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Another America�s Cup entry destroyed

38K views 386 replies 55 participants last post by  shadowraiths 
#1 ·
#110 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I've flown aircraft to runways I can't see.

I've ridden my motorcycle across half the countries in Europe and the Alps.

I've been an instructor for deep wreck and black water rescue diving.

I've sailed offshore in severe storms and zero viz.

I know risk and my spirit is just fine. It's not about eliminating risk, it's about continually getting better at managing it and reducing incidents. I understand there are professional teams that refused to compete in this AC because they thought this boat was too risky and another currently considering pulling out. Even the X-games have begun to eliminate some events, as they are too risky, despite the fact that there is no shortage in willing competitors.
 
#113 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I've flown aircraft to runways I can't see.

I've ridden my motorcycle across half the countries in Europe and the Alps.

I've been an instructor for deep wreck and black water rescue diving.

I've sailed offshore in severe storms and zero viz.

I know risk and my spirit is just fine. It's not about eliminating risk, it's about continually getting better at managing it and reducing incidents. I understand there are professional teams that refused to compete in this AC because they thought this boat was too risky and another currently considering pulling out. Even the X-games have begun to eliminate some events, as they are too risky, despite the fact that there is no shortage in willing competitors.
I'm maybe reading too much into Mills' and Barclays' quotes - but I have little doubt that much of the risk they were talking about was financial as much as danger. At US$10M+ a pop, for a new, unproven design that you know is going to need to be tested to breakage, that's a very tall order. Much easier to wait it out and see what happens.

The cost factor is the biggest issue to me (not the safety or necessarily the size). The cost kept too many teams on the sidelines. You're seeing the same thing in the VOR with the move to the VO65. Costs have to come down to increase participation - otherwise you have a boring race between too few compeitors.
 
#112 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

well said :eek::)

QUOTE=c. breeze;1029672]How can you seriously talk about the abandonment of safety when you have all kinds of mandatory PPE I use by AC crews? As well as PPE which may or may not be discretionary- such as air tanks to allow 3 -4 minutes breathing underwater?

This is called risk mitigation- there are many ways to conduct a risk assessment- and then to mitigate excessive risk, in order to bring it back into the realm of acceptability.

Are we so arrogant as to believe that the teams, the designers, and the officials haven't conceived of this very scenario?

It's all just a bunch of high horsery from folks that are too timid to take on that level of risk themselves- and find it uncomfortable to live in a world where there are those who are willing to sack up and go out there life on the line for something as pointless as sailing a billionaires boat. Then on the otherhand If this guy died sailing his pearson triton singlehanded on a circumnavigation thi place would be a cacophony of blowhards demanding to know who payed for the search and rescue- if any attempt was made at all- griping like they had to sign that check themselves personally. Sailing isn't about as pointless and self indulgent an activity as anything in existence - but there's this constant chorus of those decrying sailing in races, or singlehanded, or in a small boat, or when it's windy, or if where you want to go is the same direction that the wind is comin from. So for all those who are going on about how irresponsible or unsafe all this is- I say sell your boat. Sailing is irresponsible at its core. We aren't out here shuttling goods from
Continent to continent or filling or holds with clean burning whale oil with which to keep the streetlights lit.

This guy- with a solid background that afforded him the experience to make an informed decision said "this activity is both safe and well paying enough for me to engage in"

The guys writin the checks have so far determined that their exposure to risk is also acceptable- whether or not they are out on an AC 72.

I find the prevalence of the attitude that "it's not safe enough because someone died doing it" to be at its core indicative of the absolute decay of the American spirit- which historically sought out and thrived on adventure- in pursuit of goals as lofty as "building a new nation" to as mundane as just trying to keep food on the table.

I'm no big fan of the billboard boats. I don't care who paid for it or even who built it since they aren't cranking out rides I can get a seat on anyway. - I'm interested in who designed it and who is sailing it- so maybe they can make that change- keep the boats appearance a bit less commercial.[/QUOTE]
 
#114 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

How can you say the equipment sucks? Does your boat tool along at 45mph? How many lives were lost trying to fly faster than the speed of sound? Crappy equipment strikes again right?

