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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...
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Thread: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston... Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-19-2013 11:48 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
I attended the 2 day Safety at Sea Seminar @ the Naval Academy in '98. I came away with a lot of good information. It's true that you can read much of it in books and on the internet. It's just a little more difficult to ask a book a question or network with other sailors and exchange information. Having attended alot of conferences and trade shows in my career, I've always felt that if I came away with one idea that I could put to use, it was worth my time. In '98 I was able to meet Ron Trossbach, who graciously agreed to come aboard my boat and do a courtesy inspection then sat in the cockpit with us and discussed his recommendations over a cocktail. It was like attending a Master's class. I still have all the notes I took.
Ron is a great guy. I've not met him, only spoken and corresponded with him several times. And he was gracious enough to send me a couple of ISAF/Safety books - signed by him of course.

I'd definitely serve up a few D&S's to pick his brain in person.
06-19-2013 01:21 AM
chef2sail
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
I blew by this thread a few times in the past several days. Never read a post.

Opened it yesterday and finished reading it today.

Great thread. Thanks to all the posters. Thanks for the links to other boat-loss stories.

I learned a lot.

Biggest lesson I learned was to never start an argument with chef...he don't give up. I got a brother who argues like that and I have to kick him out of the house and make him go home sometimes because he doesn't think he has convinced me that he's right and I'm wrong.
Great contribution really worthwhile. Look forward to more of your critical insights .
06-18-2013 10:45 PM
aeventyr60
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

I feel great comfort knowing that there is NO Coast Guard Units available to rescue me. The only thing I can rely on is ME!. My boat preparation, my seamanship, my study.
06-18-2013 10:30 PM
fryewe
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

I blew by this thread a few times in the past several days. Never read a post.

Opened it yesterday and finished reading it today.

Great thread. Thanks to all the posters. Thanks for the links to other boat-loss stories.

I learned a lot.

Biggest lesson I learned was to never start an argument with chef...he don't give up. I got a brother who argues like that and I have to kick him out of the house and make him go home sometimes because he doesn't think he has convinced me that he's right and I'm wrong.
06-18-2013 09:01 PM
wolfenzee
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

When ever I see a boat come in from obviously a long passage I ask to "pick thier brains" I also ask questions of anyone I know who has made and/or has significant experience in long passages.....knowledge is valuable....you just have to be careful for the same reasons you are in information from forums.
06-18-2013 08:48 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
.....In '98 I was able to meet Ron Trossbach, who graciously agreed to come aboard my boat and do a courtesy inspection then sat in the cockpit with us and discussed his recommendations over a cocktail. It was like attending a Master's class. I still have all the notes I took.
What a great opportunity. Ron was one of the instructors in the class that I took before the race a few years back. He was excellent. Retired Admiral, who has sailed his own boat across the pond at least once, I believe.

He demonstrated the inflatable pfd and discussed issues like crotch straps, which is a good example of something one would not just know from experience. How many sailors with thousands of miles offshore have ever actually been in the water in a pfd? How many have actually tried to board a liferaft from the water? I think this course may deserve a bit more credit that we've collective acknowledged. The guy who did the section on seasickness, gave his experience in the Fastnet. It was much more compelling than any book.

Ron was wearing his personal pfd and it was time for new CO2 cartridges, so he thought he would fully demonstrate an inflation. He is wearing it during his talk, so when he's done, he pulls the cord. It stutters and puffs, but barely inflates at all. It was shot. What a great experience for everyone in the room, including him!!!
06-18-2013 08:37 PM
wolfenzee
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

This all boils down to the biggest problem isn't the way the boats are equipped but the mindset of the sailors and as this world is becoming more and more automated with computers/smart phones/chart plotters etc doing more and more thinking for us real down to earth seamanship (something that is needed when the power goes out and/or circumstances are more than a micro chip can handle) is going out the window.
People just need to be better educated as to what is possible offshore....it's not the same, by far...and when it gets really dicey some people can't handle it and just freeze up.
06-18-2013 08:31 PM
Tempest
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

I attended the 2 day Safety at Sea Seminar @ the Naval Academy in '98. I came away with a lot of good information. It's true that you can read much of it in books and on the internet. It's just a little more difficult to ask a book a question or network with other sailors and exchange information. Having attended alot of conferences and trade shows in my career, I've always felt that if I came away with one idea that I could put to use, it was worth my time. In '98 I was able to meet Ron Trossbach, who graciously agreed to come aboard my boat and do a courtesy inspection then sat in the cockpit with us and discussed his recommendations over a cocktail. It was like attending a Master's class. I still have all the notes I took.
06-18-2013 08:05 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
That's certainly a very reasonable, prudent approach... However, until such time as government actually does start coming after us sailors for rescue reimbursement, the necessity for people to take a 2-day course to "avoid the exposure to reimbursement costs" would seem to be a moot point...
Of course it's moot. However, its one premise of the discussion. Should they do so, not will they do so.

Quote:
Sorry, but I have to chuckle a bit at the notion of a "2-Day Course" being of any real value - especially given the extraordinary wealth of information already available to anyone who can read...
I get the point and agree with it narrowly. The course would not make one a competent offshore passagemaker. But it would firmly get the attention of many and could prevent the ignorant from taking on what they don't know. The remaining few that deserve the Darwin award would remain unaffected, but I believe it would improve the current condition.

I believe the inspections would be even more valuable. I'm certain there are sailors that would be willing to make improvements they are not even aware should be made.
06-18-2013 07:58 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Minnie,

Sorry about the insurance crack.
Thank you. The 54ft boat crack was uncalled for as well.

