with what you will need to cruise with? My guess (GUESS) is that you have now really changed that boat and the very properties you came to admire it for are now lost upon your chosen lifestyle. I also guess (GUESS) that in reality, that boat is less safe than the typical HD or performance cruiser which has the ability to properly stowe items.

What are others opinions? Agree? Disagree? Why?

Brian
 
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#176 · (Edited)
Well, that merely confirms what my lyin' eyes have been telling me for years... Namely, that for many of the cruising sailors I see out there, the art and enjoyment of sailing is simply not a particularly high priority...

NTTAWWT, of course... (grin)

If the day ever comes when I find myself removing my free-flying sails to make room for "other things", I'll know it's time to start browsing Yachtworld in search of something like this...

 
#185 ·
I suspect a lot of cruisers fall into that trap. They get their boats so loaded down, that the boat practically needs a gale to get it moving. As a result, they find themselves motoring more often when the wind isn't perfect. Then they decide that they don't really use that spinnaker very much, so they take it off, and replace it with more stuff. They are often the same people who declare "I don't need to clean my bottom, I'm not a racer, and my boat is slow anyway!" Not to mention "Why should I bother spending money on my sails, my boat is slow anyway"! It is a vicious cycle that ends with a power boat!

With regards to racer/cruisers, there is more to it than whether or not it has enough room for all the stuff you would like to take with you. Today's racer/cruisers have plenty of ammenities and storage. The choice to go with a performance cruiser has more to do with sailing. For example, In mast furling: from a performance perspective it is not just about the loss of sail area and sail shape, which in itself is not insignificant. It is also about excessive weight aloft, windage, and lack of tuneability. While a cruiser with in mast furling might feel that ease of reefing is great, the cruiser that has a good performance rig may not need to reef at all because they have the tools to depower and control the full main, plus they are not dealing with the extra heeling moment caused by the heavy "tree trunk" furling mast. I also wonder what you do if your in-mast furler jams with the sail partially furled. In that case, you are screwed, because there is no way you are going to get the sail down. Aside from the mast, performance oriented boats tend to be equipped with better quality hardware. Better running rigging, better winches, clutches, travellers, vangs etc. They have more efficient keels, and more powerful rudders. All of those upgrades make the boat more enjoyable to actually sail. To me, sailing is kinda the point of having a sailboat.

A case in point is what may very well be our next boat. A Jeanneau Sunfast 37. It has all the amenities of the Sun Odessey, except that they cater to performance minded sailors with the mast, keel, rudder and rigging. Sure, you have the inconvenience of not being able to deploy your cockpit table underway because of the cockpit mounted traveler, but that is a price I am willing to pay for the vastly superior functionality of it. The SunFast and the Sun Odessey are very similar boats, but the SunFast will do circles around the Sun Odessey. And it can win races too!
 
#188 · (Edited)
...
A case in point is what may very well be our next boat. A Jeanneau Sunfast 37. It has all the amenities of the Sun Odessey, except that they cater to performance minded sailors with the mast, keel, rudder and rigging. Sure, you have the inconvenience of not being able to deploy your cockpit table underway because of the cockpit mounted traveler, but that is a price I am willing to pay for the vastly superior functionality of it. The SunFast and the Sun Odessey are very similar boats, but the SunFast will do circles around the Sun Odessey. And it can win races too!
The Sunfast 37 is a nice boat and faster than a Sun Odyssey but not that faster:D The boats share the same hull while the Sunfast has better sail controls and a bigger draft.

One of my the nice sail memories was a passage between Leixões (Porto) and Figueira da Foz: lots of wind and downwind sailing. Some hours before my family was able to shower and get ready to sail, leaved the same marina a Sun fast 37 . When I arrived at Figueira da Foz I was directed to berth alongside it.

The boat belonged to a very nice French, that help me alongside. He was very happy with the great sailing day and he was very satisfied with his boat performance. He said to me that he had made an average of 7.4K and asked me how much time I had took: I look at the watch, asked my wife the departure time and tell him.

