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Is Sailing Sexist?

57K views 358 replies 90 participants last post by  wmartin78758 
#1 ·
I just reviewed a book with a title that made me think- Joy Smith's "The Perfect First Mate- A Woman's Guide to Recreational Boating"

Dock Six Chronicles: Book Reviewsday Tuesday: Bad Title, Better Book

I thought the book had some great information, but the title kind of stuck in my craw: Why not title it "The Perfect Boat Owner"? I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?
 
#83 ·
Sexism is self-perpetuating.

I read the example above of how one felt dismissed because a man was asked the same question that a women just answered. It could have been dismissive. However, the first thought that went through my mind is buddies that will continually ask me the same question, they would then ask the dog, a stranger or just talk to the piling. They often don't accept anyone's answer or just want to talk about the topic.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If you want to see sexism, it will remain.
 
#85 ·
Ya know, I'm not so sure that sailing is sexist, where else can a women step foot aboard and immediately become ***ADMIRAL***

Wait, you may be right!!, it is sexist!! Well just kiss my a$$ from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard,dead! Niedermeyer... oops, sorry, got caught up in the moment:eek:
 
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#86 ·
Isn’t “Whenever I've had new sailing friends (couples) on the boat, the Women are the better helmsmen(person). seems the gals have a better touch on the wheel, something about finesse I guess. The guys want to muscle it and drive all over creation. I'll take a gal at the wheel any day.” a little sexist statement in its own right?:D

Mrs. B and I jointly own all the boats we’ve bought since our nuptials. We both appear on all the paperwork. The club membership is in my name (why pay double the dues?). Mrs. B is very familiar with all the boat systems (sometimes too familiar!) She is not a string puller and helms for personal enjoyment. Yes, she hands the helm to me during sea and anchor details and when the wind pipes up, and during nighttime… But she does this for enjoyment and not to prove anything (she already has about 1,000 open ocean miles on her resume). I need you female sailnetters to write her a stern letter and make her do all the things she personally doesn’t like to do for the sake of saving me from appearing sexist.:rolleyes:
 
#88 ·
Here's another example along the lines of the winches being geared for an average man's strength and are thus a little heavy for an average woman.

Yesterday I got a Mustang MD3184 inflatable PDF with harness (happy birthday to me!). According to the manual "The harness is designed to be worn by persons at least 5 feet 5 inches tall."

I'm guessing 90% of men are over 5' 5", but maybe 50% of women. My wife is only 5' 0", so she'd have to wear a separate PFD and harness if she were going to clip in. Not that this is horrible, but it's just one more little thing that women have to put up with that men never think about. As they say, privilege is invisible to those who have it.
 
#90 ·
I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?
Absolutely. In a world where my wife or daughter will make on average, 75 cents to the dollar I'll make, doing the same task, how could the world of sailing possibly escape?

But those are salary averages. Fortunately, each person is different in regards to sexism, and can help to make the world in general(and sailing as well), less sexist.

Due simply to the archaic sexist title, no one ought to buy that book.
 
#91 ·
I don't know. A few people have mentioned this thought of men being more understanding, accommodating, or helping women overcome sexism in some way, and I don't think men can be as big a part of that as some might think.

DeniseO wrote, "Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had."

Would a man ever write "Many women thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues" ? I don't think so, I think a man would just stick his thumb in your eye and tell you to pound sand, even the idea of wanting to be accepted for who you are and have the world be a more accommodating place is more of a feminine idea than it is masculine (traditionally)

I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?

DeniseO also wrote, "It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation." and I think that is a big part of it.

To that I would respond that as DeniseO also said, women are often the problem as much as men, but because of that I think it might be fair to say that women are ultimately the WHOLE problem, because is it really a man's responsibility to fix this ? Isn't that part of the problem, that a woman might wait for a man to fix everything ?

Even allowing a man to be in a position to decide that a woman will or won't be treated fairly is allowing him being in charge. Someone above (I forget who, and I paraphrase for effect) said that on his boat the women are encouraged to do this and that, to take the helm, etc ... isn't that the whole problem, no matter what she's doing, he's still the one in charge! He's still making the decisions, what if he woke up tomorrow and decided he didn't like how it was going and started making different decisions, or what if the man wasn't sexist 99.99% of the time but still was sexist the 0.01% of the time that it actually mattered ?

