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Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

14K views 65 replies 27 participants last post by  asdf38 
#1 ·
For all those folks propagating the B.S. that newer and more expensive sailboats are necessarily better sailboats, classic plastic smoked the fleet of boats, including those costing 10 to 20 times more this weekend.

A 1983 Hobie 33 "Mirage" and a J/24 sailboat "Rocket J" corrected to 1st and 2nd place respectively in the 2013 Down the Bay Race. a 140 mile overnight race from Annapolis, MD, to Hampton, VA, with a strong Northwest wind propelling the boats to record time.

The Hobie 33 (probably less than 20K) not only corrected to 1st, but also beat two J/120, a Sabre 426, a Jeanneau 409, a Catalina 387, a J/42, and a Benneteau First 36.7 on elapsed time.

Race results: Yacht Scoring - A complete web based regatta administration and yacht scoring program
 
#2 ·
Sometimes, it's not how well the boat sails, but how well you sail the boat.
 
#3 ·
Agreed, and perhaps those owning a $10K - $20K debt free raceboat are more willing to push the envelope when it is blowing in the 20s.

What is fascinating about these results is that a classic J/24, a good all around racer first designed and built in Rod Johnstone's garage some 40 years ago, in the days before computer design and high tech materials, can still go out and stomp $200-300K boats, boat-to-boat.
 
#6 ·
Well





As a TWO TIME J24 owner going back to 1981 i can assure you it was a good thing there was no real UPWIND work as it would have been a slow REALLY WET submarine ride

In reaching conditions like that 9 knots steady with plenty of 12 knots surfs is easy and you will sail well above the rating

When you gotta make it home upwind and there is any kind of sea your VMG is going to be down in the 4 knot range

Same deal with the Hobie cant go upwind
 
#7 ·
ok so it looks like the conditions were good for the 2 older boats who also had great crew and knew what to do with it .. what I take from this is that all the advancements in hull design and everything are pulling small %'s out of the air but the majority of it is still around the crew and conditions.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Ding, ding, ding...this is the correct answer! (By the way, some of you don't know what "elapsed time" means: Hello, the Hobie 33 beat most of the fleet, boat to boat, without regard to any PHRF handicap rating!!!)

Lessons:

Applying rocket science to sailboats does not necessarily produce a rocket, but is does produce an extremely expensive sailboat.

While technological advances such as carbon fiber and computer assisted design have greatly increased the cost of new sailboats, they have not greatly increased the speed potential of monohulls in all conditions.

The 70s and 80s were the heydey of sailing in the U.S.: all the recent technological advances have not produced a better Hobie 33 or a better J/24. If so, such boats would have won the race.

A simple fiberglass, aluminum and lead sailboat with a symmetrical spinnaker and a good crew can still smoke the fleet in the right conditions.

Not only is racing nonspinnaker a contradiction in terms, it is also like kissing your sister, drinking decaf coffee or lite beer, or paying to go on a sailing rally. Sure, there are people who do it, but you gotta wonder why... Here are the most common reasons:

"Oh, we are just racing for fun..." What is not fun about a spinnaker?

"I don't have the crew to race with a spinnaker." Um...I sail solo and fly a symmetrical spinnaker. How many people do you need?

"It is too complicated." So, you don't really know how to sail? Even after all your ASA courses? A spinnaker is a basic and essential sail on a boat, especially if you race.

"We ran out of money and can't afford one because we spent too much money on the boat, and no one will finance a spinnaker set up." Finally, the truth...:laugher

Excuses, excuses, excuses...

Here are some videos of the fast TP 52 "Irie" that took line honors (yes, the TP 52 is a testament to what high tech can accomplish - yes, I like it, but it costs half a million dollars):



 
#8 · (Edited)
And what that means?

First of all that the Hobie 33 was much better sailed than any other boat. The boat beat by 1h e 20m all boats with an identical performance (PHRF).

Second, comparing the performance of the Hobbie 33 with the one of the a Jeanneau 409 or the Catalina 387 is not meaningful, not only because they are not the same type of boat but also because those two boats were in a class that does not use spinnaker.

Third, if the idea was to say that old boats can beat new boats the fact is that there was not any recent boat racing on the A2 class, the class where raced the Hobbie 33 and on the other "racing" class there were racing only two recent boats, a Farr 400 and a TP 52.

The Hobie 33 made and incredible race, in 10h 58m, the Farr 400 has done it in 9h 4m and the TP 52, in 7h 3m. These are race boats and not comparable with the Hobbie 33, that is not also comparable with a Jeanneau or a Catalina. The Hobie 33 was one of the first ultra light displacement boats, much of a race boat in its time and an expensive boat when new.

