SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

188K views 1K replies 48 participants last post by  Rhapsody-NS27 
#1 · (Edited)
In the "Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort" thread,

Post # 142, Wolfenzee said to Bob Perry " BOB: take a close look at the lines of my boat and tell me could a fin keel have been designed in relatively easily http://atkinboatplans.com/Sail/images/CaptainCicero-3.gif
[/I]"

And in Post #152 and #153 Bob Perry Responded:
(#152)"Damn it Wolfer!
You made me think.
I hate it when that happens.

Sure I could do your boat with a fin keel and a nice skeg hung rudder or better yet a spade rudder.

It would look just like your boat....above the water. Under the water you would not recognize it. I would have to shave away all that deadrise and reduce displ while carving away some volume forward and reducing some hollows aft.

But in the end you and me would love it. It would be a WOLF in sheep's clothing like NIGHT RUNNER."


(#153) "Wolfy:
Next Wednesday post your hull lines again and a photo or two of your boat.
When I start thinking about a new boat I need to see it and I think it would be fun for all of us to see what your boat would look like with a more modern hull combined with that traditional Atkin look.

I have to do this to get it off my mind. I'm built like that.

Or, Jeff could do it. I know he could.
Or, Jeff and I could do it together.
He'd do the hard work and I'd do the pointing and gesturing.

Either way let's see if we can produce a boat that will get your juices flowing."


And I am bowled over by that.

As a SailNet Moderator, I can only thank Bob Perry for that generous offer to come up with a design that explores Wolf's question. That is a true gift to this forum. Normal folk rarely get to see a custom design process and so this should prove interesting.

And I am truly honored that you would be willing to do this with me. I truly appreciate Bob's willingness to give that a try.

This is a thread for that process. I am excited to see where this ends up....

Jeff
 
See less See more
#867 · (Edited)
I once worked for an old wooden boatbuilder who told me "A friend wanted me to go in to bulding steel tugs ,but I didnt think those steel tugs would ever catch on"
Friends cruising Mexico and the South Pacific say many of the boats he encounters has a copy of my book on board. My name is well known among most of them, far more so here on the BC coast.
Jeff , when your criteria are low cost, speed of construction, and impact resistance, could you put together your wood and kevlar hull and decks for a 36 for $9K worth of materials, in less that a week with only one skilled worker and one unskilled, working in a backyard, which I have done for a 36? How far could you get in that time with $9K worth of materials? Would it survive a sledge hammer for as long as you cared to pound, as one of my boats will?
I found the statement about wood being as strong as steel, hilarious. Thank you for posting that. It points out clearly how far removed from reality some numbers jugglers can be. Now its up to you to tell the military that they will have to start making battle ships, aircraft carriers, tugs ,submarines and tanks out of wood as it is stronger and has more impact resistance. Then you could also do wooden gun barrels . I think they would find it as hilarious as I do. Anything less than your passing this "Breaktrhu knowledge "along to them would be treason!
When I guy discovers a way to reduce the time to get a steel shell together by 90% doesnt try to monopolize the knowledge, but trains others how to do his job, then sends enough work for one of his students to build himself two boats and build a house , forgoing all that income to go cruising , what does Smackdaddy call him ?
Selfish!
Smackdaddys credibility?
ZERO!
When he writes a book telling others how to do it ( His trade secrets) and charges the lowest price for any marine book for it , what does Smackdaddy call him?
Selfish!
Smackdaddys credibility?
ZERO!
When he charges $350 for a set of plans for a 36, while other designers charge many times that what does Smackdaddy call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he spends many years on chatlines ,offering far more affordable solutions to their problems, free of charge, at no benefit to himself , and trying to convince cruisers that using their heads instead of their pocket books to solve problems in order to maximize their cruisng play time, will get better results,what does Smack call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he offers to give his book revenues to a shelter for abused women, donates much to such shelters, out of a minimal income, gets a cop fired for advocating an abuser try a ballistic solution on his victim, at some risk and no benefit for himself,
and beats up the odd wife abuser, and helps his victims out, again at no benefit to himself, and some risk what does Smack call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he posts on several sites how to build a beter sheet block for $2 than most are paying $30 or more for, What doies Smack call him?
Selfish.
Smacks credibuility?
Zero!
What has Smack contributed to dealing with the two biggest hurdles to getting off the treadmill and going cruising?
Zero!
What is his approach to those without a lot of money trying to get off the treadmill?
Discouragement, cynicism and obstructionism, along with a lot of elitist guilt tripping.

