SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

EFI Outlet in cockpit.

5K views 35 replies 7 participants last post by  ebs001 
#1 ·
Not an electrician and learning so go easy on me.

I have numerous 110 outlets on the boat that work under shore power or when the inverter is engaged. All of that works swimmingly.

I had a standard outlet in my cockpit (mind you she's a big 50' boat with a center cokpit and high freeboard) that I thought would be safer with an EFI outlet like one has outdoors on in the bathroom.

Oddly, it works as it should under shore power but does nothing under the inverter or generator (does not work away from shore power). I've tried 2 EFIs. Should it work? Is it something to do with the ground of the boat and shore power?

Just looking for some insight. Thanks!

~Scott
 
#6 ·
It seems likely to me that the inverter isn't hooked up correctly and that the ground and neutral aren't connected when the inverter is on.

BE CAREFUL messing with this stuff. Getting it right with multiple power sources has bitten people.
Ground and neutral are connected/disconnected automatically inside the inverter. No setup option can change this.

To the op:
Using a multimeter - carefully - measure whether there is actually voltage at the outlets when on inverter or generator.
 
#4 ·
No other GFIs on boat at all. That is the only one.

Inverter is the super size - Xantrex Freedom SW3012 12V 3000W Inverter/Charger -. Had it professionally installed.

So likely then the ground and neutral? I'll have the guy check his work if so.

Thanks.
 
#7 ·
If I've got this right, all the other receptacles on the boat will power up with the invertor/genset, other than the one in the cockpit.

First, its not uncommon that an invertor only powers some circuits and not others. More often this is because of capacity. In the OP's case, I'm betting a nickle the electrician intentionally excluded a 110v outlet in the cockpit, assuming one may not want live 110v power in a wet environment while underway. Keeping it out of the circuit would prevent someone below from throwing a switch that ruined the cockpit crew's day.
 
#13 ·
Nothing was wired to keep it from working at select times.

Keeoing it simple, the GFI only works with shore power. Not with inverter or gen. Again, I've tried two GFIs (so that's not it) AND a regular outlet (non-GFI) works under gen and inverter. So it's something to do with my grounding on the boat I guess.... I just don't know.

Inverter is a Xantrex SW300
(Inverter Charger | Freedom SW 3000 Inverter/Charger | Xantrex)

Thanks!
 
#19 ·
Nothing was wired to keep it from working at select times.

Keeoing it simple, the GFI only works with shore power. Not with inverter or gen. Again, I've tried two GFIs (so that's not it) AND a regular outlet (non-GFI) works under gen and inverter. .

Thanks!
Try the GFI on another outlet. Pick an outlet closest to the panel. If it doesn't work there, it might be in how the inverter is wired. I'm assuming the power from the inverter is coming in before the breakers, right?

Sorry I wrote a longer response but try the above first. If it does work there, the GFI is tripping on something else in the line while in the cockpit. Could just be old wiring.

Good luck.
 
#14 ·
Have you put a multi-meter across the terminals at the back of the receptacle, with the invertor running? I suspect its just not getting power. If it is, it's the GFI, but again, I doubt it.

Where does the wire to this GFI come from? Is it dedicated to a breaker on the panel or is it in series with another receptacles? Track it down.

Personally, I would opt for isolating an outdoor receptacle from indoor. If this was done, it remains possible that the cockpit circuit was designed to only get its ground from the shore.
 
#15 ·
Just had another light go off. Not sure if the OP knows that when a GFI receptacle is added, all receptacles that come after it are also protected. You wouldn't need to install another GFI. It's possible that the cockpit is already protected in series, by another GFI installed below.

Again, important to find where the wire to the cockpit receptacle comes from.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Minnie, I asked the same thing early on and the OP said no, this is the only GFCI on this circuit.

One thing I haven't seen answered is whether the GFCI is tripping, or if it just doesn't get power. If it's tripping, then I think it's likely either a) there's a GFCI hiding somewhere on that circuit (sounds silly, but you'd be surprised how often this can happen) or b) the GFCI isn't compatible with the inverter. If it isn't getting power at all, then I agree with the suggestion above, either a) for some reason, the inverter isn't getting power when the AC is turned off, b) the inverter is broken and not outputting any power, or c) there's a problem in the wiring between the inverter and the GFCI.