Well, his smile was not that big anymore:D. I had no idea of the average speed, only know that I had had a great sailing day. It turned out that I had made an average speed well over 8K. That does not mean that my Bavaria 36 was faster than his Sunfast 37 ( but it is more fast than the actual Bavaria 36) since I had been having fun and rarely had used the autopilot on all voyage (broached slightly two times). The point is the Sunfast 37 is not that fast.

From that vintage a First 36.7 or an Dehler 36 are way faster. If you can find a Dehler 36, it is a beautiful and great boat. Of course the Sunfast, even if not as fast, is also a great boat and probably not as expensive as the Dehler.

Regards

Paulo
 
#191 ·
The Sunfast 37 is a nice boat and faster than a Sun Odyssey but not that faster:D The boats share the same hull while the Sunfast has better sail controls and a bigger draft.

One of my the nice sail memories was a passage between Leixões (Porto) and Figueira da Foz: lots of wind and downwind sailing. Some hours before my family was able to shower and get ready to sail, leaved the same marina a Sun fast 37 . When I arrived at Figueira da Foz I was directed to berth alongside it.

The boat belonged to a very nice French, that help me alongside. He was very happy with the great sailing day and he was very satisfied with his boat performance. He said to me that he had made an average of 7.4K and asked me how much time I had took: I look at the watch, asked my wife the departure time and tell him.

Well, his smile was not that big anymore:D. I had no idea of the average speed, only know that I had had a great sailing day. It turned out that I had made an average speed well over 8K. That does not mean that my Bavaria 36 was faster than his Sunfast 37 ( but it is more fast than the actual Bavaria 36) since I had been having fun and rarely had used the autopilot on all voyage (broached slightly two times). The point is the Sunfast 37 is not that fast.

From that vintage a First 36.7 or an Dehler 36 are way faster. If you can find a Dehler 36, it is a beautiful and great boat. Of course the Sunfast, even if not as fast, is also a great boat and probably not as expensive as the Dehler.

Regards

Paulo
We considered the 36.7, and I have sailed on a couple. They are nice sailing boats, and certainly quicker than the SF37, but the Jeanneau is a much nicer cruising boat than the Beneteau. The same goes for the Bavaria, we have looked at several, and the wife doesn't like the layout. Dehlers are very rare around here, so although I have liked the look of the ones I have seen, I haven't seen many. (I really like the 50ish footer that is in our club with the cleverly designed fold away dodger...very slick!)

The Sun fast 35 locally in phrf is rated some 20+ secs a mile faster, IRC it is also rated a bit faster. The SF37 is a bit of a dog for what it should be! The SO25 is rated about the same as an SF37. Both the SO and SF 37 need a bit more SA to really reach there potential. I know of a fellow in Austrailia that took and SO 35 and added 5' to the mast, now that puppy performs!
Yes, the SF35 is on our radar as well, but again, they are rare. I would like to compare the 35 and 37 directly to see what the differences are. I have raced on a SF37, and thought it performed pretty well against the boats around it, even though I didn't think we sailed it to it's potential. I am not so much concerned with our ability to campaign it seriously as to it's overall sailing qualities. At the end of the day, it is still a "furniture boat"! I would race it in fun club races, but if I want serious racing I will go out on my friend's Olson 30 or some other full-on racer. Once you've raced a 30' keelboat at 13kts it's hard to go back to displacement boats.
 
#183 ·
Hey Paulo,

I looked at the site on the Capado. Did you see their V berth? That is exactly what I am talking about. And I can guarantee you that their boat looks completely different down below when the camera isn't out!

Like I have said, many times, you can do it on those kinds of boats, but there is a big tradeoff.

BTW, any pics of the down below while cruising? What about the decks? Where is their tender? Liferaft? How do they get water aboard when at anchor? Those pics looked a lot like a photo shoot... even with the Vberth stuffed with stuff.

I'm just sayin...

Brian
 
#184 ·
I like my Hybrid Racer cruiser from the 60's. Realitivly heavy for a racer, great performance for a cruiser. Best of both worlds. I just added a little 8 horse out board for tight quarters, but basically sail enginelss. I leave May 9th for Honduras and the engine will be stowed away before departure. Point being performance in light winds is crucial. My Asym. spin. is a very important part of my inventory. A guy just sailed by me in a West Sail with Tanbark sails. reefed down, club footed jib, making hull speed in 15 knots, on a running reech down Gov. cut in Miami about an hour ago, running in front of some looming heavy weather, and I gotta say I was envious. I think west Sails, or big HD double enders make great long term cruisers as well.
 