Among the boats without spinnaker the very bad time of the Jeanneau 409 can only be explained by a very badly sailed boat but the times of the other modern cruisers on that class, like the Jeanneau 42i (12h 41m) and the one of the Catalina 385 (14h 10m) compare very favorably with older boats of the same type using spinnaker, like the Sabre 426 (12h 44m), J40 (12h 20m and J42 (13h 32m). A spinnaker makes a big difference in a boat speed.

Regards

Paulo
 
#9 · (Edited)
Not to take anything away from those boats, as they clearly sailed a good race, but you can't put too much stock in overall results in a phrf fleet with a 280 point spread! The system just doesn't work well in those circumstances.

To declare the J24 and Hobie 33 to be superior boats to all the others based on that result is just a bit silly.

Having said that, I agree that beating big expensive boats with an old beater is fun!
 
#10 ·
^^ This. I mean, in a PHRF race a Westsail 32 can "beat" an Open 60...nevermind the fact that the Open 60 completed the race twelve hours before the Westsail... I'll take the (objectively) faster boat, thanks. (caveat being, of course, that I could afford to own a Westsail, I couldn't afford a single sail for the Open 60...) Point being that the results of a PHRF race have very little to do with the boats, and everything to do with the sailor(s) and the conditions of the race.
 
#14 ·
Yes but we were talking about real times, not corrected to PHRF. The Hobie 33 was sailed very higher than its PHRF. That means probably a planing boat sailing over hull speed for a lot of time for a very good crew on ideal conditions for the boat. As others had said that time has to do with the crew, not the boat. There were other boats that could be sailed as fast or more downwind with a great crew, like the j105 ot the J120 that made not so good in real time. That means probably that they were not so well sailed not that the boats are slower.

Regarding other types of boats, like a Sabre, a Catalina or Jeanneau, those are not cruiser racers and cannot plan downwind, most of them did not even had a spinnaker.

To take significant information out of a race regarding boats it is needed that all the boats are sailed at very high level (top regattas) and preferably with hundreds of boats racing and you need to look at the real times not corrected times.

Regards

Paulo
 
#11 ·
...and in other news, two ancient, Pearson Tritons rating 252 corrected to 1st and 2nd place in PHRF C in the Miles River Race on Saturday. They didn't even have any high-tech rags for cryin' out loud.

I managed to surf my way to 10.8 knots SOG and peg out the knot meter multiple times in a Pearson 30 and was still DFL.

Mortifying.
 
#18 ·
Not sure what rating the Hobie had, but IIRC in South Cal, the hobie has 3 ratings, around the bouy rating of say 100, ocean rating with some up and down wind of say 90, and a down wind projected race of say 80. NOW, that I have posted 3 ratings for this boat per say, please note, I doubt very much my numbers are correct. BUT it does show the how some regions will rate a given boat, and why the hobie probably smoked the course, adn to a degree, the J24. If a Moore 30 would have been racing, probably would have done the same. if it woudhave been an upwind race, then some old heavy clunker might have been able to do the same......

Lets all be realistic, some races do bring out the best conditions for a given boat, and that boat if sailed well, will smoke the fleet!

I would also agree, that NFS is hard to compare to nfs ratings too. Some boat will sail way faster than the 18sec credit one gets with a spin vs with out! Folding vs fixed props are also not true. a fixed will cost one more than the 9 sec credit one gets! same with furling..........

It is fun to see well sailed boats win races!

Marty
 
#26 ·
Not sure what rating the Hobie had, but IIRC in South Cal, the hobie has 3 ratings, around the bouy rating of say 100, ocean rating with some up and down wind of say 90, and a down wind projected race of say 80. NOW, that I have posted 3 ratings for this boat per say, please note, I doubt very much my numbers are correct. BUT it does show the how some regions will rate a given boat, and why the hobie probably smoked the course, adn to a degree, the J24. If a Moore 30 would have been racing, probably would have done the same. if it woudhave been an upwind race, then some old heavy clunker might have been able to do the same......

Lets all be realistic, some races do bring out the best conditions for a given boat, and that boat if sailed well, will smoke the fleet!

I would also agree, that NFS is hard to compare to nfs ratings too. Some boat will sail way faster than the 18sec credit one gets with a spin vs with out! Folding vs fixed props are also not true. a fixed will cost one more than the 9 sec credit one gets! same with furling..........

It is fun to see well sailed boats win races!