In reality, even if the problem is somewhere in the power distribution system (i.e., everything up to the GFCI recepticle), a bad/incompatible GFCI will also cause problems. I'd do as suggested by others, above and make sure there is power at each step along the way from the battery to the inverter, and from the inverter to the GFCI. Just because the thing was professionally installed doesn't mean it was done properly, nor does it mean it was actually tested under battery power.

The following is from the owner's manual for the inverter:

GFCI Requirements

A GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) is a device that deenergizes a circuit when a current to ground exceeds a specified value that is less than that required to open the circuit breaker. GFCIs are intended to protect people from electric shocks and are usually required in wet or damp locations.

Installation in recreational vehicles requires GFCI protection of certain branch circuits. Consult all applicable codes.

Tested GFCIs

Compliance with UL standards requires that Xantrex test and recommend specific GFCIs for use on the output of the inverter. Table 1 lists models that have been tested and will function properly when connected to the AC output of the Freedom SW 3000.

Table 1 Tested GFCI Models

Manufacturer Model Number
Hubbell GFR5252WA
Leviton 8599-GY
Pass & Seymour 1594-W

Looking at the manual in more detail, I see that the inverter has both AC and DC inputs (see, e.g., testing step 7 on page 37). Given the OP's description of the problem, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the inverter was hooked up for the charger functions, but that the DC input wasn't hooked up.
 
#20 ·
The DC input has to be hooked up for it to charge - there is only one set of DC inputs. The are used for both inverter input and charging output, should be 4/0 on this inverter.

Is the GFI one of the three listed in the manual? If not that may well be the problem. Inverters do not work with many GFI's.

OP states power is at the outlet as it works with a standard outlet on both shore power and inverter power. This tells me it is most likely installed correctly.
 
#21 ·
Note everyone that the problem occurs when the source of power is to the generator or the inverter/charger. There is no problem when connected to shore power and the outlet works when a normal receptacle is installed.

I am thinking that the problem occurs because of the way the neutral is grounded in the inverter and in the generator. It's interesting to note that in another thread someone else had a GFCI receptacle trip on ground fault when he plugged his shore power code into a GFI. He too had an inverter that switched automatically from inverter power, the default SOP, to utility power. The two may or may not be related but it seems an odd coincidence that neither input A/C nor output A/C can be connected to a GFCI when you have a Xantrex auto-switch inverter.

If one connects Xantex's inverter with the built in GFI receptacles to the ships power you get reverse polarity indication on your A/C panel.
 
#22 ·
You can have a GFCI outlet with the A/C input and the op is not having a problem with this. He is only having problems with the inverter output.

What do you mean you get reverse polarity from connecting the built-in GFI's to ship's power? I have not had a problem with this on many inverter installs.
 
#24 ·
You can have a GFCI outlet with the A/C input and the op is not having a problem with this. He is only having problems with the inverter output.

What do you mean you get reverse polarity from connecting the built-in GFI's to ship's power? I have not had a problem with this on many inverter installs.
The reverse polarity light comes on. Check it out on cruisers world. Note that this occurs only when the inverter has a built in Gfi receptacle and that receptacle is used to power the ships power
 
#26 · (Edited)
FAQs
Power Inverters


Voltage measurement issues (AC output)

I've installed the modified sine wave inverter and it's working okay. However, the output voltage doesn't seem right. There is 124 vac between the hot and neutral pins but the safety ground is not at 0 volts with respect to the neutral pin. Instead, the safety ground appears to float about halfway between the neutral and hot pin voltage. Please explain what's going on!

This FAQ applies to Xpower, PROwatt, Portawattz, Jazz and Xantrex inverters, including the inverters integral to Powerpacks.

Your inverter is designed to have loads plugged directly into it and not be permanently connected to an AC distribution system. The fact that the inverter is not a permanent installation means the US NEC (United States National Electrical Code) doesn't apply, and the NEC is the main place where the requirement resides for single-phase 120Vac or 240Vac systems to have neutral bonded to earth. The US standard for inverters of this sort, UL458, does not have a requirement for a bonded neutral on the output of inverters.

Regarding the voltage that the you are measuring, the ground does not float halfway, rather the neutral is not at 0 volts. The grounding is correct, in that loads plugged in will have their chassis held at the same ground potential as the chassis of the inverter, but the neutral has approximately 60V on it instead of the usual 0V. The impact of that is minimal, since wiring and equipment connected to the neutral side of the circuit are required by safety standards to be treated as if they were at 120Vac. This is because there are many receptacles that are wired backwards or 2-prong plugs that are not polarized. As a result the 60V neutral is not accessible to the user, and any shock hazard presented is mitigated by lack of access.

