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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Engines > Diesel > M25 what is this and where does the hose go?
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Thread: M25 what is this and where does the hose go? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-09-2013 11:04 AM
mark2gmtrans
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSBN506 View Post
I cant tell, if you look at the picture of my engine you can se that part of the engine is a bit darker then the rest. The jar option would tell me if it is leaking to much I assume.

http://vision-networking.ca/m25.jpg
I would say you have a point there, put the jar on it, but make sure the lid has one other hole in it, to let air out so that it is not pressured up with the heat from the oil vapor. Let us know how much you actually are getting in there, my guess is that it is not much, the engine you have in the photos is not a dripping mess as far as I can tell. When you have the engine running and it leaves puddles like a puppy then you know you have a big problem, a tiny amount of oil vapor over a long period of time will discolor the paint, so you probably have no big problems.
07-09-2013 10:59 AM
SSBN506
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
Are you getting a lot of oil out of the tube now?
I cant tell, if you look at the picture of my engine you can se that part of the engine is a bit darker then the rest. The jar option would tell me if it is leaking to much I assume.

http://vision-networking.ca/m25.jpg
07-09-2013 10:52 AM
mark2gmtrans
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSBN506 View Post
that is what I was thinking of doing. Simple and I wont be dripping oil on the engine that is then burning off like now. A lot simpler than tapping a hole in the air box also.
Are you getting a lot of oil out of the tube now?
07-09-2013 10:51 AM
mark2gmtrans
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

One more thing, if you guys are seeing a liquid oil discharge, not just the little tiny amount of aerosol vapor oil discharge, then you have an issue somewhere in your engine. There should be just a very small amount, barely visible, of smoke like vapor coming out of the tube, more than that is an indicator of positive pressure in the crankcase, which is, as I stated above, a problem. I recommend that you use the fuel and oil products for diesel engines that help them run cleaner, and I can highly recommend the Lucas oil treatment that goes in your engine oil. This stuff really does work, and it keeps the oil viscosity up where it should be at all operating temps, and does not make the oil thick like peanut butter when it is cold. This helps protect your valve guides and seals, rings, and cylinder walls, and your bottom end bearings, and all of those things are kind of necessary to have a good running long lasting engine.

These little engines will truly last longer than your boat if you take care of them, but if you do not, they will make good anchors if you melt them down.
07-09-2013 10:40 AM
SSBN506
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
On our M25, we simply routed the breather hose down to a peanut butter jar, drilled a hole for the hose and then a bunch more smaller ones to vent it. Any oil drops into the jar with full atmospheric pressure all around. Simple.
that is what I was thinking of doing. Simple and I wont be dripping oil on the engine that is then burning off like now. A lot simpler than tapping a hole in the air box also.
07-09-2013 10:39 AM
mark2gmtrans
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
Sorry to be a PITA but to have this pipe going directly from the rocker cover into the inlet manifold is perhaps not that wise. These systems are called Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) systems and are designed with special valves that prevent the vacuum from the manifold drawing oil from the rocker cover (similar to the vented loop in the raw water cooling system)

A diesel engine is not like a gasoline engine - it does not have a throttle plate in the manifold to control engine RPM. RPM is controlled by the volume of fuel that is injected. But if the engine starts to draw oil from the rocker cover into the inlet manifold, the engine will start enjoying the oil and will not need diesel to run on. Granted, manifold vacuum on a diesel is not as high as a gasoline engine but when the revs get up there the vacuum may be enough to draw oil from the rocker cover.

And if it does you may end up with a run-away engine. These can be character-building but are generally not recommended.

I am not a diesel specialist so the opinion above is offered reservedly. Just be sure you know what you're setting up. If the original system was a pipe hanging down the side of the engine, chances are it was never set up to be a PCV system.
You are right in some of what you are saying...

There is/was no PCV valve on this engine. The original setup was a small filter of a sponge type material which goes on the inside of the little cube piece sticking up from the head cover, or as it is called here valve cover, to prevent liquid oil from going up the hose and making a mess, that went up to the elbow and down the hose. The only oil that should be going anywhere in this situation should be in aerosol form, and it should not be much at all. A little smoke looking oil vapor, nothing solid or liquid at all. The vacuum is very low, and in the little one, two, and three cylinder engines it should not happen that it draws the oil up the tube. This is not a real positive crankcase ventilation system, where the vacuum is pulled intentionally to put a negative pressure in the system, in order to be positive you have ventilation. Yes I know having negatives to get positives can be confusing, but that is the way the world is, LOL.

However, since the Westerbeke/Universal representative has stated that running it into the manifold would be okay and that in any case it should definitely not be run through the filter, I said this would be the only good way to do it. Let me be clear in what I was saying, I personally would not run it there at all. Running it into the actual air filter, as it was in the one photo, would possibly pull a vacuum, like what you are talking about, and draw liquid oil up into the filter. I doubt it would pull enough to cause a runaway, on a naturally aspirated engine that would be tough to do in that manner unless there were underlying issues that allowed a lot more oil to go up than should. Theoretically, you could get a runaway out of the setup, and you really do not want one of those on your boat. They can be extremely destructive, dangerous, and more interesting than anything you really want to try, ever.