Marty
Not Bad at all:). On that race the PHRF of the Hobie 33 was 96 the one from the Jeanneau 409 was 90, the one from the Jeannau 42ip 81 and the one from the J105 90.

Either the J105 and the Hobie 33, if very well sailed by an experienced crew and if the race is downwind with strong winds can get to planning speeds and on those conditions make much better than heavier boats, specially when those are racing without spinnaker. That would not be so in any other conditions where they would be slower, assuming equally competent crews, that was not obviously the case here.

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdetail.cfm?Yacht_ID=38217

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdetail.cfm?Yacht_ID=38351

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdetail.cfm?Yacht_ID=38083

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdetail.cfm?Yacht_ID=38822

Regards

Paulo
 
#20 · (Edited)
I don't put much stock in this result or draw any generalizations from this race , except to congratulate the winner, as any winner is to be congratulated

A paper boat would have set records this weekend in that race. For the record this is a straight line race with nothing even close to an upwind leg.

Conditions were 25-30 steady with gusts to 35 on Saturday on the Bay and they would have been on a broad reach not tacking once down the Bay down the Bay the entire course. Sunday was a repeat of Saturday , minus 5 knots of wind. It was like being in an NHRA 1/4 mile drag race instead of a true test of boats on a course race with different points of sail. How can the use PHRF rating and corrected times in such a race.

We sailed the same direction South on the Bay and on Saturday reached record hull speeds on our little 35 foot boat of 10+ knots with a furled jib.. Nothing like near gale force winds with gusts in that range to give any boat a big PUSH

Now if you'd told me that cheap plastic boat won a race heading north...that would have been a feat indeed.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Here is what it looks like when a $10K, low-tech, 35-year-old J/24 planes past your $300K Open 60-styled boat incorporating all the lastest technology and electronics (different race, same conditions and same effect):

The $20K 30-year-old Hobie 33 would also spray you with its bow wave as it passed you...
 
#29 · (Edited)
Here is what it looks like when a $10K, low-tech, 35-year-old J/24 planes past your $300K Open 60-styled boat incorporating all the lastest technology and electronics (different race, same conditions and same effect): Miles River Race onboard a J/24, May 25, 2013 - YouTube

The $20K 30-year-old Hobie 33 would also spray you with its bow wave as it passed you...
I continue without understanding your point. If your point is that 30 year old boats are as fast as today's boats or even close...well what can I say, Wolfie in another thread is saying the same regarding 70 year's old boats and you are as wrong as him.

For any comparison to make any sense you have to compare similar types of boats. What is the sense of comparing and old high tech (at the time) and very expensive (at the time) racer cruiser (much more racer than cruiser) with an inexpensive mass production boat like the Jeanneau 409? True, the Jeanneau is faster, at least in most conditions, but then it is also a bigger boat.

If you want to compare the Hobie 33 compare it with a modern boat of the same size and type, for instance the JPK 10.10. Not much of a comparison, the JPK will smoke the old Hobie upwind, downwind in weak or stronger wind and not by a little but by a lot. have a look at one going downwind:



No, this is not a downwind boat, it is a IRC champion, the boat wins upwind or downwind and contrary to the Hobie 33 it can be also a winner solo sailing, able to go fast on autopilot. The boat has also a much better cruiser interior than the Hobie and much more interior space.

Regarding prices how can you compare prices of new boats with 30 year old used boats? But if you think that you can race effectively an old Hobie without a complete overall of the boat including new sails you are wrong...and then the boat will not cost $20K anymore and the money you have "invested" would almost all be lost when you sell the money...for $20K.

An interesting article about that:

"The first production ultralight displacement boats are turning 30 years old, and that means their price is finally down in the ultra-affordable range. I bought a 1986 Hobie 33 in New England for $23,000, dreaming of 20-knot surfs and front-of-the beer-can-fleet finishes, but its ancient sails and knotty foils needed replacement or repair, as well as some other standard old-boat touch-ups.....The worn deck is just one of the tired parts of the boats. The halyards have another year or two of life, and the sheets are dirty but serviceable. The wood parts of the cabin sole need refinishing, and the cushions need recovering or replacement, but those items can wait. This year, my family has an appointment with the front of the fleet."

Total cost, even without recovering the interior or the worn deck : $37,796

I wonder what would amount a proper boat recuperation :rolleyes: and what would be the resale value of the boat after that.