Ah- 20 minutes of air- both arbitrary and impossible to store without affecting mobility etc, certainly a novel approach to what is already quite a physically demanding activity. Would a scuba tank on your back help or hinder your efforts on your own (non crappy) boat?

Is it A) possible or B) likely that further hampering these crews under the weight and bulk of additional PPE designed to comfort those watching from home would result in less efficient crews- and more frequent catastrophic capsize or other sailing related failure?

If I were paying the bills there would be a likeness of myself giving the finger in the spinnaker. Properly befitting both my ego and my desire for a less commercial appearance. Sadly- no spinnaker= no canvas that I find suitable for my purpose= making my decision not to finance an AC72 far more simple than any debate about the inherent risks involved in sailing the beast.

I'm sorry- I just reread your post and it is clear that you have applied a well trained eye to the situation with an acumen that I couldn't hope to match- and that intense scrutiny has led to the conclusion that "the equipment sucks" precisely which equipment sucks- and could you be a bit specific in regards to "sucks" ie "is under spec for the anticipated loads" or "demonstrates an incomplete understanding of physics" etc- I don't know- something a bit more quantitative.

I'm just beginning a refit- and I don't want my equipment to "suck"
 
#116 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Sorry - I meant Mills and Bertelli (not Barclay). I still stand by the comment though. They talk about safety - they think about cost. I have little doubt about that.

Think about it- no one is keeping them from designing a wing full of holes that can be fully depowered in a turn. Of course, they wouldn't be competitive, and we're back to cost.
 
#124 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Here is a great link to Ted Turner and Walter Cronkite.
1977: Ted Turner - 60 Minutes - CBS News

"Sports is like war without the killing."

My mother wouldn't let me play football.

I told my son he couldn't have a motorcycle in college.

I have had a couple motorcycle crashes.

My son told me about his motorcycle after I had no purse strings to pull.

Now I ride my motorcycle without a helmet when legal. My girl likes speed. I like safety and speed when prudent.

Sport is not to die. Or risk death. More risk on my couch than riding my bicycle on the streets. Which I do often.

Went to see the (boxing) Golden Gloves Championship at age 18. The crowd was not stirred by good boxing. When the lanky guy in the heavy weight division turned the stump's face into hamburger the crowd went wild. That is not sport. Haven't been back.
 
#126 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I can't get the link to work.

It was Ted Turner's quote.

I am just throwing out a little thought on risk and how we evaluate it.

I am very comfortable with the risks I take. I'd like my children to minimize their risks. My mother was the same.

I know people like to see the envelope pushed and call it sport.

Look at Hockey. Look at Football. Yes, the participants aren't forced at gunpoint. But they are lured by money. Look at the issue with concussions today. There is a blood lust with the fans. NASCAR is big where I live.

Don't float a boat that won't float. If you do, don't call it sport.

Just an opinion.
 
#127 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I don't think safety is even factored into the designs of these boat. They are designing the boat to go fast. They are then strapping O2 tanks on the crew and stocking the first aid kit on the chase boats to mitigate the danger in the designs. Safety is secondary to speed, durability is secondary to speed. These are super wealthy, super competitive individuals backing these campaigns to take home the cup. The sailors on the boat are also super competitive and willing to put it all out there to take home the cup. Everything is secondary to speed and winning.

Besides the chance of catastrophic failure and pitchpoling there is the chance of collision with these ultra high speed non maneuverable boats. Having watched the previous cat races, I feel that also has the potential for fatalities. There are a lot of ways that these boats are dangerous.

The comparison to Nascar is not really accurate. As Nascar as a sport has been evolving for decades. America's Cup changes venue and boat parameters every 3 years. These drag racing cats have been being developed for a few years. The drag racing cats 3 years from now there will be different parameters and different boats.

I think any crash or tragedy will cause a new band aid added to the racing of boats that are dangerous. Each crash will also teach ways to help mitigate the dangers. I believe in the recent death the sailor was missing for a while before being discovered.

