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Another America�s Cup entry destroyed

38K views 386 replies 55 participants last post by  shadowraiths 
#1 ·
#319 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Yea, the CG got nothin to do with it......

Safety ideas become rules for Americas Cup | SBS World News

The US Coast Guard has insisted all America's Cup safety ideas discussed following a training death become rules for the sailing contest.

Safety recommendations made by America's Cup regatta director Iain Murray in the wake of British yachtsman Andrew Simpson's death will be made rules of the event, officials said on Thursday.

Tom Ehman, vice commodore of the host Golden Gate Yacht Club, said the 37 ideas to make the powerful AC72 catamarans safer were part of an overall safety plan submitted to the US Coast Guard.

"At the end of the day, it's the Coast Guard's call to give us a regatta permit. If we don't get a permit we don't have a race," Ehman said.
And there was concern the regatta permit might be turned down by the Coast Guard in the wake of Simpson's death and a spectacular capsizing of an Oracle team AC72 on San Francisco Bay last year in which no one was hurt.

"Without some of these things that Iain recommends, yes, there was concern that we would not get the permit, and they told us so," Ehman said.

"It behooves us to be very cautious and the Coast Guard supports that."

Simpson, an Olympic gold medallist and crew member of Swedish team Artemis, died when Artemis' AC72 nose-dived while training on San Francisco Bay on May 9.

He was apparently trapped beneath a solid piece of the boat and could not be revived after being found. The exact cause of the accident is still under review by Artemis and by an America's Cup panel headed by Murray.

Buoyancy aids, body armour and helmet beacon locator devices were among the recommendations announced Wednesday by Murray -- all ideas discussed by teams made more urgent after the death of Simpson two weeks ago.

"A lot of these are things the teams have been discussing implementing on their own. The tragic loss of Andrew Simpson just sped up the process," Ehman said.

The Coast Guard permit is scheduled to be issued next month, a timetable that did not change because of the tragedy.

Among the changes in rules was a 10-knot lower wind limit, to 20 knots maximum during the Louis Vuitton Cup challenger series in July and August and to 23 knots maximum during the America's Cup proper in September.
Brief gusts will not wipe out a race but sustained higher winds might, Ehman said.
 
#331 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Yea, the CG got nothin to do with it......

Safety ideas become rules for Americas Cup | SBS World News

The US Coast Guard has insisted all America's Cup safety ideas discussed following a training death become rules for the sailing contest.
Well, anything's possible, of course... But I simply have a hard time imagining - barring any further tragedy, of course - the CG denying the permit for the AC as things currently stand...

At the 2011 Superboat World Championships in Key West, 2 drivers were killed on the first day of competition, a Wednesday...





On Friday, a 3rd driver was killed in another crash, the 9th racer to be killed at Key West over the previous 27 years... Nevertheless, the event continued without interruption or modification though the finals on Sunday...

In 2012, the race was back, with the Superboat Unlimited class running faster than ever before...

So, if history is any guide, the USCG doesn't appear to have much of a track record of denying permits to these sorts of events...

Pretty spooky to my untrained eye how close to the exit of that turn some of that spectator fleet is allowed to be, but we have to presume the Coasties know best, I suppose... (grin)

 
#325 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

If the NOAA report predicts an SCA (25+ kts); and the USCG issued the permit; who's responsible if there is another CATastrophic failure even if the winds were below the 20kt limit. What about apparent wind? Is there a 20kt limit on that too??
 
#327 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

If the NOAA report predicts an SCA (25+ kts); and the USCG issued the permit; who's responsible if there is another CATastrophic failure even if the winds were below the 20kt limit. What about apparent wind? Is there a 20kt limit on that too??
For what I saw in Valencia on the monohull finals, the boat are on the water and the teams and the race director discuss endlessly if there are conditions or not, if the wind is going to increase or lower and only when all are in agreement the race begins.

As in Valencia or S Francisco it is very easy to have winds over the limits those discussions and waiting time can be quite long with many racing days cancelled after spectators being there all day hoping to see a race that never happens.

Quite boring I can tell you.