And james, a JPK 10.10 does not cost $300 000;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#24 ·
James, I've done this race twice in my Merit 25. Basically the same boat as a J24. Once I finished in 34 hours in 4th place. The next year we finished in 35 hours and won our class. We beat "boat for boat" the entire PHRF B fleet over the line. Both years it was entirely upwind. Does that mean the Merit 25 with 20' of waterline is faster upwind than a newer 33 footer upwind? No, it doesn't.

There's is now doubt in my mind we would've won the Miles river race on saturday. We took Second last year in our class and with a downwind ride in a 3000 lbs boat that J24 surfing wouldn't of had a chance. Unfortunately I'm injured and had to bail.

Fact is that I know my boat is fast downwind in a blow. It will surf and plane much sooner than larger heavier boats. Newness has nothing to do with it.

The Hobbie 33 is a downwind machine. Take a look at the results from past transpacs. A typically downwind race. Lots of videos of these 33 footers surfing and planing. Some boats go downwind like a rocket. Others, not so much.

The TP 52 is a "Trans Pac 52" footer. It was built specifically for a downwind sleigh ride in the pacific ocean screaming down waves in 25+ knots. When you purposely build a boat for specific conditions it will scream in those conditions. Hobbie 33's are built for similar downwind conditions.

The real impressive feat here, is the TP52. Set a new course record of just over 7 hours. That's an average speed of 17 kts.

James, if you'd like discus this more, I'll be at SBRW this weekend. Stop in for a beer and I can go into more detail. I'll be on the other Merit 25 down there, not mine.
 
#28 ·
Sounds like the same old stuff I heard when sailing my 12K 30-year old Stiletto with original sails and 8-year-old crew against 6-7 figure race boats; you're cheating, that's a catamaran and not a real boat.

Whatever. My fun/$ ratio had them buried and they didn't like that. They couldn't afford to loose, I could.
 
#31 ·
IIRC a Cal 20 sailed Pacific Cup (SF to Hawaii) a couple of years ago... It arrived a couple of weeks behind the first to finish; but corrected to 1'st place. :D :D

I think too much is made out of the PHRF numbers. These are ratings based on displacement hull designs with the assumption that the boat does not plane. The extremely low, even negative PHRF ratings that are given to larger and faster boats (like maxis, cats, etc) are for their ability to exceed hull speed (plane). The smaller boats will plane or surf more readily than a larger hull and when they do it's going to far exceed it's downwind PHRF rating, which only accounts for it's non-planing theoretical hull speed.
 
#32 ·
Horses for courses. Hobie 33s go downwind very fast, that is what they were designed to do. They still do that 30 years later. If you want to go downhill really fast on a budget, a Hobie 33 or Olson 30 is your ticket. If you want to go uphill fast too, then you might want to look at some other boats. If you want to be comfortable while you do it, you are going to need to dig into your wallet a bit more. I love some of the older boats, I even own one. But you can't compare them with new ones without taking into account the requirements the design is meant to meet.
 
#34 · (Edited)
There is a reason why there are races, and actual results.

Some love the theories and the numbers, and who should win based on abstractions. (When I was involved in SCCA solo II racing, people did the same things with sports cars: "Well, based on the numbers, this one should easily beat that one..." It did not always work that way in reality: some things in vehicle design cannot be accurately measured. The whole is often greater than the sum of the parts. Also, some of the guys with the most expensive cars were not willing to actually push them to the limit while racing, because they were too precious to risk destroying.)

Results matter.

In sailing, when the wind blows 20-30 knots on the race course, the hype and the B.S. are separated from the reality. These theoretically faster boats are apparently not showing up for the races. The fact is, these 30 year old West Coast ULDBs, the Olsons, the Hobies, the Santa Cruzs, the Moore, even the older East Coast J boats and early 90s racers, are still winning races.

Is it possible that all the claims about technological improvements in sailboats in the last 20 to 30 years is mostly puffery to sell boats, in an industry that is a victim of its own successes in the 70s and 80s?

The marine industries took a left turn after the recession in the '80s in order to survive, dropping value-oriented spartan race boats and dual purpose boats in order to survive. Now, the bulk of boats are either expensive production condo cruisers that appeal to wives at boat shows (and rate no better than the 70s and 80s racer/cruisers of the same LOA), or expensive all-out high-tech racing boats that break fairly easily. A sane boat buyer today asks, "why should I pay X for a new boat, when I can buy a used boat that does 95% of what X can do, for one-tenth the price?"

I don't buy the hype. Outside of Gran Prix sailboat racing, there has not been such a great improvement in production boats over the last 20 to 30 years to justify the greatly higher prices. It is a matter of value. The planing racers from the '70s, '80s and the early '90s racers can still win, at all but the highest levels. If you have any doubts, look at the 2012 Newport to Bermuda race results.