#189 ·
The Sun fast 35 locally in phrf is rated some 20+ secs a mile faster, IRC it is also rated a bit faster. The SF37 is a bit of a dog for what it should be! The SO25 is rated about the same as an SF37. Both the SO and SF 37 need a bit more SA to really reach there potential. I know of a fellow in Austrailia that took and SO 35 and added 5' to the mast, now that puppy performs!

Marty
 
#190 ·
Brian,

8 knots is pretty slow for a 40' boat, I've done that numerous times with my 25'WL boat! Even hit 11.1 water speed. Not sure what my over the ground was that day, with a upwards of 2-3 knot current, 14 knots in a 28' on deck boat, equal to a C28mkII! You has 12 more feet! hmph!


that was before the "here hold my beer watch this moment!



Marty
 
#199 ·
Marty,

You better clean those glasses off!! That ain't 8 knots. 8.1 is hull speed. That is 9.1 Baby!!!

Still, you consider 8 knots slow for a 40' cruising boat? Are you serious? SHow me a fulltime cruising boat, 40 feet, going over that or that regularly does that?? THere are some - I know that. A sabre comes to mind and a Tartan. But most FT cruisers are SLUGS and could never get close to or exceed hull speed. Believe me, for a cruising boat given what most cruising boats are, that is fast.

Big difference between my boat Marty, loaded down with cruising stuff, and yours - which you use for racing. I have kayaks on the side, a 200 lb tender flopping around on davits, a 100 pound liferaft strapped to the top, half a dozen water and diesel cans on a fender board, a diesel generator, many weeks worth of groceries, over a thousand pounds of water, 45 gallons of diesel, books, text books for the kids, all the clothes we own, guitar, legos galore, four people, a fat bulldog, etc. How much of that do you carry on your boat... especially when you race? Apples and oranges, man. Load all that on your boat, and assuming you can still crawl onboard and water isn't coming over the gunnels, lets see how fast you go!!! What will happen is this C400, with the worlds best looking male moderator, will sneak up beside you to winward, and as I douse your air, I will turn on the engine and the generator. THe diesel cloud will come over you. Then I will crank up Bob the Builder or Sesame Street or Bob the Sponge Pants as loud as it will go. Fatty will stand at the toe rail and threaten to board you (pirate style) and eat any cute little dogs if they stick their heads up out of the companionway. You will peak through the black air, coughing, holding your eardrums, tears streaming down your cheeks, then scream out loud, "CURSE YOU CD!!"

Next day, the Jenneau will be for sale and you will be shopping for a Sabre... always on the lookout to see when you can get even. (BIG LAUGH). At that point you may be able to outrun me, but don't forget, I still got Fatty - ready and waiting!!

Take care,

Brian

PS Looks like I am heading up to Washington next month. Gonna go do some sailing with mom and dad and take care of a couple of things. I think they will be in the San Juans then, but as fast as their boat goes, may take the next month for them just to back it out of the slip! Who knows with them. I won't be there long, maybe a week, but would love to catch up?
 
#192 ·
Shock,

To my knowledge there are only 4 SF35's in the states, One currently or was for sale in your area, one here in seattle, another in the GL's, and a 4th on the east coast. THere are IIRC 7 or so SF37's here in the greater salish sea area.

If you go to Jeanneau Owners Network - the best independant resource for Jeanneau Yachts and Boats worldwide you can find some performance VPP's for both, if not, I have both once I get my laptop running, or can get the files off of the harddrive into a new puter.

Marty
 
#193 ·
Wow, I didn't realize the SF35 was THAT rare! I saw the one that is on the market down south, but unfortunately we are not quite ready to take the plunge into a big budget boat yet. Who knows, by the time we are ready to buy we might have our sights set on something else, but right now the Jeanneaus check off a lot of the boxes on our wish list within our expected budget.
 