I would think lessons learned is
Better accounting of crew after crashes.
More support boats with rescue divers.

Maybe the cup itself can provide a fleet of safety boats to supplement the team boats. Knifes and O2 bottles won't help an incapacitated sailor and the potential for that to happen on these boats seams greater than in past AC races.
 
#128 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

The comparison to Nascar is not really accurate. As Nascar as a sport has been evolving for decades. America's Cup changes venue and boat parameters every 3 years. These drag racing cats have been being developed for a few years. The drag racing cats 3 years from now there will be different parameters and different boats.
I think this is a critical issue and likely a reason why this debate will rage on for years. Whoever wins the cup next may likely change the boats to water ballasted sharpies. In just a few years teams will have to fund R&D, test and train crews on what I am sure will be the fastest sharpie to ever touch its keel to water. These teams do not have the luxury of decades to refine their designs and technologies to ensure all the air-bags and bumpers are adequate enough to keep the lawyers at bay. You take the current technologies and push them as far as you can in the time allotted and then hold on to your ass and compete.

The level of accomplishment these people must feel is overwhelming, as I'm sure their sorrow is overwhelming when there is a tragedy. However, they won't stop; human spirit being what it is will always move forward and push the limit of whatever frontier it can find. It defines us as a species.
 
#130 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

That issue right there is to me the crux of why these boats aren't the answer. Forget that they are disposable- forget that they exist or this one series of events exclusively and will never be heard from or seen again. It's that we end up with a boat that is too one dimensional from a performance standpoint. The safety issue doesn't bother me, I'm comfortable with people taking their lives in their own hands. It's the fact that we have an event tailored to spectators- but are going to end up with races cancelled because of what- it was windy that day??? I say you run what you brung- and the idea of some real carnage on the course has some appeal- sailing those boats to the absolute edge of what man has conceived of- controlled flight between two mediums- it's brilliant- but I say in for a penny - in for a pound, and the fact that its blowing 35 with 9-10 swell is no reason to cancel the event. In fact- maybe NOT canceling races is all the encouragement teams will need to more well rounded designs. Sure- I want to see big ass cats go twice the wind speed- but it would be even cooler if after a pitchpole or capsize they got out and ha to right the boat and keep sailing.

Bottom line- if you offer an "out" due to weather- you will see boats that can't handle weather. You want safer rides- then don't cancel races because of weather. Period. You will see more robus designs with a sail or wing that is "reefable" because it'll be known the new this boat HAS to function whether its blowing 6knots or 35 knots.

Box rule match racing is as exciting as it gets- whether I watch a blow out due to superior technology/ exploitation of the rule- or if the boat are evenly matched and its super tactical.

Edit: I'm not opposed to a weather call- but changing the standard now, mid stream, sends the wrong message- and will proliferate increasingly one dimensional designs in this event.
 
#132 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I would also think that all those griping about it being nothing more than an ego stroke for billionaires would enjoy seeing Ellison and company, as well as the other teams, told- "hey- you got the boat you wanted in the venue you wanted- now deal with it"
 
#134 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Putting words in my mouth then, are you? Not to strong with conjugation, perhaps? I doubt many or any people enjoyed seeing a guy drown either. Maybe re-read what you quoted- and recognize that I was offering potential future discussion- rather than discussing an event that had already transpired. In fact it was this event in the past which would generate this future discussion.

If you take issue with my opinion- then take issue with it. I don't even know you and yet I have enough respect to respond to what you actually say/ type

If you want to discuss ideas that I might eventually put forward- well speculate on, maybe it what it lacks in content and intrinsic value will be made up for in entertainment value, Jon.

I personally- and you would have to dig back all the way to the page before this one to notice- have no issue with the current design, nor it's potential to be less safe than what many people seem comfortable with. I personally am enthralled by the boats- regardless of whether they are "safe" or not. I personally think that alot I the talk regarding FAA type oversight of construction methods and materials is ridiculous.

I also put forward a rather basic and common sense notion that I will repeat here- I will use quotation marks- as I am actually saying this.