I would run it just like the manufacturer said to run it, things just work better when done like the pointy headed little pocket protector guys designed them to be done. Some people like to have the hose run over into the manifold to keep excess oil coming from the head cover from getting on stuff, but here is the problem with that, the oil is excess. That means it should not be coming out in that quantity, if you have a ton of blow by coming out that tube it means you have either worn valve guides and seals, worn valve seats, worn piston rings, or some other issue that is allowing compression to get into your crankcase and push more oil vapor out than ever should be coming out. Now if that is the case, guess what, this is one of the few things that would give your engine enough fuel to burn to keep running when you do not want it to run, and that is called a runaway. If you get a crankcase oil fed runaway it actually draws the oil off and burns it in the engine, but if the lubricating oil is getting burned....well that leaves the question of what is going to do the lubricating oil's job? The answer is NOTHING! You can toast the motor. Thankfully a full true runaway, where you have the engine cycling into ever higher RPM's almost never occurs in these little engines without turbos or superchargers on them. The type of runaway I am talking about always ends badly, and usually ends with the what was the internal parts ending up on the external part of the motor, pistons and rods flying out of the block. Like I said, these little motors just really do not get to that point very often, if ever, but they can be damaged by sucking their oil up the tube and into the motor.

If you have an excess of blow by coming out of that tube it needs to see a mechanic, not be routed into the intake. The issues that are beginning to appear when you first see those added little puffs of oil vapor coming out can be fixed if you get it done early. If you wait it can still be fixed, just bring me more money.
07-09-2013 10:20 AM
Stu Jackson
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

On our M25, we simply routed the breather hose down to a peanut butter jar, drilled a hole for the hose and then a bunch more smaller ones to vent it. Any oil drops into the jar with full atmospheric pressure all around. Simple.
07-09-2013 07:29 AM
Omatako
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

Sorry to be a PITA but to have this pipe going directly from the rocker cover into the inlet manifold is perhaps not that wise. These systems are called Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) systems and are designed with special valves that prevent the vacuum from the manifold drawing oil from the rocker cover (similar to the vented loop in the raw water cooling system)

A diesel engine is not like a gasoline engine - it does not have a throttle plate in the manifold to control engine RPM. RPM is controlled by the volume of fuel that is injected. But if the engine starts to draw oil from the rocker cover into the inlet manifold, the engine will start enjoying the oil and will not need diesel to run on. Granted, manifold vacuum on a diesel is not as high as a gasoline engine but when the revs get up there the vacuum may be enough to draw oil from the rocker cover.

And if it does you may end up with a run-away engine. These can be character-building but are generally not recommended.

I am not a diesel specialist so the opinion above is offered reservedly. Just be sure you know what you're setting up. If the original system was a pipe hanging down the side of the engine, chances are it was never set up to be a PCV system.
07-08-2013 11:06 AM
mark2gmtrans
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSBN506 View Post
You point me in the proper direction with the proper name. Google helped after that.

Earlier M25 engines had the crankcase breather tubes simply directed down below the engine. Later engines re-routed the breather tube to a spot near the air filter, so that the oily fumes are sucked into the engine when it is running. I was planning to do that myself (I have an '87 M25XP), until I talked to a Westerbeke/Universal rep at a boatshow. One of the "problems" with routing the breather hose to a spot near the air filter is that the oil fumes (from the crankcase) tend to get the air filter dirty at a faster rate. Instead, at the suggestion of the W/U rep, I took the intake manifold off, and drilled and tapped a hole for an elbow fitting. To that fitting I attached the other end of the breather tube. Now the oily air is sucked directly into the engine and bypasses the air filter. It has worked very well that way for the past 10 years or so. Others have simply attached their breather tubes to a spot near the air filter, and others have attached fittings to the air filter housing, all with good results.
Yes, that is the only good way to do it, you have to bypass the filter, and go directly through to the intake, and you want that to be a small fitting and small hose, so it does not suck too much oil out, which it should not do. I would replace the little filter inside the valve cover too, that way everything is working like it should.
07-08-2013 10:53 AM
mark2gmtrans
Re: M25 what is this and where does the hose go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSBN506 View Post
I have noticed a few pictures online of a tube going from that spot to the air intake so crankcase breather sounds correct. From the pictures online it looks like the c34 that mostly have m25xp go to the air intake.

http://realitycheck.me/gallery/unive...top%20view.jpg
Looking closer it looks like it is just zip tied next to it.

Here is one from a cat 30 and you can se a hose attached going down some ware. Maybe just to the bilge.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-A...ine-before.jpg
The second photo shows the correct manufactured installation. The first one is not correct, and would pull a vacuum on the crankcase and draw oil up through the filter and into the intake in a way that it was not designed to do. Remember, this is a diesel engine, and the intake setup is very different.
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