#194 ·
The SO 35 is pretty common. the SO/SF37 was/is Jeanneau's biggest actual boat number built recently, around 1200 or so. Most of the time they build 300-400 of a given hull then change the design around. Even my 86 Arcadia, while there was literally just over 600 hulls, the deck went from an arcadia, to a sundream 28, then a sun light 28 IIRC. SA is the same for the arcadia and SD, the last design was sail shortened IIRC also. All three were Castro designs.

The SO35 in that rigs Deep draft is actually a pretty good performer. OR, if you can find one of the 3-5 SO36iP's here in the salish sea, that is pretty close to the same speed potential as the SO35, quicker than the 37 models! A bit more room below also. VPP's are also at the jeanneau site for the 36iP.

Marty
 
#198 ·
I don't know, Biran. But after watching video of Team Oracle (who are now racing a hydrofoil catamaran btw) I think we can safely say that any boat with one contiguous waterline that is immersed while under way, is not a racing boat.

There's a new line been drawn in the sand. If your boot stripe stays wet, you're a cruiser.
 
#207 ·
I am beginning to think Brian is trying to talk himself out of buying a BETTER FASTER boat! Reality is, he needs to come to the dark side, ie a cruise/racer, or a peformance cruiser, not a plain old almost slower than a dead slug cruiser! A full keel would be generally speaking slower than a dead slug going backwards!

By the way brian, while you may think my boat is a racer.......a farr 30 is a racer, or a meldges 32, both of which are half the wt, with twice the sail area I have! I at least have a full stove, sink, hell, I even have a flush head! not a blinken porta potty!

Oh, You also need another 10' of boat for all that sheet you carry if you truly want performance!

Marty
 
#208 ·
There is something to be said for traveling light, when it allows you to get where you are going quickly. In the case of people who have to live on land to earn a living, having decent performance increases your range, so you can make the most of your limited cruising time.

Of course, if you have the money you can get there fast AND comfy! Imagine having this:





And still being able to do this:

 
#211 ·
...
Of course, if you have the money you can get there fast AND comfy! Imagine having this:





And still being able to do this:

A Riptide 50, beautiful boat and a very expensive one.

But you don't need such a fast boat (that needs a crew to go that fast downwind - it is not a solo based boat) to have a very fast performance boat compared with a Catalina with about the same or more interior storage space.

It is true that for that and comparing a production main market cruiser and a performance cruiser you need to go for a bigger boat (probably with the same weight) than the mass production cruiser, with some exceptions like the RM.

The boats are much better rigged and tend to be a bit more expensive but then the Catalina is also an expensive one in what regards main market and if we look at the used market than that difference is really small if any, in what regards the year of the boat.

Regarding not expensive good performance cruisers with a storage compared to the Catalina I am thinking of the 2 cabin versions of the Salona 44 or the Dufour 45:





The previous model, the Dufour 44 is around for sometime as the Salona 44 and you can get them as low as 120 000 euros for a 2008 boat (ex-charter boat), so in what regards used boats the difference will be minimal.

2008 Dufour 44 Performance Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Of course, not all need the interior space of a a Catalina 400 for cruising. Most that cruise don't live permanently with the family on a boat and many are just couples most of the time and that makes the needed storage a lot less demanding.

For me, a well designed 38ft performance cruiser will be enough in what regards storage. Some will be happy with smaller boats and rarely couples need more than the space offered by a 40ft performance cruisers...but then they can always buy bigger.

Regards

Paulo
 
#209 ·
I have not had a chance to read all of the posts in this thread yet but I will make some time later to catch up.

In response to CD's original post I would just say that I think that a lot of the difference between long distance full time cruisers is in their need for creature comfort, and that makes a big difference in what boat you end up with.

Some people come at cruising from living in a house and my opinion is that they tend to think of a boat as a really small version of a modern suburban home. They've always had air conditioning, refrigeration, hot water, etc, and so the perfect boat that they imagine for themselves has all of these things in miniature. That means they are going to end up with a complex boat that has to be pretty big to hold everything.