"If there is concern that the boats have become too one dimensional to be effective as a platform for competition, or that the boats are no longer safe enough- then the course of action that is most basic, and requires the least amount of interference from governing bodies and committees is to let any team that so chooses drop out now- or at the time of there choosing. However, modifying the standards of the weather call- at this point- will send a very clear message that designs that are increasingly fragile, unpredictable, and one dimensional will be catered to, and if that message is sent- designs that fit that description will continue to proliferate."

Note that I haven't endorsed or suggested a course of action, I have only pointed out some of the logical consequences of some of the courses of action currently on the table for consideration- thereby allowing those with reasonable reading comprehension skills to draw their own conclusions- and possibly continue the discussion- based on some limited but reasonable understanding on the several facets of the present dillema.

I, for one, remain comfortable with the knowledge that (gasp) sailing and - this is an even bigger (gasp) competition at the highest level are not without potentially fatal risk.

Don't try cheap shots like quoting me out of context in concert with a lackluster quip to get any communicating done. If your going to argue a point- make sure it's one in contention- anything else is a waste of time and makes you seem foolish.
 
#144 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Putting words in my mouth then, are you? Not to strong with conjugation, perhaps? I doubt many or any people enjoyed seeing a guy drown either. Maybe re-read what you quoted- and recognize that I was offering potential future discussion- rather than discussing an event that had already transpired. In fact it was this event in the past which would generate this future discussion.
Sorry, you'll just have to pardon my abysmal reading comprehension skills, I suppose...

So, are you suggesting that a a future destruction of another AC boat, or a repeat of the sort of accident that occurred last week, is not still within the realm of possibility, and the sort of thing the organizers and competitors might yet again have to "deal with"?

Originally Posted by c. breeze

I would also think that all those griping about it being nothing more than an ego stroke for billionaires would enjoy seeing Ellison and company, as well as the other teams, told- "hey- you got the boat you wanted in the venue you wanted- now deal with it"
Seems to me, LATITUDE 38 strikes the right note, here (bolded portion mine):

While the edgy, ultra-high-speed nature of AC72 racing was meant to spur Cup enthusiasm from both sailors and non-sailors, Thursday's accident has caused some Cup-watchers to claim that technical innovations of this new generation of boats are not yet sufficiently tested and refined to be safe, especially in brisk SF Bay conditions.

No doubt a wide range of opinions and concerns will be expressed tomorrow when representatives from all four AC teams (Oracle Team USA, Artemis Racing, Luna Rossa Challenge and Emirates Team New Zealand) will sit down together for a earnest discussion of the mishap and its consequences. "The meeting with the teams is a crucial next step," Murray said. "We need to establish an open flow of information to ensure this review meets its goals of fact-finding and putting us in a position to recommend changes, if necessary." We expect this will be a closed-door session, and we suspect some strong opinions will be voiced about the viability of AC72s for Cup racing in typical Bay conditions, as there have been critical grumblings - especially from the New Zealanders - for many months. (Naturally, we would love to be a fly on the wall of those sessions.)

As exciting as AC72s are to watch, in light of Simpson's death we, too, have to wonder if research and development of this new class of boats isn't still too much in the experimental phase to be ready for competition before a world-wide audience just 51 days from now. Reacting to Thursday's tragedy, the German team has dropped out of September's Red Bull Youth America's Cup (although those races will be aboard seemingly more stable AC45s.) "The death of one sailor is reason enough," said team founder Oliver Schwall. "We also feel that our decision has to send an important message after this disaster. It's time (for event organizers) to start thinking."

As we mourn the loss of a great athlete, we also feel empathy for Barkley and Murray as, ultimately, the buck stops with them - we certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now. Although some critics are vociferously calling for the cancellation or postponement of the Cup, major TV and promotional contracts have been signed, infrastructure is in place, and probably close to a half-billion dollars has been spent by the teams and other so-called stake-holders.

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude
No easy solutions, with an event of this magnitude, and this much money involved... Allow me to make one more analogy to motor racing, the sport I know best...

I now have the same sense of foreboding as I've had going into particular race weekends in the past... Most recently, the IndyCar season finale 2 years ago in Las Vegas...