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this except that I don't think a woman's problem is a man when it comes to sexism, no matter how she might be treated. They call it "taking charge" because it is TAKEN, not because it is given, and men who put themselves in charge don't wait around for it they just do it, it is as much about independence and daring as anything.

Zeehag, DeniseO, and others get respect here from men and women alike, that's a simple fact. They are independent people and I don't think any man here would believe for a moment that their strings are being pulled by anyone. No man gave them that right to be independent, I'm sure they just woke up one day and took it, the same as anyone in command of their own boat, and that's how it works no matter who you are.
 
#94 ·
I don't know. A few people have mentioned this thought of men being more understanding, accommodating, or helping women overcome sexism in some way, and I don't think men can be as big a part of that as some might think.

DeniseO wrote, "Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had."

Would a man ever write "Many women thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues" ? I don't think so, I think a man would just stick his thumb in your eye and tell you to pound sand, even the idea of wanting to be accepted for who you are and have the world be a more accommodating place is more of a feminine idea than it is masculine (traditionally)

I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?

DeniseO also wrote, "It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation." and I think that is a big part of it.

To that I would respond that as DeniseO also said, women are often the problem as much as men, but because of that I think it might be fair to say that women are ultimately the WHOLE problem, because is it really a man's responsibility to fix this ? Isn't that part of the problem, that a woman might wait for a man to fix everything ?

Even allowing a man to be in a position to decide that a woman will or won't be treated fairly is allowing him being in charge. Someone above (I forget who, and I paraphrase for effect) said that on his boat the women are encouraged to do this and that, to take the helm, etc ... isn't that the whole problem, no matter what she's doing, he's still the one in charge! He's still making the decisions, what if he woke up tomorrow and decided he didn't like how it was going and started making different decisions, or what if the man wasn't sexist 99.99% of the time but still was sexist the 0.01% of the time that it actually mattered ?

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this except that I don't think a woman's problem is a man when it comes to sexism, no matter how she might be treated. They call it "taking charge" because it is TAKEN, not because it is given, and men who put themselves in charge don't wait around for it they just do it, it is as much about independence and daring as anything.

Zeehag, DeniseO, and others get respect here from men and women alike, that's a simple fact. They are independent people and I don't think any man here would believe for a moment that their strings are being pulled by anyone. No man gave them that right to be independent, I'm sure they just woke up one day and took it, the same as anyone in command of their own boat, and that's how it works no matter who you are.
You said it much better than I could.. Not to call out Denise, but when I read her post my first impression was that it highlighted the inherent differences between men and women.

Stereotypes exist because they have a basis in fact and reality. The problem arises when you discriminate against an individual because of general stereotypes. It does not mean the general stereotypes are not accurate.
 
#95 ·
I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?
Show me a game where there's two sets of rules. The only possible example i can think of is golf, where there are two sets of tees, which doesn't mean ****e if you can't putt.

Look, I get the whole big picture "take" vs. "give" argument, but why should one sex have to take what has been given to the other sex for free, simply for having a pulse, like the right to vote or equal pay for equal work?
 
#92 ·
The existence of sexism isn't debatable. It's undisputable fact, like racism. But that doesn't say an individual is sexist or not. And sexism goes both ways. I don't like being stereotyped by my gender. But sexism is primarily aimed at women.

In the context of the OP, I again can't see how sailing would escape the effects of sexism. The title, which many women I know, would resent as stereotypical, is proof.
 
#93 ·
Sexism most definitely exists. So does competition. Survival of the fittest is natural evolution or do we believe we can think that way? Big vs small, strong vs weak, dominant vs submissive. These apply woman to woman as well as man to woman. Its all too convenient and overgeneralized to suggest its all sexism. Every woman that I know that has made the same effort to learn to sail as I did, is at least as good at it. Those that haven't are not, and I'm having trouble attributing that simply to gender bias. Any man who has taken the back seat or made less effort is just as far behind the curve.