Other people come at cruising from different directions, camping, for example, or from living in an RV, or they grew up on boats, and many of those people have completely different expectations about what creature comforts are necessary for long term cruising. You don't miss air conditioning if you've never had it, and many people don't mind carrying water jugs around instead of using a water maker, so their boats can be a lot less complex and they don't have to compromise as much on speed, for example.

Our species lived for 200 thousand years in the tropics without air conditioning. :)
 
#213 · (Edited)
FWIW, I think that the answer to CD's original question lies with his orginal post:

Next, lets define racer/performance/HD. My idea of a performance boat is a boat that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions. These are the typical conditions a cruiser will set off in, not necessarily the conditions they will see. Lets say these conditions are 15-20 kts sustained. A boat that cannot reach hull speed at these numbers is what I would define as a HD (heavy displacement cruiser... though I can think of a few more metaphors!). A boat that goes well over hull speed in 15-20, or in less than 15 sustained, I would define as a racer.
With that definition in mind, the difference between "cruising" and "racing" in any boat of any size you care to mention is nothing other than: weight. ie. Safe, comfortable, long-term cruising requires being able to carry lots of "stuff". High-performance, short-term racing requires getting rid of lots of "stuff".

Therefore, to work out whether or not a particular boat will work for you requires first off, working out the weight of all the "stuff" (people, food, bikes, tvs, laptops, coffee mugs, etc.) you intend to take along with you and, with that number, working out precisely how large a boat you need to carry that weight whilst still maintaining whatever performance you're wanting for where you're going. This is exactly the way ancient explorers like Cook tackled the same problem.

Crunching the numbers, you'll quickly find that the reason why so many typical cruising yachts are HD is simply because they are designed to carry the maximum amount of stuff in the minimum size (capital cost)... and that to maintain greater-than-hull-speed performance from a racer whilst carrying the same amount of stuff requires something looking very much like a superyacht. :)
 
#215 · (Edited)
FWIW, I think that the answer to CD's original question lies with his orginal post:

With that definition in mind, the difference between "cruising" and "racing" in any boat of any size you care to mention is nothing other than: weight. ie. Safe, comfortable, long-term cruising requires being able to carry lots of "stuff". High-performance, short-term racing requires getting rid of lots of "stuff".

Therefore, to work out whether or not a particular boat will work for you requires first off, working out the weight of all the "stuff" (people, food, bikes, tvs, laptops, coffee mugs, etc.) you intend to take along with you and, with that number, working out precisely how large a boat you need to carry that weight whilst still maintaining whatever performance you're wanting for where you're going. This is exactly the way ancient explorers like Cook tackled the same problem.

Crunching the numbers, you'll quickly find that the reason why so many typical cruising yachts are HD is simply because they are designed to carry the maximum amount of stuff in the minimum size (capital cost)... and that to maintain greater-than-hull-speed performance from a racer whilst carrying the same amount of stuff requires something looking very much like a superyacht. :)
Hartley there are not many cruising yachts with high displacement, except old ones. Today they are very rare.

What defines a performance cruising boat is not " that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions". Most modern cruising boat can do that, including a Catalina 400. What defines a performance cruiser is that he is capable of doing that with a lot less wind than a non performance cruiser.

Regarding carrying load Bob Perry explained already that the ability to carry load has not to do with the weight of the boat and even if nobody in his right mind would want to put unnecessary weight on a fast boat, the chances are that even carrying all the load the heavy boat carries, the performance cruiser would be faster than the Heavy weight, being both boats the same length.

Off course that would depend on the boat hull shape but normally modern boats are beamier than older boats and that contributes for the loading capacity.

Regards

Paulo
 
#214 ·
Seems to be a consensus that weight carrying ability and storage space and fuel/water capacity are meaningful to cruisers of all strips. Still, within that genre that are faster and slower vessels. Boats that are more or less comfortable. Boat that are easier or harder to maintain and to sail. The other side of expense is what you do once you get there. Many will want to get off the boat- take a long hot shower and go do their laundry then go to a restaurant. Others go to places where that's just not feasible or they deem it undesireable and would rather choose if,when and why they leave their boat. Personally, I like the concept of being self contained and self reliant. I like the idea of living on my boat and venturing forth when it suits my fancy. Not out of need.If you feel more secure,at ease and comfortable (e.g. "at home") on your boat than on land you are on the right cruisng boat for you.
 