Everyone in the paddock knew the potential for disaster that race presented.. Running a field of 34 on a wide, high-banked 1.5 mile oval, cars flat-out 100% of each lap, everyone I knew fully expected someone to get hurt... Right from the opening laps, it was obvious the format was simply all wrong, and the race only made it to Lap 11 before the reigning Indy 500 Dan Wheldon lost his life in a horrific shunt which involved virtually half the field...

Hopefully, my gut feeling is wrong about this one, and the remainder of the AC will be run without a hitch... I wouldn't put money on it, however, and can only hope that any further calamity will only involve damage to the equipment, and not the sailors themselves... AC racing never has carried anything remotely close to the sort of risk that motor racing does, in entire 130+ year history of the Cup, only ONE sailor had ever been killed prior to last week... What might be deemed an 'acceptable risk' in a sport like motor racing still has no place in AC racing, in my view...
 
#137 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

There's some saying about blind pigs and truffles that comes to mind...

Hahaha. I hate argueing on the Internet cuz there's no point- I mean even less so than in real life- so I'm glad for the opportunity to inject something other than... Heated discussion.

It's only sailing for chistsake...

I'm glad you're able to see humor where you find it these days- I doubt my own resiliency were the tables turned. I could learn alot about mental health from you. Cheers smack.
 
#141 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

So, the boats are set... That's a done deal
Venue is set... Also a done deal
Administrations have hired what are arguably the bes workers money can buy- done deal

As mentioned above rescheduling "work" may - that means "might" have a short term positive impact on safety - though in the long term actually stands to work against an over all safer "work environment" in this case.

So... We have crews outfitted in more/ improved PPE than in previous events- as a last line of defense...

Last of defense or not- I fail to see how an improved last line I defense represents an "abandonment of safety considerations" or whatever the the exact quote was.

So while that is an instructive excerpt, it doesn't really address the point I made.

Which is only this- these guys aren't bounty crew. They are about as well trained and informed as anyone can get. They are in fact THE ONLY SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS. None of us- or anyone else has the kind of experience they do- and the fact that they (those who do) remain willing to participate sends a very clear message "we, the participants of these events, certify and endorse that it is safe"

Maybe qualify that with an "enough."

There's lots of folks out there who wouldn't take the gamble- and the majority of them will never, could never be in the position to make that decision- why? Underqualified.

Are you qualified? I'm not. I wish I was- I'm confident that getting to participate in this activity (I'm not calling it sailing right now) would be worth it. The cutting edge. Flight in 2 mediums, air and water- simultaneously.

People are shocked they can't jibe etc- why? It's essentially brand new. This has as much in common with moth as it does a laser- not a lot.

So maybe give me, the crews, the engineers, and the wright brothers a break with all this "it's just not safe"

*its also possible that a mundane workplace leads to mundane views on workplace safety. I'm not willing to take my life in my own hands and run a lathe in a machine shop jrunk wearing a necktie- which leads me to this- what are the real threats to sailors- sun, and hydration

Yet hundreds of sailors are out every weekend DRINKING ALCOHOL, while not drinking water and wearing sunscreen. Now- much like the lathe example above- that's a little high risk for me personally. So- I utilize my last line of defense (PPE) as well as mitigate se
Of the environmental factors- IE, no booze on board (at least underway), and plenty of water. It's the responsible thing to do.
 
#145 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

....I fail to see how an improved last line I defense represents an "abandonment of safety considerations" or whatever the the exact quote was.

.....
I suspect it was my comment, but I haven't gone back to find it either. I did reference the abandonment of safety with respect to designing a new boat that increased risk, unlike every other sport that fights to decrease it. The fact that they are trying to mitigate that increase with PPE would not change my point. The net is still an increase. I believe they could have amped up performance and not increased risk to the point that anyone was going to have any significant risk of death.
 
#148 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

People are shocked they can't jibe etc- why? It's essentially brand new. This has as much in common with moth as it does a laser- not a lot.