A freind did search for best boats to buy. The Valiant 40 they repeatedly said it was one of the worst for osmosis and balsa core rot, something we dont have problems with on steel boats . Bob. Why woud they use something which rots, over high density foam, which doesnt . I dont get it.

More to come. Time for another swim then a night sail to more swimmin, for the rest of the summer.. Life is rough
 
#868 · (Edited)
Actually, Brent, it's 0.012.

And my ego is more puncture-resistant than one of your boats. Heh-heh.

Brent, here's the absolute truth: Your solutions for the 99%er who just wants to cruise ARE NOT cheaper. They are WAY more expensive, complex, and time consuming. Period.

If the goal, as you say, is to "step off the treadmill" and cruise, that 99%er would be WAY better off buying a used fiberglass boat in good shape, getting some lessons and time on the helm, then just heading off. Your trying to refute this with a "$35K" home-made steel boat is ludicrous.

However, if the ACTUAL goal of that 99%er is to build a steel boat so that he/she can go through the NW Passage or hit rocks and reefs at will - then your solutions make perfect sense.

It all depends on whether that 99%er wants to cruise affordably or build a tank.

All that said, your blocks, windlasses, etc. are definitely an ingenious use of recycled materials as long one doesn't mind the aesthetic challenges. But that's a different cup of herring than getting onto an affordable boat in a short amount of time and cruising.

As for my contribution on "cruising affordably"? Well, we just bought a fast, well-equipped, beautiful 40' sailboat for just $7K more than your "$35K steel boat"...the one we would have been building in our backyard for the next several years. See we're already cruising - not welding.

Oh, and where the hell did I say you were "selfish for beating up odd wife abusers at no benefit to yourself"? Man, you come up with some doozies! Credibility anyone?

(This message brought to you by Smackdaddy AKA Mr. Incredible.)
 
#870 ·
jak:
You bet they did. As I did. I sailed four days a week in local racing. I race in every kind of boat from an OK dinghy, to a Star, to a Lightning, to a Raven, to an Internatiol 14, to a Thistle and the little dink that got me started, the Penguin, a Phil Rhodes design. I could list more but I hate typing. Trust me that I sailed a lot of different boats. I would get crew jobs on any big boat that would have me and I sailed in the summertime 4 days a week. Racing was really the way to get to know how a boat performed. If you have never done any serious racing you are most probably a hacker. Sorry but that's just the reality.

****ski!
I can't even figure out what Brent is arguing about anymore. The closest I can come to is that we should not shoot trees.

$350 for a whole set of plans? I don't think Brent and I work in the same market. Do you stand by the freeway offramp with a sign Brent? "Plans for food".
 
#875 ·
No reason to apologize!.I hear ya.I started out on a little 7' cat boat, A rookie they were called,A spent my whole summers on the water racing,I sailed in 110,s,lasers,A friend bought an old Star boat.There wasnt an active class anymore in Cohasset.But it was sure fun to sail,Crewed in some 210,s and did a little frost biting,VERY LITTLE.I have never liked the cold,which is why I live on the left coast now.Wow, memories.There was another old old Star rotting in barn I wanted so bad.I was 12 or 13 at the time.I was going to put a little cabin on it and sail to Maine.
 
#871 ·
****ski!
I can't even figure out what Brent is arguing about anymore. The closest I can come to is that we should not shoot trees.
Never been called that before, but if I can ski on it, I will!

Not sure it is worth my time, money not that I have any, or effort to argue with Brent frankly! Nothing makes any sense to me.........as sgt Shultz would say, " I know NUTHING!"