Regards

Paulo
 
#328 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

If the organizing committee is worried about too much wind, they only have to use the anemometer on GGYC's race deck - that thing never reads over 20kts! But seriously, those of us who regularly race on San Francisco Bay know that the City Front courses rarely exceed 20kts - you have to be in the slot before you get the famous 30kt afternoon winds. I think that the organizing committee has a pretty safe bet of meeting their TV schedule. I say they should race in any wind condition. The venue and wind conditions were well known before the first NA put pen to paper (or is it "mouse to CAD"?). So if a team did a poor job of preparing for the race than they should be willing to suffer the consequences.
 
#329 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Hmm, many times the strongest winds on the bay are shown to be between Alcatraz and the Cityfront (on the wind modeling website); which is right where the 72's will be racing. If there is an ebb it's some of the heaviest chop on the bay too (aside from the east side near Berkeley). But you might be right when you say that the GGYC will proclaim it safe to race based on their race deck amemometer (hope so).
 
#330 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Not sure what model you are looking at but those of us who race on the Bay know that the City side is where you go for wind relief. The shear line runs from Blackaller to Alcatraz and on to just outside Blossom Rock. If you think it's windy by the City, you ought to try a mark rounding at Harding Rock on the same day!
 
#334 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Not sure what model you are looking at but those of us who race on the Bay know that the City side is where you go for wind relief. The shear line runs from Blackaller to Alcatraz and on to just outside Blossom Rock. If you think it's windy by the City, you ought to try a mark rounding at Harding Rock on the same day!
SF Ports website that is now at SJSU. It WAS a great resource for wind data both current and archived but now it only has the most current wind data; the archive page has not been working correctly since they moved it from the government website.

While I agree that the Blossom Rock area is lighter, the wind does funnel through at Alcatraz. I'd say the shear runs from Fort Point down to Aquatic Park/Pier 39, but out near Alcatraz is right in the middle of The Slot so I don't understand why you'd say it's much lighter to the south of Alcatraz.

I'm not saying I disagree with you about there being even more wind out near Harding Rock; but to say the east side of Alcatraz is inside of the wind shear line, to me is incorrect (to my experience). The last two times we watched Oracle go by us at 35+kts (within 200 yards) flying both hulls was right between Alcatraz and the Cityfront. Wind was in the low 20s.



I'd show you where I'm referring to if there was access to archives but as of right now there is not; and on the many days I've sailed in heavy wind and later checked the archived data I'd say it was accurate. Often times the heaviest wind vectors are shown just to the SE of Alcatraz with a huge easterly shift compared to the predominant wind direction. Latitude 38 has a saying "counterclockwise for comfort" for times when sailors take guests because tacking through the heavy wind on the south side of the bay is more challenging than tacking up through Raccoon Strait. I don't disagree with that statement.
 
#333 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Lets be honest. The CG knows very little about sailing in the first place, much less sailing these beasts. All they are doing is agreeing with the recommendations presented.
 
#337 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Ah, the SJSU wind model. That model is normalized to a 200 foot altitude. My boat is only 50' tall so my anemometer never records the modeled wind speeds. Yes, there is a wind shadow directly behind Alcatraz but it is well gone before you get to "Red 2". Interestingly, the wind begins to separate from the water at the windward side of the island and it is actually windier mid channel than right at the island. MrsB, not noted for her heavy air sailing, will start making comments around Blossom Rock if we're experiencing a building breeze and that's my cue to go up the City Front and not up the slot proper.

Richard Spindler will tell you that the slot is demarked by a line going from the South Tower and past the north east side of Alcatraz. The other side is the line from the North Tower and past Pt. Blunt. All outside of the race course area. The counter clockwise notion is for sailors to work their way up past Sausalito and cross the slot at Yellow Bluff and then make for Chrissy Field. This is the shortest distance to cross at the slot and wind abates at Chrissy because it's protected by Fort Point. The run down the City Front is all in that same lighter air.

