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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?
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Thread: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-19-2013 12:01 AM
Hudsonian
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

Friend recently replaced their chain plates with titanium. The chain plates included an elaborate weldment buried in a composite knee. Therefore, the cost to remove and reinstall the chainplates far exceeded the cost of the chainplates. These folks plan to undertake a fast circumnavigation shortly. Although their boat is 30 years old, the decision to go with titanium seems obvious given the construction and their sailing plans.

Their solution wouldn't fit others.
09-17-2013 05:44 PM
casey1999
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

FWIW. I also need to change my chain plates. I have looked at many materials including titanium, silicon bronze, and 316 stainless. At one point I was going to go titanium, but the questionable source of the lower cost material and the high cost of US material put an end to that idea. The problem with machining the material also adds to the compexitity.

Next idea was to use silicon bronze. I did find a source of the silicon bronze but others have pointed out it might not be as strong as stainless and thus the plate may elongate over time or the clevis pin holes may elongate. I think silicon bronze would be ok (and many boats uses them) but I would want to make the plate thicker to compensate for pontential loss of strength. With my boat, make the plates thicker and or wider is complex and difficult as mounting would need modification.

So it looks like I will replace in kind with 316 stainless along with quality 316 ss nuts and bolts.

The other thing to think about is the bolts holding your chain plates. I have removed some of my 316 ss bolts and some have wasted away. So even if you have titanium plates, the bolts should also be titanium or you will still have problems with corrosion.
09-17-2013 01:13 PM
Lurking and Looking
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

Congrats on your potential escape from a money pit.

I have read this post from the beginning as one of the boats I am looking at needing work... I suspect the owner wants to sell because of the $7,000 quote he got from the yard... this person is the type of person who is "beyond working on his own boat" , so ultimately it may benefit me.

But back on point, I can understand the attraction to titanium, but lets looks at a couple of issues not hit on;

1) chainplates rarely fail due to "rust through"...

2) if you do have rust on a chainplate, it shows you have a leak somewhere that you may not readily show up on a non rusting titanium chainplate.

3) titanium CAN FAIL - anything and everything man-made can and probably will fail at some point.

4) the idea that you can install titanium chainplates "and NEVER have to look at them again" is idiotic... at best you won't be replacing them any time soon. No sealant that you use to embed the caps to the deck will last "forever", not even butyl tape.

5) unless you have titanium caps made, your old stainless ones will rust while you ignore your chainplates.

6) how long do you plan on owning this boat?

Stainless chainplates have been in use for some time, easy to get, easy to make at almost any quality metal fabrication shop in the world.

Titanium has a "cool" factor and is expensive to tool, but may be hard to get in the middle of nowhere at a reasonable cost when your indistructable chainplates fails because you never looked at them again...

The idea of considering anything "maintenance free" is a scary thought when talking about a sailboat maybe 1,000 miles from any land...
07-07-2013 10:50 AM
JulieMor
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheckedOutRob View Post
As the OP on this thread I should follow up on the title of this post.

I just did walk away from the Passport 40 this week. Long flight to WA to check it out. Needed new teak deck, engine oil in bilge, chainplates looked bad, leaks from saloon windows, ugliest mast I've ever seen -painted brown, mainsail shot, several diesel leaks, smelly head, dodger shot, rig had issues etc, etc.
BUT fantastic news!!!! I'm closing on an amazingly good shape Nordic 44 next week.
Congratulations on your new purchase! Make sure to post some pics and let us know how new ownership is going.
07-05-2013 12:16 PM
JeffBurright
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

As far as DIY yards, I recommend the Ilwaco boat yard at the mouth of the Columbia River. We hauled out our 30' boat there, had a bottom wash and did a month's worth of heavy work on her - electricity and all - for around $450. It's the best deal we've come across, and the people there are very nice. Bellingham also has a pretty inexpensive DIY yard (at least it was DIY in 2008) with lots of good contractors on hand. I can't remember the name though, sorry.

Good luck!
07-04-2013 10:42 PM
mark2gmtrans
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheckedOutRob View Post
Uh, CA sales tax is 8%. You buy in CA and you are legally bound to simply cut that check for 8% of book value of your new boat and drop it in the mail to CA BOE. Forget to do it? They'll have you and your boat. They are merciless. AND they'll charge you late fees, interest and penalties.

Washington allows a cruising permit for 6 mos. There are other states to sail to. My atty will file the correct papers with CA to prove yacht was not in CA. If you are buying a boat of any consequence you need to do your due diligence.

I don't want to tip my hat if any of the bad guys monitor this board.

BUT, I pay a hell of a lot of taxes. I follow the law and support my country. Tax avoidance IS A RIGHT. Tax evasion is illegal and should be punished accordingly.
This is a summary of the current (everchanging) California state tax code as it applies to the purchase of vessels in California. If you have any questions you should take it up with a Maritime Tax Law firm like Weil & Associates,

http://www.weilmaritime.com/practice-yachting-sales.php

who come very highly recommended. I have purchased boats, semi trucks, and heavy machinery in California for resale or use outside the state of California. A USCG registered vessel would definitely qualify under this law as exempt if you meet the condition of the exemption. Please not the exemption for taking it out of the state applies even if you have the boat in a marina for repairs or refitting. I hope this helps clear up any questions on this issue.