Marty
 
#874 ·
Some nekid women would liven up this here thread, get us away from BRent and his far right or left idea's........he may be so far left or right that he is behind center plate, which is not always the best place to be! That is my story, and I am sticken to it!.....

It was hot today, out working in it for 5-6 hrs, about 8 saturday, probably another 8 tomorrow...........tuesday clean up the boat, then on the water for a day or two or three. SJF looks interesting with some SC warnings in the after noon, oh well, a reach across should be fun! oar ez et PHUN!
 
#879 ·
I don't know what color that is. I just call it "buff".
We lookede into a faux wood paint job for the spars and Hall Spars advised against it. They said the problem was that "everyone has their own idea what wood looks like". The faux wood spars I have seen do not appeal to me. It's CF not wood, let it be painted anyway you like but not faux wood.
 
#880 ·
Went up to Lundenburg when I was researching "last boat". If Brent opened his mind and saw the work done by modern wooden boat builders suspect he'd walk away with a different opinion.
Similarly a visit to the Kanter yard might change his mind as to the possibilities in metal. Right near me is New England Boatworks if he wants to see whatsup in building with high tech materials.
When looking at folks with different backgrounds who sometimes say or do things which are not congruent with reality my peers often use the saying "They don't know what they don't know". Afraid this is the case here.
Agree sometimes the latest and greatest doesn't mean better in actual usage. A point Wolfie has made in the past. Personally, went with a solid, grp hull knowing I expect to voyage. Thinking was easier to maintain and importantly easier to repair without requiring the level of equipment/skill that may not be found where I may be. Also easier for me given my knowledge level to know if effective repair was made and make repairs/maintain myself. I don't carry a Miller-matic on the boat. Do carry glass, resin and epoxy.
When doing detailed budgeting for wood/epoxy, cold molded, strip plank, steel, aluminum, cored, solid glass, high tech composite, one off, production, semi custom and analyzing annual costs with residual value think I made the right choice for us. The quality of life aboard my boat is actually as good or better than in my 4000+sqft house. That's a statement I think few in Brent boats can make and we will be sailing into our senescence (g-d willing and the creek don't rise ).
In short, you can have a smart phone and choose to not download a zillion apps but to still be functioning in an analogue world is to not accept the world as moved on. Believe he is a Luddite even in the metal boat world.
P.S.- read an article from the owner of the Waterline shop in a trade rag. Very interesting discussion of the realities Brent refuses to accept. Wife tossed out all the bathroom reading so can't give a citation. Basically, steel is very viable as a boat building material at 40+ft. but needs to designed by a NA skilled in it's use and a yard skilled in it's construction. The issue isn't steel it's the denial of basic physics.
 
#886 ·
When I was in Marion had the pleasure of being near a chris craft and a huckins. Believe both were built before I was born ( and I fart dust). Both were all bright and beautiful. Also a 1940s "commuter" being used as a summer liveaboard. Guess wood don't hold up so good. Also love to go to the Benjamin and Gagnon yard. Traditional plank on frame. What a joy to see how those boats are put together. Still see original MacKenzie bassboats plucking stripers out of the waters around Cuttihunk. Wood boats fishing ( and bouncing) off the rocks catching what dem southern folks call rock fish for a reason. Then there are these funny narrow 39'yawls sailing by- wonder what's that's about? Seem to see a bunch around South Dartmouth. Guess Bob's right- wood is just a phase. Personally, if maintained and sound would not a have thought about taking a Concordia anywhere regardless of age.
 
#887 ·
If I was loaded with dough and could afford any boat I wanted I think I would realize a fantacy I have had for many years. I'd convert a flimsy and dangerous halibut schooner into a cruising boat. I know,,I'd be taking my life in my hands but I'm sort of a daredevil type as any of my friends will tell you. These old schoonners worked one of the very toughest fisheries and lasted for 100 years. There is still a fleet of them in Seattle. They are magnificent.
 