Is anyone surprised that Sabre Yachts just ceased production of its sailboat line? Exactly why would someone pay half a million dollars for one of its new cruising sailboats?

You wonder why sailing is a dying sport, a dying activity? It is not because we sailors are not inviting enough novices in. The marine industries stopped catering to the affluent-but-not-rich masses in the late 80s, and they have been headed down ever since. The other thing you can notice about this past weekend's local races - the Down the Bay race and the St. Michaels race - is not too many people are participating any more.
 
#41 ·
You wonder why sailing is a dying sport, a dying activity? It is not because we sailors are not inviting enough novices in. The marine industries stopped catering to the affluent-but-not-rich masses in the late 80s, and they have been headed down ever since. The other thing you can notice about this past weekend's local races - the Down the Bay race and the St. Michaels race - is not too many people are participating any more.
You're lumping a crap load of factors into one post, so much so that I don't know if I agree or disagree with you.

I'm pretty sure I disagree with the assertion that the marine industry stopped catering to the affluent but not rich masses. I'd argue that economics has greatly reduced those that fall into that category, and that the preference for instant gratification have decimated them even more when it comes to recreational boating. I think its far more likely the marine industry and sailboat sector especially have tried to find ways to adapt to that changing environment and have been somewhat successful doing so. You cannot argue that the size of a "starter" sailboat has increased drastically over the past 10-15 years. Apparently these boats provide more margin and a better chance at survival compared to selling more smaller boats. Lastly, I don't know that as a percentage of income that the cruiser racer of the 70's-80's posed any less financial burden that today's offerings.

Going back to your comments on rating schemes and results, you have confused me. If a new design boat completes a course of sail faster than a older boat design, but looses the "race" because of a handicap system, are you saying those are the results that matter and the old boat is the better boat?

Many people see lots of issues with the PHRF ratings, sometimes with diametrically opposed views. Many think the system is flawed if the newer boats don't dominate and others complain if older boats seem uncompetitive.

Regarding declining numbers participating in DTB, consider that it does compete with another, shorter, distance race will less daunting logistical issues.
 
#35 · (Edited)
First I sail and race on old boats and we do win are share of silver against for the most part against other older boats when we do beat the modern stuff it is because conditions are just really perfect for us and don't allow them any conditions were there speed advantage comes into play

And I have to add the Zzzoom may be a 1970 boat BUT it is on its third keel and second rudder and has a current state of the art bendy aluminum mast and a full modern 3DL sail inventory

Except for the current sail inventory most of the stuff was done by a deep pocket PO who got tired of the boat and passed it along to the current owner who put a pretty massive amount of effort into putting the boat back into race condition

And none of the other old boats we race against are doing it with old rags they also spend BIG MONEY on modern sails



If there is any kind of balance of upwind VS downwind were getting killed on the downwind legs



On are trip out to port Jefferson last summer which took place on a Strafford Shoal race day (36 mile round trip) we left 4 hours before the start and the Farr 400 in the picture made up the 16 miles that took us 4 hours in about 2 hours and there was really nobody in second place

This season in are area the spinnaker fleets have been divided up by sprit boat and symmetrical boat division's which is pretty much a new boat and old division as it was completely impossible for us at a PHRF 115 to keep up with a J80 downwind if it was above 12 knots ?

We are stuck at 7 knots and there turning at the mark and surfing away at 12 knots
 
#36 ·
This season in are area the spinnaker fleets have been divided up by sprit boat and symmetrical boat division's which is pretty much a new boat and old division as it was completely impossible for us at a PHRF 115 to keep up with a J80 downwind if it was above 12 knots ?

We are stuck at 7 knots and there turning at the mark and surfing away at 12 knots
Yes, and the J/80s are now turning 20 years old. When I crewed on an Olson 30 in the Bay in PHRF A2 in the early to mid-90s, we were sailing against some 35-40 footers that were difficult to beat unless conditions allowed us to plane downwind. CBYRA formed a new "sportboat" class for the ultralight and A-sym boats; I am not sure whether it ever caught on.

So what has happened in the last 20 years, other than the prices of new production boats have increased exponentially while performance has not really improved?
 
#37 ·
Well

The new J70 is proving to be a good bit faster for one with its 111 something rating

For the most part here older boats still get raced the J44 has a big group with deep pocket owners of course Rambler races here a lot also (the 90 is back in action)

Most of the expense in new boats is all the stuff now somehow needed that we did without on older boats like 50,000 dollar wind/navigation systems
 
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