Quote:
I guess because it came from me and not Jon it becomes offensive so let's try and make the insurance the point of the discussion instead of me
Nice try. I don't recall such a stupid quip by Jon.

Quote:
And the point of that is what? To shut me up?
Thin skinned. The point was to be absolutely clear that I disagree with you.

Quote:
We all get opinions on here rich or poor, founded or unfounded. Is many 4 ? And if many disagree what difference does that make if taken from the same demographics. Propose this to the CF and they would laugh at you. Propose this to the CG and they would all disagree with you.
You're entitled to it. I'm entitled to disagree with it. Exactly what proposal of mine would the CF laugh at and CG disagree with? Frankly, reimbursement is up to the tax payer, not the CG.

Quote:
I showed your post to the Group Commander Sector Baltimore and he laughed.
"Amateurs doing rescues. We will be out rescuing them." Was his direct quote.
When did I suggest amateurs do the rescues? I recall replying to another posters recommendation. I also pointed out that not all rescue agencies are for profit. For that matter, how many TowBoat rescues have they had to perform after these groups took over a significant part of their previous responsibilities. It was an interesting point, but I don't recall making it. Unless you can show me the post of mine that both made this proposal and the big shot laugh, I call BS.

Quote:
You proposed the insurance idea, not me. That's the point. It's a red herring which will never be doable and will never fly. The CG doesn't want private amateur rescuers out there there they will now have to rescue. Who regulates that industry? Make people pay for their rescues.
A straw man is not a proposal. By definition its an argument put forth for the purpose of being debated. Debate away, just back off the emotional nonsense, you are extremely thin skinned. Again, I did not propose amateur rescues. I would be open to them, but did not propose them.

Quote:
Answer my previous posts real questions in steady of a peripheral issue. Who pays for airplane crash rescues? Fire fighter rescues? Automobile crash rescues? Why are we creating a special class for sailors? You can't get people to buy basic boat insurance how will you enforce this even if you could get a bureaucratic system set up?
Airplane crews are fully trained. People have no choice but live in houses that might burn. Automobiles are all inspected. Sailors are exempt from each. No training required, going offshore is fully optional and no inspections are required for recreational use. Thanks for helping make my point.

Quote:
All this because a sailor who felt they were in trouble called the CG to rescue them. Even when the FACTS show this minimal and has shown a flat or steady decrease over the last 5 years. You are going t o create this huge problem, when there really isn't one. The same suspects do this'd cry over and over again. There is no indication there is a lack of training overall. It is a few zealots here who claim that every time there is an incident, but the figures show an actual decline. That's indisputable no matter which way you want to interpret it. I almost cringe, after I see someone has lost their life ( I pray for them first) or someone has been rescued. It seems to bring out all the sailors who want to criticize the rescued/ dead and usually before many facts are known.
Beat the drum all you like on the overall decline in rescues. You've drawn absolutely no correlation to the number of offshore blue water recreational rescues. I wish you could, so we could put an end to it. I would be delighted to know they've declined. I doubt it, however.

Quote:
I am for safety, I am for seamanship and hopefully I practice the best to my ability on my boat when I travel offshore. I know the penalty for not doing this is the ultimate for me and even rose for my crew. That's enough for me. I don't need one SN nanny telling me what I need on have on board, while they sleep singlehanded, or that I can't have electronics or I need to purchase special insurance to be rescued.
You just can't get over it. SN nanny. You're too much. Let's just be clear on this much. I don't care what you do or don't do. Nanny.

To clarify the straw man, it doesn't say you must buy insurance to be rescued. Everyone would be rescued in the straw man. It suggested there be minimum standards to avoid the obligation to partially reimburse the cost of it.

Quote:
The bigger disaster to me would be someone not to call the CG for help when they need it because they cant pay for it. That shouldn't enter the equation.
This is a valid point. Perhaps the only one you've offered, particularly without vitriol.

Quote:
In the safety courses I have taken, one of he first rules is always to call if you get in trouble. Even is you don't need rescue call to let them know that you are experiencing trouble.
Agreed.

Quote:
Having traveled offshore myself enough to know you are by yourself it is comforting to know that should a disaster befall me for whatever reason, the CG is there for advice or rescue. No questions asked and no criticism. The big risk for me was when crossing the Atlantic where there really s no CG
.

So then where is the magic line where you feel everyone is entitled to it? Is it 50 miles, 100, 200 or is it just coincidentally the limits of fuel capacity of the helo? What if we had a helo that could circle the globe? Would we all expect them to get us anywhere? Where does the obligation end?

Quote:
I see no reason to change the system we have or incorporate another fee to further deter or prevent the average sailor from sailing and make it a rich mans game only. I see no need for further restrictions or training. The same people will avail themselves as now, it doesn't prevent stupid.

The funny thing is and I talk to members of the Baltimore and Cape May CG stations frequently as I have friends in command positions in both, that this is a non issue to them. They don't see an increase in rescues, in fact with the cuts it has affected their training dollars on the water, and some sorties are good to help them practice their skills.

These are the professionals talking, the ones laying their lives on he line as was mentioned. Not the musings and shop talk of a few sailors, who take in incident or sinking and blow it out of proportion.
You see no arrogance to suggesting any conversation that disagrees with your point of view as "musings and shop talk"?

Further, you don't see any disconnect in the CG's point of view. They are not personally paying for these rescues. The rescues are, in fact, keeping them employed.

Quote:
Lets go back to your disrespectful statement here, you are right, but the ones who agree with me, mainly the CG are the opinions which count.
I said I disagree with you and that remains a fact. You always have a very tough time with that, from anyone.
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