Attachments

#894 · (Edited)
Maybe I already did that. I am meeting with this client, Emil Doperya, in two weeks to decide where we go next. Emil's Dad and Uncle invented the Dobro. Emil has one circumnavigation under his belt. He likes my work.

Jak:
That footage of the old boats brings this old Ballard kid to tears.
But those fragile old wooden boats with 2.5" planking won't last.
Many thanks for posting that.
 

Attachments

#897 · (Edited)
Go to bed Brent. Your typing, general thought process and attempts at sentance structure tells me you have had a long day again. We are talking about important things here. Your owners go on the rocks at an alarming rate. That is very strange. And yet you brag about their stupidity and lack of navigation skills. Weird.

My apology Brent. It's Canada Day, you have every right to be celebrating. Happy Canada Day to you. Nighty night.

Jak:
Emil has a collection of some Dobros built by his Dad and Uncle that would make you drool. I keep dreaming that he will leave them with me to store. He's a good pal. He has house sat for us twice and I trust him and with my dogs. Which if you know me at all says a lot.
 
#904 ·
A friend of mine is a retired chief merhant seaman.around 2008 he was chief engineer on a Horizon container ship. They were off the coast of Oregon and in a major winter gale. They were navigating there way through the storm to try to by pass the worst of it.It was a freak storm that got much worse than forcast.During the worst of it a huge wave came over the bow and green water came all the way down the length of the ship.It smashed out the pilot house windows,bent the 'eyebrow' around the bridge back flat.The brigde was flooded, the power went down and they lost steering.My friend told me in 30+ years in the merchant marine he had never been scared till then.They had to steer the ship from an auxilery system way below deck.They communicated with the old man with walky talkys.The bridge on this ship is about 15 stories above sea level.That gives you an idea of the size of the seas.All the steel that ever came from Pitzburg couldnt save you if arent just dumb lucky.I knew of a steel fish boat
left Gloucester and just vanished, no bad weather,just gone, poof.The Gloucester pilot boat, The Can Do went down in the blizzard of '78 , between Bakers Island and Salem harbor,A 49' steel motor vessel lost with all hands in sight of land. Read 10 HOURS TILL DAWN by Michael J. Tougias. Sure steel might last longer bashing it with a sledge hammer or pounding in the surf but to think it will save your bacon no matter what is just naive.Shyte happens.Ive been on boats and sailing before I could walk or talk.No I havent sailed across the pacific but I spent years sailing in an area with ledges ,rocks, and shallow water and fog.In 50 years Ive experienced hitting 1 ledge and running aground once.The solution is good navigation and piloting.Dont hit rocks in the first place.Its really not that difficult.The basics I learned as a 10 year old, keep a good look out, always be aware of the weather and where you are have kept me and others in good stead.Noel and Litara Barret have sailed over 100,000 miles in wood boats, including Antartica,South Georgia,Cape Horn and Greenland,Iceland etc,Same with Tim and Pauline Carr in a 30 foot Falmoth Punt.They wintered for several years in South Georgia and then sailed home.I dont worry to much about hitting stuff in the Ocean.I compare the odds to the danger of where I live.Today I drove through San Francisco across the Bay Bridge through Oakland, The most dangerous city in the US now,to Berkely Marine. I survived cell phone drivers, idiots,crazies,shootouts and a Bart Strike but hey Im OK.
 
#934 ·
Nothing saves your bacon no matter what. Steel just exponentially improves the odds, the definition of good seamanship improving the odds. How many Sleavin family type disasters could be avoided had they not been discouraged by disinformation, from choosing a steel boat? It would have saved theirs.
 
#905 · (Edited)
Brent:
Be careful with the "extreme ugliness" call. We have seeen your work.

"They all have one thing in common. They alll leave the helmsman in an open cockpit as the only steeriing option; bad seamanship, of the most naive and pretentious kind ." Brent Swain.
Brent you continue to amaze me with what you don't know.

And as for all those designers on my list leaving the helmsman unprotected, that just shows ignorance of their work. I could list designs wth protected cockpits by all of thse designers but I won't. Reality means little to you so why waste my time.