The main safety agencies, CSA, UL, and ETL, have all approved inverters with this half-voltage on the neutral scheme, and the manuals contain warnings not to AC hardwire any of these inverters.

The above I got from cruisersnet forum but I believe is from Xantrex.




The inverters you have hard wired are made to hard wire and are inverter/chargers. They have a grounded neutral not like the inverters above which have a floating neutral.

I suspect that the OPs problem is that his inverter and his generator also have floating neutrals and half voltage on the neutrals.
 
#27 ·
Huge thanks for all the input to this thread. Sorry for the delay in stating that. Also sorry for not responding. Business travels have kept me from the boat.

- The cockpit EFI is the only one on the boat. EFI is a standard $15 outdoor unit from Home Depot.

- That outlet does have 2 or 3 other outlets in its chain. The boat overall has maybe 15 outlets. All work well under all power options.

- She's a 50' center cockpit with a super high freeboard, well covered and rarely wet. It would take a hose or a downpour to get water on it. I just thought an EFI would be "safer" outside.

- That outlet originally was a standard unit (like all below deck). It worked well with shore power, gen and inverter. It worked full time as other outlets did. There has been no extra wiring to route around it for any special reason or safety concern.

- Battery bank is 6 - T125s powering Xantrex 3000. Shore is 30w.

EFI simply won't power on anything other than shore but other outlets in chain and on boat continue under all options.

Weird. I guess I could try a 3rd EFI. ???

If the green ground that terminated at that EFI box is bad / not grounded on the boat but only at the 30A inlet/galvanic isolator, that would suggest that a regular outlet would work but an EFI wouldn't when not at shore. Agree?

I'll have to call the electrician. ;-)
 
#31 ·
Huge thanks for all the input to this thread. Sorry for the delay in stating that. Also sorry for not responding. Business travels have kept me from the boat.

- The cockpit EFI is the only one on the boat. EFI is a standard $15 outdoor unit from Home Depot.

- That outlet does have 2 or 3 other outlets in its chain. The boat overall has maybe 15 outlets. All work well under all power options.

- She's a 50' center cockpit with a super high freeboard, well covered and rarely wet. It would take a hose or a downpour to get water on it. I just thought an EFI would be "safer" outside.

- That outlet originally was a standard unit (like all below deck). It worked well with shore power, gen and inverter. It worked full time as other outlets did. There has been no extra wiring to route around it for any special reason or safety concern.

- Battery bank is 6 - T125s powering Xantrex 3000. Shore is 30w.

EFI simply won't power on anything other than shore but other outlets in chain and on boat continue under all options.

Weird. I guess I could try a 3rd EFI. ???

If the green ground that terminated at that EFI box is bad / not grounded on the boat but only at the 30A inlet/galvanic isolator, that would suggest that a regular outlet would work but an EFI wouldn't when not at shore. Agree?

I'll have to call the electrician. ;-)
Does the GFCI trip when you connect a load or can you not reset it even with no load?
If the GFCI can be reset but trips after you connect a load then you have a power source problem.
 
#30 · (Edited)
. Without a ground it will not provide 5 mA tripping of course, but it will act as a normal outlet.
This is not correct. The GFCI receptacle will trip with a 5 mA ground fault. Any GFI measures the amperage difference between the hot and the neutral. What it won't do is trip the breaker should the hot ground out and there is no other path to ground. The fact that it will trip on a ground fault is why the electrical code allows a GFCI receptacle to be installed to replace a two prong outlet found for example in knob and tube wiring.
 
#33 ·
I cannot reset it, even with no load. The reset and test buttons have no effect (when off of shore power). I'm yet to stick my voltage meter in it when not on shore power. I'll look this week.
 
#35 ·
I believe it pops but I'll head down today or tomorrow, plug in a light then disconnect shore and see to be sure. I assume it pops becasue I have to reset it when I reconnect to shore.
 
#36 ·
In post #17 GFCIs compatable with this inverter are listed. Many inverters are wired with a floating neutral and thus have voltage between ground and neutral. It would appear that not all GFCIs like this - they trip. It would appear that you will need to install one of the recommended GFCIs.

Note that the your Honda 2000 is an inverter , also with a floating neutral.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top