#216 · (Edited)
... The other side of expense is what you do once you get there. Many will want to get off the boat- take a long hot shower and go do their laundry then go to a restaurant.

Others go to places where that's just not feasible or they deem it undesireable and would rather choose if,when and why they leave their boat. Personally, I like the concept of being self contained and self reliant. I like the idea of living on my boat and venturing forth when it suits my fancy. ....
I have showed you that your idea that only your type of boat can cruise extensively or voyaging and all lighter performance cruisers are marina boats, day sailers or week end cruisers and unable to travel to far places makes no sense because they are out there doing what you say they cannot do.

I have posted repeatedly about sailors that are doing that on those boats, I have posted about a very light and fast Fox 10.20 that is finishing a circumnavigation, about a First 40.7 cruising the Antarctic and continuing the circumnavigation against the prevailing winds (they went cruising on the Pacific), about two guys doing a circumnavigation (cruising) on a 22ft mini racer, a full family with two kids circumnavigating on a 40class racer and I could go on. These are only some of the more evident cases that proves you wrong in assuming those boats cannot do that.

They are out there, they are cruising on the boats you say that cannot do it. Those boats can do it because they are doing it:D

They certainly don't do it the same way you do it. They do it faster and in a more spartan way and would not like to do it with more "comfort" on a slower loaded no fun sailing boat.

Why is this so difficult to understand? It is all a question of pleasure and lifestyle. Different sailors have pleasure with different things even if both are cruising. The boats used by different kinds of sailors reflects those different tastes and compromises, even when they are cruising or voyaging on or to the same places.

Regards

Paulo
 
#217 · (Edited)
Paulo- With all due respect as far as I know nobody ( self included) has said you can't you it. It is self evident you can do it. Question is do you want to do it. My boat and many others ( Hylas, Passport, Morris, HR etc.) will gve VMGs above hull speed for days on end. ( my boat's polar is above hull speed in anything above12kt true).Give the thrill of sailing a fast boat well but also pamper you underway and at anchor.I try to not live my life in a testosterone storm and I ( like many) am secure enough that I don't feel the need to be competitive in every venue of my life. I respect your view of boats and life - it is not my own. After exposure to type of boat you keep mentioning my boss said "I don't want to live like that". Why can't you respect that decision and stop beating a dead horse. I get it and think the others on this thread are knowledgeable enough to get it as well.
 
#218 · (Edited)
Paulo- With all due respect as far as I know nobody ( self included) has said you can't you it. It is self evident you can do it. Question is do you want to do it.
That is also self evident. They do it because they want to do it and they like to do it that way.

My boat and many others ( Hylas, Passport, Morris, HR etc.) ...Give the thrill of sailing a fast boat well but also pamper you underway and at anchor.I try to not live my life in a testosterone storm and I ( like many) am secure enough that I don't feel the need to be competitive in every venue of my life. I respect your view of boats and life - it is not my own. After exposure to type of boat you keep mentioning my boss said "I don't want to live like that". Why can't you respect that decision and stop beating a dead horse. I get it and think the others on this thread are knowledgeable enough to get it as well.
The boats I have talked about are not necessarily the ones I would chose to do it and that is the case with all the boats I have mentioned on the previous post. I mentioned them not because they represent my way of cruising but because those were the types of boats that more clearly fit on the types you where implying that they would not be able to travel to distant shores or cruise extensively. Some of them are extreme examples. They are not the type of boat that I would chose but they are obviously the types of boats that some would chose and prefer.

You are kind of inverting things:D: it is not me that does consider that any given type of boat, except the one I own, is inadequate to cruise or voyaging or that all that like to go a lot faster than you, because it gives them pleasure, are only doing that on a competitive basis or testosterone thing. That does not make sense if they wanted to compete they would be racing not cruising.

The insistence on the speed of your boat makes not sense also. Yes, there are slower boats and yes there are faster boats. What is your point: Is that the Outbound 44 has the perfect balance between speed and comfort to all? I guess so and that is the problem: Some would like to have a more heavier and slower boats, some would want a faster and more sportive and enjoyable boat to sail. That's obvious otherwise there would not be an offer of those boats and all would be cruising in boats like the outbound.