"What do you charge for plans for a 36'er?
Well Brent, that would depend on if we are talking about a custom design or one of my existing designs. For a new custom design I would charge $120 USD an hour to prepare the design and I would estimate the total cost of design at between 8.5% and 10% of the total build cost. So, if we are talking about working with a good yard I'd estimate the design fee at $34,000 USD. This price can increase if the client wants fulll 3D renderings of the interior layout. We are doing that more and more these days.

If we are talking about an existing design I would try to make sure it was a new design of mine so it represented what I am doing today and I would probably charge $10,000 USD. I would assume that I would be doing some custom work to the design for that buyer. If the buyer is not willing to spend $10,000 for the desig then I don't think he wil be willing to build the boat to my standard of finish. I value my design work highly and I will not sell it cheap. I honestly can't remember that last set of "stock plans" I sold. I think my pricing eliminates most home builders. It's not my market.

If an owner of one of my designs wants plans of his boat for reference I will sell him a full set for betweem $350 and $500 depending on how many drawings are involved. But this is not for building a boat.

But, fact is I don't want to work with home builders unless I know them well and they have proven they can build a boat to my standard. I am working with one right now. It's his second boat to my plans. He is a master craftsman. The first was a 44'er that he cruised extensively and the new boat is a 28' motor sailer, twin rudders, square top main and a fast hull with a lifting bulb keel. It's a custom design. I prefer to work with established, quality yards.

Jak:
You can get some really good BBQ in Oakland. And YOSHI's down in Jack London Square is a great sushi bar and jazz club.
 

Attachments

#912 ·
For a new custom design I would charge $120 USD an hour to prepare the design and I would estimate the total cost of design at between 8.5% and 10% of the total build cost. So, if we are talking about working with a good yard I'd estimate the design fee at $34,000 USD. This price can increase if the client wants fulll 3D renderings of the interior layout. We are doing that more and more these days.
Damnit! I guess that screws up my chances of getting one of your builds for a six pack of Miller Lite? All this being nice to you, all for nothin. Not even a Hometown Discount??? Fine, have it your way. I guess I am back to Brent.

Heya, Brent, need some plans, Bro. I own a screw driver, and borrowed a hack saw. I am ready. We will name this yacht the Bob Perry. BIG FREAKING LETTERS all over the stern, side, bow, what tha hell, even across the bottom of the hull as I suspect that is what most will see when I hit that reef. I got one all picked out too...

Brian
 
#907 · (Edited)
Those three photos I posted show work on the 60' ketch at Pacific Seacraft. The first pic is me sketching on the mockup the layout of the windows in the aft bulkhead. I think it is important aesthetically to have those windows follow the lines of the house top and deck structure so they look harmonious while provicde the visibility forward needed.

The second photo is an early rendering of the piot house done in 3D so we could work out the details of the pilot house. That rendering is not obsolete.

The third photo is another very early rendering of the aft cockpit. This view is also obsolete now but I think it's interestuing to see the evolution of the design and the effort made to get a beautiful final result.

These newer photos are of the final PH shape and the CNC cut foam mold used to laminate the PH. If you look closely you can see a drip groove running accross the aft end of the PH overhang.

Actually that second image is obsolete but I'll leave it there to illustrate how we use these 3D models. With that rendering and some work on the mock up we decided that the camber accross the front windows was too flat. So playing with the 3D model we increased the camber until we achieved the look we were after. The fourth photo shows the final result. The change is subtle but effective.

I think these renderings clearly show at least one way my approach to design differs from Brent's.
 

Attachments

#940 ·
Beautiful work Bob! Any chance you have a mock up design for a hard dodger for my Tayana 37? When this Sunbrella dodger wears out in a few years, I 'd like to build a hard dodger. I do enjoy being out in the open, but as I get older a little more cover would be nice.

Cheers!
 