I've must have raced GGYC's City Front Course at least fifty times as well as seeing 45s do their Grand Prix thing and I'm having a hard time remembering a time when the breeze was much over 20kts. Maybe it's just me. If that's the case, the organizing committee ought to put me on one of the boats to ensure that breeze never gets too strong.;)


Yes, I've enjoyed a certain amount of sucess racing GGYC's City Front courses
 
#338 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

George if you were not aware; the AC72 course is expanded, it will run to the east end of Alcatraz/Pier 39. I realize that the "citifront race course" is more protected (west of St Francis), I have sailed the area but that's not the area of concern for the AC72 race course. I know by the many times I have sailed up along the city that as soon as you get to Pier 39 and turn to the left towards the bridge by comparison of relative windspeed you're in the slot. The boat takes a strong heel and the windspeeds come up to 20+ right outside the Pier 39 marina entrance. I've seen boats go south of Pier 39 to raise sail; and we usually go south of Pier 39 to Gybe or catch the wind shadow benind Alcatraz. When Oracle is practicing they usually turn around just south of Pier 39 and then go back upwind through this area and then to the NW; areas where the wind is clear and strong. I don't think they are practicing in this zone without knowledge of where the racing course is going to be.
 
#339 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I think it's accepted that people will die in high speed events because the level of risk involved is plainly visible. When a sailing accident like Artemis happens it "should not have caused death" because it is not perceived as something that is life threatening. When a race car driver dies everyone shrugs shoulders and says 'it happens'. When it happens in a sailing event it just is not viewed as taking risks that could result in a death despite the fact that they are pushing the limits of their craft and are surrounded by water.
 
#340 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I think that dude wrecked his boat because that sailboat (right side of picture) pulled in front of him :p :

 
#341 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

It seems that the most probable is that you are going to have wind limits 10K lower than the ones of the protocol, at least this statement from the NZ team seems to indicate so:

Emirates Team New Zealand welcomes the finding of the committee reviewing the fatal incident involving the Artemis Racing AC72. The committee's recommendations were released today in San Francisco.

Managing director Grant Dalton said the team supports the review committee's recommendations in principle. "They are prudent and reasonable," he said.

"The committee has done some remarkable work in only six days. The details still have to be worked on but we see nothing that will adversely affect the event.

"We have confidence in our boat - design, engineering and construction - and the sailing and support crews. We have invested a lot of time and money on safety."


News Story

unless max wind speed is a detail:D and this is only a strategical move kind of: We agree with everything, there is just a little detail about the max wind speed....:D
 
#342 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

An interesting article on Yacht de (translated):

The America's Cup Management has published two weeks after the accidental death of Andrew Simpson, as a result of a crash of Artemis Racing, is a long list of control recommendations, which are now to be evaluated by the ones that can do so, the organizing Golden Gate Yacht Club and the challengers.

In essence, there are calls for a neutral investigation of all AC72 boats and their wing sails, a significant reduction of the wind limits at ten knots (Max: 23 knots) and an extension of the security provisions for the equipment on board the catamaran and on board escort boats.

Especially the demand for the limited wind limit it is likely to have a dramatic effect,on case that should actually be used. The lower limit above which no race can be started, would changed a few weeks before the start of the Louis Vuitton Cup, will change the format drastically, one that the challengers have prepared in different ways. It could punish individual teams that had in the construction of their boats considered the possibility of strong winds and the corresponding trade-offs were part of the design - especially in what regards the Zealander Grant Dalton team. ...

"The proposal covers the dilemma in which the organizers are stuck," says the two-time America's Cup participant Tim Kröger, "they have to react after the deadly accident, but changing halfway rules of the game it is from a sporting perspective questionable decision, unfortunately showing how wrong all this is"...

Another statement of Iain Murray reveals how the teams will still remain focused in their new high-risk sports, against all recommendations and rule changes at: "None of the recommendations can ever eliminate the risk of injury or death, it is a risky by nature activity. and participants must accept full responsibility for all risks involved. "

It is not yet clear whether the team Artemis Racing and Luna Rossa will choose to participate. Both teams have been granted a further reflection. Team New Zealand is considering not only exiting as it is struggling with the new rules. It seems impossible to find a compromise that is fair regarding the desires and needs of all participants.


America's Cup: Neues Spiel, neues Glück? - Sport*|*YACHT.DE

Troubled waters on the AC, no doubt.

Meanwhile the German kids from the Youth team has already granted permission to participate individually (not supported by Germany). Now they have to found the needed 100 000 euros.

and more:

"You may have seen catamarans fly a hull, but during practice, Emirates Team New Zealand can get both hulls out of the water. For just a moment Friday, in a little over 12-knot breeze, the boat was riding on its hydrofoil.