The book title is out of line.
 
#96 ·
There is not a woman among the 1100 people that work for me that isn't paid exactly what a male is paid for doing the same job, with the same experience.

There are many women that take lesser paying jobs because they have more flexibility to get kids off the bus, etc. A male in that job gets paid the same. In at least one case, its the same job, but she only works 4 days per week, so she gets 80% of the pay for the job.

Some of the comparisons are flawed. So, on average, the higher paying jobs probably have more men in them, but not at all exclusively. The women are paid the same, if they are doing the same job. In my last senior hire, I intentionally said it would be nice to have another woman on the team. Of the qualified applicants, they were 5 to 1, male. I hired a woman because she was the best of them. If she wasn't, I wouldn't have.

Anecdotally, we had a female that was the President of one of our subsidiaries. Men got along fine with her, but always watched their backs. Women hated her.

Want another? I know of a woman on a board of directors that fails to show up for most meetings. The only reason she hasn't been fired is because they are concerned over not finding another woman for the seat. True story.
 
#99 ·
There are many women that take lesser paying jobs because they have more flexibility to get kids off the bus, etc.
Which is a great example of sexism- why is it HER job to pick up the kids off the bus? Why does SHE have to take time off work? Even in households where incomes are equal, and where both parties have hour flexibility, it usual does fall to the wife to take time off to pick up the kids, etc.

It's our knee-jerk response to say "No,I'm not sexist, it's just...." - but we are. It may not be overt or intentional, but we are. I'm guilty of it. And i get called on it. It just strikes me that our nautical world is more accepting of sexism than the world at large, maybe because it is a predominantly male environment.
 
#98 ·
Okay, so let's get back to sailing. Minnewaska, earlier you mention that it is no big deal for your wife to be on the bow handling the anchor, because you have a power windlass so there is no sexism in the roles...
...how about before you had a windlass- were you on the bow heaving and hauling, or were you stroking the throttle?
 
#103 ·
Well, this thread got my attention. Personally I don't think the question should be "is sailing sexist" but instead should be "why should I give a flying flip if it's sexist?" Nobody is stopping me from buying a boat and filling that hole in the water with lots of my hard-earned money, so who cares if the guy at the marina assumes my husband is the captain? Although for the record, I've never had the sense anyone at our marina sees me as anything but an equal.

When I was in high school and my friends told me the boys don't like smart girls, I graduated top of my class anyway. When my male co-worker said he'd never work for a woman, I earned the manager position anyway--and lo and behold, he actually would work for a woman! My husband is physically-challenged so I'm the deck monkey and as middle-aged and out of shape as I am, I can still wrestle everything into submission. One of the things I love about sailing is the sense of community, that we're all looking out for each other, and it doesn't matter whether that help comes from a man or a woman if it means your bow is saved from leaving a dent in the dock.

Peace & Equality.
 
#110 ·
Minnewaska, relax. When you use personal examples and personal anecdotes you open yourself up to scrutiny. If you and/or your positions can't stand scrutiny, or you don't have the tools or skills to defend them successfully, don't slam the guy on the other side of the debate.

After all, not all of us can always win- life isn't always fair, right?

Thanks for the last word.
 
#113 ·
My experience has been that MEN are the majority. And SOME boats/owners/crew are patronizing towards women crew. Hot stuff race boats are more often than not the culprits here. Sometimes this gets better once the female has proved herself.
Other boats, (mine, most of the people I hang w/) aren't like this; if you know what you're doing, then you've got a job. I'm not going to step in and "help the little girl" grind/tail/etc. unless she's doing it wrong. But that applies to anyone.
Admiral is more than willing to take on galley duty, but only b/c sometimes that's what's needed and she can do it well. I also try to get her to do as much of the actual sailing as possible; she stood watch at night, offshore by herself! Okay, I was sleeping in the cockpit, but still....
Bottom line is if a woman wants to sail and has the desire she'll find a boat that will take her on as an equal. Just don't get offended when we whiz off the stern.
 
#114 ·
How are winches and handles designed for men?