#908 ·
Was surprised how hard it is to do a hard dodger "right". Needs to blend into the boat to not be an eye sore. For us needed to be the right height so sight lines for me at 6' and the admiral at 4'10" were maintained when we're in our usual positions around the cockpit. Needs to be structurally sound ( Cored in divinylicell with lights being thick safety glass). Needs to allow safe passage forward with a rim of ss handholds on sides and aft.
Glass is two layers with a film between. Went back and forth about tint. Decided to go clear due to concerns when night sailing. But then had concerns about thermal effects as it's a hot box. So added two hatches over. Will add canvas to cover/protect lights from etching from sand etc. and make it cooler. Then added red/white LED lighting under to make it function at night underway or at anchor. Then the connection to topsides was re worked to add curves, increase foot print on boat and increase structural soundness. Think Phil spent a lot of hours on this "simple" thing. Now reworking the design/attachment of the hard bimini. It's also divinylcell cored glass with a safety glass insert just forward of the helm ( see the sails and masthead). It going to have solar panels on top and needs to be strong enough to stand up to a pooping without coming down on our heads. Already has these cute red/white LEDs for lighting and a pleasing set of curves which add rigidity. Can climb on both without a wiggle but not yet strong enough in my view hence the rework. You look at Bob's work such as the rework of the deckplan/interior of my boat and you can see designs that integrate form and function. This is the mark of a good architect be it buildings or boats.
 
#927 ·
Was surprised how hard it is to do a hard dodger "right". Needs to blend into the boat to not be an eye sore.
That's why so many hard dodgers and pilothouse type structures are so ugly. Bob will know a lot better than me how hard it is but I sure don't have to take my socks off to count the number of designers who do it well.

I particularly liked Bill Garden's - his use of overhanging tops always looked great to me. I saw one of his Walloon's fresh out of the Bel-Aire shipyard - it was built for the yard owner. I must have stood on the dock for more than an hour just drinking it in - Gawd it was perfect.
 
#909 ·
Out:
We added that hatch over the overhang area to help with ventilation and the view of the rig. It was not something I thought was necessary but I was not adamantly against it either. We are now contemplating having the center window in the front of the house be opening. You can never have too much ventilation.

We have lots of opening ports and we are now mocking up the locations so make sure they work well aesthetically as well as practically with the interior layout. All of this is on the drawings but if we take this extra step with mock up work we can fine tune details. I looed at this mock up of thenports on the port side and to my eye the last three pors need to be slightly lower with their centerline aligned with the cbnterline of the forward ports rather than maintain a constant reveal at the top edge.
 

Attachments

#914 ·
Out:
We added that hatch over the overhang area to help with ventilation and the view of the rig. It was not something I thought was necessary but I was not adamantly against it either. We are now contemplating having the center window in the front of the house be opening. You can never have too much ventilation.
.
Bob, I have a hard dodger on my boat (Divinycell/fiberglass construction), though perhaps not as elegant as yours. I have a forward opening hatch on top between the solar panels and an opening hatch in the windscreen. I can tell you that the opening hatch in the windscreen lets in plenty of air and keeps everything cool. It's worth installing.
 
#910 ·
Went with fixed ports for front and sides as believe it's real hard to have them open and not leak. Also the way my main sheet runs it wouldn't open much in any case. Thought about clamshells but never liked them. So have two hatches on top much like you drew. Another an another thread a fellow poster who I really respect carried on about green water getting through the small openings for the lines lead aft. All I know is the dodger came out wonderfully. Spent 95% of our time on all watches hunkered down under the dodger with the remote around our necks when bringing the boat up from Va. in 35Kt and 6-8ft. Comfy, warm and dry. If others do this think it's important to have three sets of electronics. One at wheel for near coastal, one at nav. station and complete set over companion way as you end up spending your watch time there most times.
 
#911 ·
Out:
We can make the centerline opening window work in terms of clearance. But I am not going to make that call. I will leave that to the owner. I am concerned about leaks and also about having one window that does not match the other windows in terms of frame design. Although, given that it is tucked just aft of the mizzen mast you probably would not notice it.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top