Regards

Paulo
 
#219 ·
Ok- you win. One of the points I was inelegantly trying to make is there is enjoyment in sailing any boat well. Had great fun sailing a Tayana for may years which you would consider a double ended slug. Trimmed well she was a joy. Could walk away from the wheel ( with no brake on and no vane or autopilot) and she would just get it done. Had great fun sailing a racing tri. To me the enjoyment is usng what ever vessel you're on to it's capabilities. When cruising to get the most out of the day. What drives me nuts is seeing a gorgeous boat struggling through- being sailed poorly putting unecessary wear on it's crew and equipment.
P.S. re read my posts. Don't see where I made those implications you ascribe to me. If so my bad.
 
#222 ·
Ok- you win. One of the points I was inelegantly trying to make is there is enjoyment in sailing any boat well. Had great fun sailing a Tayana for may years which you would consider a double ended slug. ....
I don't see how you take that conclusion. I never sailed a Tayana but they have a very good reputation as cruising boats and certainly will make happy many sailors.

Regarding sailing slow boats and enjoying them, I owned for many years a 80 years traditional boat and I sure enjoyed sailing the boat and being able to do so without any winch. In fact much more difficult than sailing a modern boat but also that difficulty contributed to the fun of it.

That has being my point all the time: There are not a perfect cruising boat and what one calls perfect depends on what gives more pleasure to each sailor and that varies has much as all boats that are used for cruising, from very fast boats to heavy displacement boats.

It was not me that was defending a given type of cruising boat as the perfect cruising boat quite the contrary.

regards

Paulo
 
#223 · (Edited)
...
"I sure like my boat."
Paulo, "No you don't And I'll tell you why."
Funny how you can misinterpret me :D

What I have said all the time is that no doubt the Catalina 40 is the perfect cruiser for Brian, the Outbound 44 the perfect cruiser for Outbound, the Boreal 44 the perfect cruiser for Steve, the Pogo 12,50, the perfect cruiser for Eric, the Opium 39 the perfect cruiser for Anders and for Nemier the perfection in what regards cruising is a big fast cat (Outremer 49) but there is not a perfect cruiser for all and I am quite sure that Eric would not like the Outbound 44 and the Outbound" would not like Eric's Pogo and so on.

Contrary of what you use to do, these are real guys and members of this forum, all very satisfied with their (very different) cruising boats.

Bob what I have been saying, contrary to Outbound and Brian, is that there is not a perfect cruising boat for all and that some like to cruise in very fast boats, other like to cruise in heavy boats and in the middle there are for all tastes;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#224 ·
Paulo:
I didn't "misinterpret" you. I was just taking a gentle poke at you with my now almost famous "stick". I was having a little fun.

Besides I needed to lash out at sombody. Outbound called my Tayana 37 a "slug". On the other hand, he said he could get it to balance so maybe I'd better pay attention to him.
 
#225 · (Edited)
Bob I was poking fun at Paulo. I loved my Tayana. It taught me to sail, gave me courage when I had none left. It warmed my body and my soul. Some of the best days of my life were on that boat- the first Hippocampus. That was a boat that sailed well, balanced beautifully and was a graceful lady in all weathers. Kind of vessel that truly took care of you if you just gave her a little love. Bob you made many people very happy with that design.
Once again Paulo why don't you read my posts or Brian's. I still don't think either of us said there is a perfect cruisers for everyone. In fact I would and have stood proud and have argued the opposite when you in your various posts have implied there is.
"Boats that are not enjoyable to sail" etc.Who says so. I can't tell what will make some people happy. I'm tinkled pink when I can figure out what makes me happy and besides myself when I can make the Admiral pleased let alone happy. Find it doesn't help to be judgmental. Learn more from listening with an open mind.
Guess like when you tell me you can train to curcumvent sleep deprivation we see the world differently
P.S.- I think I said I thought Paulo would consider the Tayana a slug. I turned some good days on that boat and she had a great ride in the chop we see in the N.E.
 
