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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > quality, where have you gone?
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Thread: quality, where have you gone? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-11-2007 04:14 PM
Goodnewsboy Laws contrived by legitimately elected legislatures are bad enough. Those written by unaccountable bureaucrats are often senseless tyranny.

I've gone afield from the original discussion of build quality, but only to say that more government regulation is unlikely to help very much.

One of our favorite and most useful boats is a 1950's Lyman 15 foot outboard. It was built principally of fir marine plywood on a production line to sell for a low price. (In their peak year, Lyman shipped some 5000 hulls.) It is still as solid as the day it left Lyman Boat Works and is powered by a similarly old Johnson manual start motor that usually runs at first pull. I submit that regulations imposed since its building could not have improved this simple, rugged and shapely vessel.

I also agree with Pigslo that "quality" has to be judged in terms of adequacy in light of the price asked.
01-11-2007 03:08 PM
pigslo I do not support government interference as they tend to screw things up. Somewhere in between anyone with the money and big bureaucracy is a program that will keep the idiots off the water. How many times have I seen a cigarette boat doing 50 knots in the channel and laughing at smallboats that are nearly capsized? How many times have I had to alter my starboard tack to miss an oncoming sailboat that thinks because theirs is bigger I should move? Just the basic rulles of the water and a bit of respect would be nice to be taught.
As for build quality, nothing is ever built for long that the market will not support...nothing!
pigslo
01-11-2007 02:36 PM
Giulietta They were returning home, after fishing all night, and needed to pass near an area off the beach that has low water depth, in order to enter the harbour of Nazaré (see here http://marinas.com/view/marina/11576, thanks sailor"!!!).

Most man were sleeping, when a freak wave hit them and threw some of the nets and stuff to sea, which was jammed into propeller.

The boat then became uncontrolled and rolled into beach. Now we know waves at the beach were 15' high, in surf area.

Accident happened at 7am, still dark.

By the way, these were professionals of the sea, not people like us that go to sea for fun, they have to go to feed their families. They go when you and I stay home watching movies. They do fishing school for years. Poor guys didn't even have time to get to their safety gear. Well That is life.

The last acident with fishing people dead, in portugal was 2 years ago.

Accidents with non professionals is very very rare over here.
01-11-2007 02:26 PM
Goodnewsboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giulietta

Here I think we are doing good. You simply can't go to sea without a "driving license" appropriate to your boat size, type and distance from port.

The courses are hard, to very hard, some take 6 months and a lot of exams, but in the end its good, because it reduces the amount of idiots out at sea without qualifications.

So here, we score positive.
Hi Giu:

If you will permit me the use of an old Maine expression;

If all these courses are required, howinell did a Portugese fishing boat recently run up on the beach in the surf line and lose its crew?
01-11-2007 02:15 PM
Giulietta Its GIU, not GUI!!
01-11-2007 02:11 PM
longwaterline The post from GUI... is exactly right which is why I believe and have bought boats that were built from 1982 to around 1992 where the object was not to build high priced cheap floating condos and w/o the useless certifications, even if you need to put in some time and money to update things.
01-11-2007 02:08 PM
Giulietta
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnewsboy

I confidently predict that the same nightmare of ridiculous regulation described by Giuletta is coming our way.
Well my post was more oriented towards boat construction certification BS.

But actually, you will be surprized that in Portugal (and most of Europe), we actually have to have Skipper licences (several levels, depending of size of boat and destination), that vary from local, sportsman, basic Skipper, Sail and motor boat, Coastal and Oceanic.

In fact when I was 16 I had to go to marine school for 3 months to get my skipper permit only to be able to sail my 470 within 3 miles from my sailing club!!

Here I think we are doing good. You simply can't go to sea without a "driving license" appropriate to your boat size, type and distance from port.

The courses are hard, to very hard, some take 6 months and a lot of exams, but in the end its good, because it reduces the amount of idiots out at sea without qualifications.

So here, we score positive.
01-11-2007 02:05 PM
sailingdog Giulietta-

Let me elaborate. The real reason that there is such a prevalent market for 30-year-old boats is that the prices of modern boats of quality construction is astronomical. An Alberg 30 can be gotten for under $25,000 in excellent condition, and needing fairly little work to make it bluewater capable.

Contrast that with a modern 30' boat, like a Jeanneau SunOdyssey 29.2 is going to cost you over $100,000 and won't be anywhere near as ready for bluewater use. A 2005 Pacific Seacraft 31 is going to be $178,000, but almost ready to go out of the box. A 2000 Island Packet 320 is going to cost $150,000.
01-11-2007 01:50 PM
Goodnewsboy Further to Giuletta's burst vein:

I recently completed the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) boat safety course and exam which is now required in some states as a threshhold requirement for operating a vessel on state waters.

I learned that:

The first two items, preceding any reference to life jackets, etc., on the "Safe Boater's (I maintain that a boater is a hat.) Checklist" are:
Do you have your "boater education card?
Do you have your boat registration?

I also learned that what I previously knew as an inboard-outdrive is really a "stern drive", presumably to distinguish it from all those bow drives out there.

Some material wasn't bad. They do cover very elementary rules of the road. A great deal is bureaucratic nonsense.

I confidently predict that the same nightmare of ridiculous regulation described by Giuletta is coming our way.
01-11-2007 12:31 PM
wind_magic My thought is that what they are doing is making boats the way people seem to want them. What I mean is that if you just forget about the cost in $us for a moment and think in terms of "having", it might be a different picture. Pick a time, let's say 1960 .. I wasn't around then, but some of you may have been! Say your father (or you) worked, had a house, a car, and a boat ... and that's really all your family could afford were those things. How about now, forgetting how much "more" everyone thinks they are making now ... if you are a mature adult male, and you work, and have a family, you buy a house at today's prices, and a car, ... if the only other thing you were able to afford is a boat, wouldn't you be able to buy a quality boat if you wanted one ?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think that the problem is that people have so much more money than they used to have and that boat manufacturers are building things so much more cheaply, it's that people basically have the same purchasing power that they've always had ... but instead of wanting a small house that is well built, they want a god sized mansion that is built like ****, and they want a god awful sized boat that is just as shitty. It's an expectations thing, they'd rather something look high quality than actually BE high quality. And they aren't satisified with a high quality (yet smaller) home, a high quality (yet more "expensive") boat, etc ... instead they want the boat, three suv's, the rv, two shitty built houses, 4 wheel atv's, jet ski, motorcycle, and anything else they can get their hands on, all built as cheaply and inexpensively as possible, and all on credit. Everyone wants to look like they're the damn Prince of Newark or something no matter what it takes, instead of just buying a small well built house, a car, and a well built boat, with cash, and having money to live on after you quit working.
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