If you go to the sore they come in different sizes. So pik the size that's appropriate for you. Also pick a boat that you can handle. An average woman weighs about 160 these days? No, kidding. An average sailing woman weighs maybe 125? To a man's 175 and is 6 inches shorter? Than she doesn't new as big of a boat. Her clothes are smaller so weigh less, she new less calories so less food storage. Smaller boat. Less forces in the sail, easier to use the winches.
 
#116 ·
How are winches and handles designed for men?

If you go to the sore they come in different sizes. So pik the size that's appropriate for you. Also pick a boat that you can handle. An average woman weighs about 160 these days? No, kidding. An average sailing woman weighs maybe 125? To a man's 175 and is 6 inches shorter? Than she doesn't new as big of a boat. Her clothes are smaller so weigh less, she new less calories so less food storage. Smaller boat. Less forces in the sail, easier to use the winches.
In my own defense, I did say designed for men, but I thought it was obvious that I meant that the default winches installed on a production boat were ones that were designed for men. Reading what I wrote I admit it may have not been obvious to everyone.
 
#115 ·
the most difficult thing I've encountered with other women on my boat is getting them to understand "low gear" is the other way she's cranking and that it doesn't have to go around in a full circle. Once a girl gets it "look out guys" is what I say!
 
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#117 ·
rodlmao.

all this pukky about smaller bs...bs bs bs bs....

in order to get thru a glass ceiling, which is what women do the days, as everything except home ec and nursing and teaching are man jobs, wear a helmet with a pointy top and jump high. it works....the glass breaks and you have your experience.

if i can do this with bad hands in a 41 ft formosa, ANYONE can do it...
doesnt need a smaller boat---gotta laugh some more on that posting---

and WHO is the small man who said we are smaller than .....rodlmao.....i am prolly bigger than you are--

there are small female sailors who are stronger than many men, and there are large women in sailboats who are waaaayyy stronger than many men---is not a strength contest--is like the glass ceiling----women face glass ceilings all the time and still win....jst get a sharper spike on that helmet---

as women have better reflexes than do men, have better eyesight than do most men, and the other lil things that make us special--and dont forget the weight lifting---men get guts from drinking--women get guts from carrying around big heavy things they push out into the world after 9 months....
and women can multitask, whereas most males cannot-----

who cares who picks up the kids after school--i made mine walk home...he is a boy--he can handle it..lol...i walked home from school--no reason my kid shouldnt also walk home from school...alone. good thing he is 40 and i dont have to go there anymore..i have a brother in law who is a bohunk---cannot do anything but is gorgeous--exactly what my sister wished for--a stay at home dad, aka, mr mom.

we can argue forever on the benefits of being a woman vs being a male----rodlmao.....

but--we be sailing, and we rock.....yes , sailing, sports car racing, and some other stuff are sexist by design. is all good--is why we have those spikey helmets.....

anyone can do anything that indvidual wants to do. is a beautiful world....


so, did i get the last word?????
 
#118 ·
....as women have better reflexes than do men, have better eyesight than do most men, and the other lil things that make us special--and dont forget the weight lifting---men get guts from drinking--women get guts from carrying around big heavy things they push out into the world after 9 months....
and women can multitask, whereas most males cannot-----

so, did i get the last word?????
I highly doubt you will with such obviously sexist comments as these. :)
 
#127 ·
A smiley with a tongue. Maybe she thought you were tainting her.

What's laughable about smaller people getting smaller boats? Just because some woman are bigger most are not. If I weighed 300 pounds I would need a bigger boat, so I assume if I were shorter, a boat with 5'10" standing room would be comfortable but for someone 6' that's cramped.

Do most women not eat less? That's a good thing. I hate eating and storing and cooking on the boat so if you can get away with less that's good. It's all good actually. Smaller hosts are cheaper, easier to maneuver, less maintenance and tey still sail. You can do whatever you want on the right 32 footer as a 40 footer.

My dog is a corgi. She is short so she needs a smaller kennel than a lab.

This isn't about hither women can do in a boat what men can do, but whether they are held back from doing so by a boys club mentality which I do not think is too bad in sailing compared to maybe some other things.
 
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