#226 · (Edited)
....
Once again Paulo why don't you read my posts or Brian's. I still don't think either of us said there is a perfect cruisers for everyone. ...
No, only said, implied and sustained that fast performance cruisers were unable to cruise to faraway places. That those boats are not an option to any serious cruiser and that means they are not the perfect cruiser for anybody...and yet they are for some even for long range cruising.

Guess like when you tell me you can train to curcumvent sleep deprivation we see the world differently
..
It is not curcumvent (whatever that means) sleep deprivation, it is sleep management and I had not said I could do that, I said that can be trained.

All solo sailors do and work on that and it is a very useful thing to learn even if you sail with your wife. You never know when you are going to need to be on hatch more time than what you have anticipated. If you do not train that you are going to be exhausted where a sailor that can manage sleep will have a much bigger resilience.

Singlehanded sailing sleep management | Trade Winds Solo Round Britain Challenge

Regards

Paulo
 
#227 ·
Paulo- I'm a board certified sleep physician. Guess on the othe thread I misinterpreted what you said. Spend part of my professional life training various folks in sleep management. Also am fairly aware of the effects of sleep deprivation. Have spent many hours studing this in detail and aware of its effects. Perhaps you may wish to discuss this off line.
 
#228 ·
Certainly I like always to learn. You mean training sleep management for a healthy life or for specific situations like solo sailing?

I guess that would be a pity to share that knowledge in private and I bet there are lot's of sailors interested. Why don't you open a thread about that, I mean sleep management for solo sailing? I would be more than interested in participating and learning:)

Regards

Paulo
 
#229 · (Edited)
Paulo- On another thread I gently tried to point out I was concerned there may be health risks to this activity. There is an area of the brain called the supra chiasmic nucleus (SCN). It sets the circadian rhythm of your entire body. Both simple things like core body temperature, autonomic tone, hormone release and more complicated things like cognition and immune function. It in turn responds to "time givers" such as the tract (not involved in vision) which goes directly to this area from the retina. Activity and eating also feed into it. All cells ( even in bacteria or worms) have per and clock genes. The function of the SCN is to see all our cells are working in concert. If either by choice ( sailing) or demand (shift work or torture) the function of the SCN is disturbed there would seem to be a risk of significant health consequences ( such as the increased risk of cancer in shift workers). Interrupted sleep disturbs the circadian rhythm. The normal functions of sleep for the brain and body do not normally occur.Simply stated fragmented sleep is not of the same quality nor benefit as a normal sleep period inside a normal circadian rhythm. Again in my first post concerning this I expressed an concern that the repetitive disturbance of sleep associated with certain activities may have health effects. I'm unaware of literature concening sailing in this regard and would think an epidemiologic study to quantify the effects if any might be problematic. I'm aware of mechanisms to mitigate the short term effects of sleep disturbance and allow people to recognize these effects to ward against untoward behaviors as a consequence. But as a physician I think it would do the topic and the reader a disservice to engage in the activity you propose as it would give it short shrift and run the risk of not furthering health and well being. Hence, with all due respect decline your invitation
 
#230 · (Edited)
Fair enough and I think you are right on a permanent basis or even on a regular basis but that is not something you are going to use on a regular basis.

I know of some studies and I think it would give an interesting thread. I din't have the time to do it right now (I am almost leaving for cruising) but when I come back in October we will discuss that in a thread. I think it is a very interesting topic.

The studies and improvements that took place in what regards sleep management and solo racing are huge. I remember that 15 years ago it was vulgar the racers on the Vendee Globe having hallucinations and break downs due to sleep deprivation. Today all are trained and accompanied by physicians and there are no cases of hallucinations anymore or physical break down and you even so on the last race, after almost 3 months on those conditions, the two leading racers fighting for victory as if it was a match race, not for one or two days, but for 15 days. You could tell by their daily video broadcasts that they were in good shape and not near break down.

I don't want to learn about that for doing it for 3 months. I guess some days would be enough for me. In fact what I have learned through the years reading about that and how that should be done have improved me already as a sailor and I can feel that I manage much better my sleep needs while voyaging. The objective of sleep management is not being sleep deprived or tired and that does not mean doing that forever, but for a short period of time.

Regards

Paulo
 
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