The pitch-pole thing has been and issue on cats since the Hobie 14' because it has such small holes it was very easy to bury one But you did Not get pitched all that far

Now your pretty much getting pitch-poled from a if you cant hold on or its a fatal height
 
#149 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

People are shocked they can't jibe etc- why? It's essentially brand new. This has as much in common with moth as it does a laser- not a lot.

The pitch-pole thing has been and issue on cats since the Hobie 14' because it has such small holes it was very easy to bury one But you did Not get pitched all that far

Now your pretty much getting pitch-poled from a if you cant hold on or its a fatal height
Agree. I used to sail Pridle 16 across the Ches Bay. Once I was midway across from Annapolis and single hand with full sail and tried to tack. She would not go with the 25 knot southerly and 5 foot wind swell. Just could not get her through the winds eye. I really wanted to tack as there was a huge ship headed up the bay and I was getting ready to cross the shipping channel. I did not want to jibe as I knew for sure I would capsize the boat when the wind caught. I crossed the bow of the ship and headed to the calm of the western shore where I could tack and sailed back to annapois Put the Prindle away and got my windsurfer. I had a few pitch poles with the P16. Never wanted a P18 as I was afraid of getting impalled on the single spreader that mast had.
 
#152 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Just to be difficult- I'm a hacker have nothing close to the smallest fraction of the skill set of a PGA golfer. They are playing a different game from me but I can appreciate what they do. Watch extreme games kids playing sports I never played and won't never be able to play at their level. Fun to watch but have trouble relating. See long distance sailboat racing as the first (consider those folks the pinnacle of racing sailors) and current AC as the second. just saying
never liked dennis connors either
 
#153 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

The paid crews are indeed the best but they are also being paid to drive someone else's boat for our amusement. Some disagree, but I say they have no choice but to accept these risks that shouldn't be imposed upon them. The engineerring of these boats is flawed. It doesnt require turning the clock back a century to fix. Further, they aren't in this conversation, I did not mock them and the use of chauffeur was metaphorical not hyperbole.

The bathtub comment was specifically directed at the "cautious sailors on here", so we'll respond to it. I'm good with that.
 
#154 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

FWIW, The Americas Cup Organisers just released a statement that the games will go on:

America

Personally I'm on the fence on theses monsters, but looking forward to seeing them in 2 weeks while in SF.
 
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#157 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

FWIW, The Americas Cup Organisers just released a statement that the games will go on:

America

Personally I'm on the fence on theses monsters, but looking forward to seeing them in 2 weeks while in SF.
But why be on the fence? Bad **** can happen when any boat gets upside down. There was a 14 yo girl killed last year in Annapolis when her 420(or Laser or whatever) turtled while racing or practicing to race. Nobody thinks racing 420's(or lasers or whatever) is too dangerous.

As has been noted previously these guys are at the top of the sport and know what they are getting into. Rather that presuming they are coerced into sailing on these boats by the lure of money and fame, I presume they LIKE the challenge of sailing faster than almost anything on the water and the money and fame are nice perks. In short, I don't think anyone involved feels they are being sent to the slaughter.

I read some of these posts and am reminded of Aesop's Fox and the grapes.
 
#155 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

To say that someone doesn't have a choice has to be an incredibly inaccurate statement. We all have choices to make and we make them freely every day, regardless of our profession.

Every athlete paid to compete in a spectator sport is there for our amusement. Are you saying that is bad?
 
#156 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

To say that someone doesn't have a choice has to be an incredibly inaccurate statement. We all have choices to make and we make them freely every day, regardless of our profession.

Every athlete paid to compete in a spectator sport is there for our amusement. Are you saying that is bad?
Technically, they have a choice. Practically, how do they turn down being crew on an AC boat? The opportunity may never come again. Damn the torpedoes.

All other spectator sports have made incremental efforts to be safer year upon year. Nothing bad about amusing us, we only owe them better than the risk of the AC 72s in return.
 
#160 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

You make a good point. However what if this wasn't for sport? What if was a project to create a new breed of sailing craft and these men & women were pioneers. We would owe them nothing. Does that change because we call it a race and watch it on tv?
Great point. I actually think this is Ellison's mission - to push this event to a completely new place. He is, without doubt, pioneering the AC. I say good on him.
 