At higher wind speeds, the New Zealand boat can foil downwind giving it a tremendous speed advantage. But on Friday, America's Cup organizers said that to make the racing safer, they're considering moving up the racing time from 1 p.m. to noon, when the winds are not as strong.
"I guess one of the tragedys for us, a little bit, in terms of the wind speed change, is that we've actually simulated those higher wind speeds in our training because that's what we were coming to," said New Zealand Teams Managing Director Grant Dalton. "So, we're having to give up quite a lot to go to a lower wind speed in terms of our training regime and what we've learned and our boat to a certain extent as well."


http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=9115543

"The four syndicates are now weighing up the 37 safety recommendations made by the America's Cup review committee that were released yesterday."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/8714370/Team-NZ-to-increase-speed-after-fruitful-trial

As the review committee does not have the mandate to make changes to the Protocol which governs the race, most of the recommendations will need mutual agreement from the teams before they can be implemented and Barker expects there will be some interesting discussions at the competitor meetings over the coming week.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10886009
 
#343 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

At least Oracle has until September to make the necessary changes/improvements to their boat IF the 23kt rule goes in effect. :D I feel the most sorry for ETNZ because they are the favorite among the challengers and have trained for the 25-30kt winds that would be expected.
 
#344 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

An interesting article:

"Non-Negotiable?
According to Ehman all the Recommendations are part of a safety plan for the event, and as such are non-negotiable by the teams, since safety will not be compromised.

Team insiders spoken to by Sail-World don't quite see it that way, splitting the Recommendations into three areas - those that involve modification to the AC72 Class Rule which governs the measurement and design of the 72ft wingsailed catamaran that will be sailed for the first time in the 34th America's Cup. Changes to that AC72 rule can only be done with the consent of all the teams - a simple majority is not enough.

A second group of recommendations are the changes to the Protocol, which governs the rules under which the racing for the America's Cup and Louis Vuitton Cup's will be conducted. Changes to the Protocol can be made by the Regatta Director after a majority vote by the Teams.

The third group is Safety Rules, which can be set arbitrarily by the Regatta Director, and to which his officials and the teams, where they are affected, must comply.

Under Ehman's logic all the 37 Recommendations come under the Safety category, and are not subject to any negotiation or amendment. 'As for whether there will be votes on Class Rule amendments and Protocol Amendments - No. These Recommendations will become Rules.'

'These are Safety Recommendations by the Regatta Director, and they will become part of the regatta permit and therefore Rules.' He adds that until that formal process is concluded by the Coast Guard, the recommendations are just that, and are for the guidance of teams during the training period now under way.

'The Coast Guard needs to ensure that the field of play is safe, that it is safe for the competitors, and also that the event is conducted safely for spectators as well. It is concerned with the overall safe conduct of the event.'

Ehman's view aside, the bulk of the recommendations actually do fall under the Safety category and many don't directly affect the teams at all, such as whether mark boats are used, as currently, or inflatable marks as recommended for race management - evidence that the Review Committee has looked beyond just the Artemis and Oracle incidents.

Ehman says most of the cost of the Recommendations will fall on the Organisers. These include having to devise ways of adopting LiveLine, the GPS based tracking system used for umpiring and television to run off the power available within an inflatable mark for GPS positioning. 'There are requirements of the Organising Committee, that are onerous, but at the end of the day it is safety first,' he adds.

Wind limit reduction no surprise
The process to be followed by the Coast Guard is to either approve or reject America's Cup Regatta Management's application (through the Golden Gate Yacht Club). 'They don't dictate,' explains Ehman.

Essentially what is being lodged is a Safety Plan, and it is against that laudable backdrop that some of the Recommendations are curious.

The reduction in wind limits will also go through, despite being a 10knot reduction over the ridiculously high figure previously set of 33kts. 'We wondered how it would take them to wake up to that one,' Emirates Team NZ's Grant Dalton remarked in a television news interview.

The new wind limit of 20kts for the Louis Vuitton Cup Round Robins creeping to 23 kts for the America's Cup Match will still need a Protocol change. The new limit is a couple of knots below the international standard used in the Olympics and World Championships. Although it applies before the start only, the racing can still be cancelled after the race has started for safety issues.
....