Quote:
The State of California will assess sales tax (for new vessels) or use tax (for used vessels) if the boat was (1) purchased in California; OR (2) purchased for "use" in California. California's territorial boundary extends three miles into the ocean, so if the purchase can be structured to close more than three miles offshore (an "Offshore Delivery"), the buyer will satisfy the first prong of the test. The second prong involves a subjective analysis of the buyer's intended use at the time of the purchase, which is a little more complicated.

A buyer's true "intent" is impossible to determine through any objective test, so a "presumptive test" was established, where a buyer who could prove that the boat was used outside of California for a particular time period after the purchase was presumed to have purchased it for use outside of California. For many years, the required time period was 90 days. Under that test, a buyer who could prove that he or she used the boat outside of California for more than 90 days during their first six months of ownership was "presumed" to have purchased the boat for use outside of California.

Over the years, it became very common - almost expected - that the buyer of a boat in Southern California that cost more than $100,000.00 would take advantage of this procedure and spend three months in Ensenada after the purchase. California taxpayers took exception to the use of Ensenada as a "90 day yacht club," and in 2004 the legislature enacted Senate Bill 1100 as a part of that year's state budget.

SB 1100 increased the 90 day period to one year, though it did offer several strategies for reducing that time period. The bill also included a "sunset provision," and when the law expired in 2007 the 90 day rule was reinstated. But in 2008, the budget negotiations took immediate aim at this perceived loophole, and we have now officially returned to the one-year rule.

We should note that this waffling back and forth on the time period has no effect on the basic structure of the law. The State will continue to assess sales or use tax if the boat is purchased (1) in California or (2) for "use" in California. The varying factor is the presumptive test for evaluating the buyer's intended use at the time of purchase.

We should also note that this is not a black and white test, and the "presumption" can be defeated. It was - and is - possible for a buyer to comply with the calendar test and nonetheless be subject to the tax, if the California Board of Equalization discovers facts that indicate that the buyer actually intended to use the boat in California.

The approach to the one-year requirement in 2008 differs from the 2004 approach in two ways. First, the new law has no "sunset" provision, and the new rules are therefore theoretically "permanent." Second, unlike the approach used in 2004 which provided a two month phase-in period before the law became effective, the 2008 modification to the law was effective immediately. Anyone who entered into a purchase contract after September 30, 2008, was subject to the one-year rule.

The highlights of the one-year rule provide that a buyer will be presumed to have purchased the boat in California, and thus be subject to assessment of sales or use tax, if:

For California residents, where the buyer brings the boat into California within one year of purchase;
For non-residents, where the buyer keeps the boat in California for more than six months during the first one year after the purchase;
For anyone, if the vessel is subject to the assessment of personal property tax at the county level during the first year after purchase.
There is one significant exception to the one year timetable. An owner may keep the boat in California during a repair, retrofit, or modification project, without affecting the one year analysis, so long as the boat logs less than 25 hours underway while it is in California.
07-04-2013 09:10 PM
CheckedOutRob
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

As the OP on this thread I should follow up on the title of this post.

I just did walk away from the Passport 40 this week. Long flight to WA to check it out. Needed new teak deck, engine oil in bilge, chainplates looked bad, leaks from saloon windows, ugliest mast I've ever seen -painted brown, mainsail shot, several diesel leaks, smelly head, dodger shot, rig had issues etc, etc.
BUT fantastic news!!!! I'm closing on an amazingly good shape Nordic 44 next week.
07-04-2013 09:03 PM
CheckedOutRob
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

Uh, CA sales tax is 8%. You buy in CA and you are legally bound to simply cut that check for 8% of book value of your new boat and drop it in the mail to CA BOE. Forget to do it? They'll have you and your boat. They are merciless. AND they'll charge you late fees, interest and penalties.

Washington allows a cruising permit for 6 mos. There are other states to sail to. My atty will file the correct papers with CA to prove yacht was not in CA. If you are buying a boat of any consequence you need to do your due diligence.

I don't want to tip my hat if any of the bad guys monitor this board.

BUT, I pay a hell of a lot of taxes. I follow the law and support my country. Tax avoidance IS A RIGHT. Tax evasion is illegal and should be punished accordingly.
07-01-2013 04:01 PM
hellosailor
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

12"x36" of 1/4" Titanium plate, unspecified alloy, $800+.
Four bars of 316SS, 3"x 36", $220.

Without shopping around or trying to factor in the harder machine work...Not so bad, an extra $600--700 for chainplates that simply COULD NOT experience that failure on a 30-40' boat.

Not that the difference is chump change, but if access is a problem and someone plans to keep a boat long long term...it might even be a good selling point for the next owner. One less thing they have to worry about as well.

Of course if you have titanium chainplates, they should be bolted external to the hull, and finished in those wonderful irredescent colors that only titanium has, just to make sure everyone knows it. (VBG)
07-01-2013 03:51 PM
Harborless
Re: Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?

Fine- You go Titanium Ill stay 316. Ill sell my boat in 3 to 5 and save the grand for a vacation to costa rica next fall.
Each their own.
Out.
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