#163 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

If there weren't any cameras and there wasn't any prestige- these guys would be out there doing this.

It's as much about pushing yourself as far as you can go- as much as it is about pushing the equipment and changing the game. Men make the challenge so they can rise to it. Are the AC72s ready? Hell no. They aren't robust enough- they can't be adequately depowered we all know that.

Again- all the better reason to make these guys run the boats they chose in the venue they chose. Don't soften the challenge- nothing is gained from that- keep the bar that they set for themselves- and be amazed at what you see come out of it.

Chrisake- let the human spirit soar- let theseem rise to the occasion- tame the beasts- and demonstrate again the indomitable will to adapt and overcome.

It's certainly no for everyone. As for workplace safety- risk assessment, risk management- if your nine to five fits into the scope of what OSHA thinks you should do, and you aren't factoring in concepts like ground and air medevac, ammo resupply, vehicle crossroads, most likely and most dangerous courses of enemy action- so on and so forth- if you don't have team leaders doing PCC's and squad leaders performing PCIs- I you don't do rehearsals and rock drills- if you don't train to the point that your actions become a collective action rapidly executed without applying a deliberate decision-making process- we probably don't have much to discuss when comes to "safety in the workplace"

Because you just haven't had to lay it on the line.

And no- I'm not going to discuss my myriad adventuresssss- outside if those outlined earlier.

Minne- yes it was your statement re abandonment of safety considerations etc. I get distracted by broad brush strokes that leave myriad streaks and gaps in the overall finish...

And the simple fact remains- the guys who are the sole subject matter experts are by and large staying on the boats.

Only the second fatality in 130 years? Remarkable. Why aren't we celebrating that track record- It should be held aloft as an example to other sports.

Anyone remember the opening sequence of the right stuff? Talking about the sound barrier and the bell x1- it wound up with this quote "men came to the high deserts of California to ride it- they were called test pilots, and no one knew there names"

It's not about fame. It's not about money. It's just that voice inside your head that tells you to hurry up when there's someone walking a few steps ahead or behind you. Of you don't have it- you'll never understand but it won't let you rest. It says "hear that- they're right behind you- maybe catching up- maybe not- maybe they just think you can't get away" he says "they are right there- you have to pass them- or they'll think you can't". It says "jeez dude- it's a hill- just run up it- what's the problem- why aren't you trying?"

So if you don't hear that voice everyday- pushing you every step turning your every waking moment into a contest with yourself- because your fellow man isn't always there to compete against- you might be a happy and content soul- but that's all you'll ever be. And you'll never grasp what makes a man willing to go out and leave it all out on the field- holding nothing back for the return trip.

To me that is just impossibly bland.
 
#164 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

If there weren't any cameras and there wasn't any prestige- these guys would be out there doing this.
Hmmm, I don't think so... Who would pay the bills?

Take away the cameras, and the prestige - these logos would disappear overnight... Corporations are not in the habit of spending millions to plaster their brand on the proverbial tree falling in a forest, with nobody around to hear the sound...

 
#169 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Agree with Jon on this one. We've watched AC in light air off S.D. and heavy air more then once. These boats are fascinating but a distortion - a very small segment- of what sailing is about. It has become a ninch race. Much like the boarders and planers racing in ditches to get flat water while they go for speed records. Like the difference between the salt flats and general road racing. This is not to take away from the technology, skill and courage of this endeavor but it makes for high light films not not engagement for the general public.
 
#171 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Agree with Jon on this one. We've watched AC in light air off S.D. and heavy air more then once. These boats are fascinating but a distortion - a very small segment- of what sailing is about. It has become a ninch race. Much like the boarders and planers racing in ditches to get flat water while they go for speed records. Like the difference between the salt flats and general road racing. This is not to take away from the technology, skill and courage of this endeavor but it makes for high light films not not engagement for the general public.
And the Tour de France is a very small segment of what bike riders are about
And formula 1 is a small segment of what driving a car is about
And so on.

These guys are pushing the edge
 
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