Contrary to other reports the lower wind limit for the regatta has not changed - and cannot except by a majority vote of the teams. Of some concern is the ability to have variable start times, possibly based on forecasts but also with the perspective that one team might try an influence the start time to get 'their' conditions.

Ehman points out that if the teams do have concerns in that respect, all they have to do is to get together as sort out a new and stronger lower wind limit. 'It is not a safety issue,' he adds."

Sail-World.com : America's Cup: Review Recommendations not expected to be an easy meal

Funny, I thought the protocol could only be changed if all agree. I will have to look better at it.

.....
 
#345 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Yes, they are right:

14. PROTOCOL AMENDMENTS
14.1. GGYC and the Challenger of Record may amend this Protocol with the approval of a majority of the Competitor Forum.


It remains to be known who will have a right to vote since the ones that give up will not have that right. If Luna Rossa and Artemis will go out of the race it will remain on the NZ hands the right to accept any modification.

Anyway, it is clear to me that the boats are incredible but the development and costs are too high to make this one the right format.

I believe the major error was to make two different boats, one for the series, other for the America's cup. That inflated costs. It would have been more interesting in what regards the number of teams to have all, series and AC, raced on the same boat )maybe a 60ft boat) like it used to happen with the mono-hulls.

That way the boats could have a racing future outside the AC cup and be used on other series or types of races, like the previous boats. I can't see what future these AC 72 will have outside the Cup. They are just not in enough number and are too expensive to maintain or repair.

...
 
#346 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

The reason for the 45's was to reduce cost for the AC series races. Since this format was optional I think they wanted cost to be as little as possible and make everything able to fit in shipping containers.

A 10kt reduction in windspeed from 30kts to 20kts is a ~50% reduction in power since sail force on a wing is proportional to the square of velocity. Seems like boats designed to capture up to 30kts of wind will be underpowered now relative to boats that were not or are still under construction.
 
#348 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I love how the Kiwis just stay relatively quiet on the safety issues and keep working. I would give CD's dog's left testicle to sail like those guys.
I agree they are doggedly:) tenacious and grind away. I have admired their program for years and its one of my bucket list places to visit someday.
 
#349 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

"Andrew 'Bart' Simpson's team, the Swedish America's Cup challenger Artemis Racing is to try and take part in the elimination trials which start in San Francisco in four weeks, but they do not expect to be able to race until up to a month after that."

Artemis in race to make America?s Cup start line - Sailing - More Sports - The Independent

That is a bit confusing:rolleyes:

They explain it better here:

America's Cup: "Eine störende und kolossale Pleite" - Sport*|*YACHT.DE

America's Cup: Artemis macht weiter, doch Chaos droht - Sport*|*YACHT.DE

You guys are going to have the "pleasure" to see ghost races, where a AC72 will have to compete against a non existent boat to qualify:D:D:D

""We are working around-the-clock to get our new boat ready, in the water and to prepare our team to race" said Paul Cayard, CEO of Artemis Racing. "We still have a mountain to climb, but our plan is to launch our new boat in early July and get ourselves in a position where we can race by the end of the month."

That leaves just Emirates Team New Zealand and the Prada-backed Italian team Luna Rossa to take part in a reduced series of races which will be more like extended training sessions. It is expected that the tem with the most wins would have a direct line to the LV Cup final with, if Artemis makes it, the winner between those two also joining the final.

......

Race programmes for July and August have yet to be announced, hospitality plans are in tatters, and the event, which was billed as a spectacular summer of sailing for citizens of San Francisco and for visitors, needs a major injection of confidence."


Artemis in race to make America?s Cup start line - Sailing - More Sports - The Independent

How much cost a ticket for a "Ghost" race? It seems some were already sold and are quite expensive. Maybe the sell them at discount prices now:D
 
#352 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Any of you guys going to be in the bay area for the races? my wife and I are thinking about heading up for some of it. Maybe we could plan some kind of get together?
 
#354 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

It's been a lot of fun watching the 72s practice on the Bay. Their closure speeds on you are incredible. We had one close approach on us at about fifty feet (we were on starboard). The level of seamanship is amazing. We haven't looked closely at the AC race schedule yet so we haven't committed to any specific dates yet but are looking forward to the actual races. (Watching the 45's race was a hoot and a half!)
 
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