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Limits of Captains authority

10K views 52 replies 33 participants last post by  daydream sailor 
#1 · (Edited)
This is a question that came up due to a currently popular thread.

I copied some text and added some text to make the question more comprehensive.

The general rule is that aboard a boat the captain makes the rules and the crew obeys. But obviously there are exceptions.
What rules should be obeyed and when can an exception be made.

The following are some guidelines. Do you agree with them?

The captain can sail the boat the way he wants. That may be slow, in the wrong direction etc.
Just about anything the captain wants done should be done so it is easier to think in terms of exceptions.

The following are some candidate exceptions:

1. The captain can not order me to do something I can't safely do. I'm the only one who knows what I can safely do. This exception is not about what I like to do or want to do but only about what I can't physically do without incapacitating injury or death. If for example if a captain ordered me to deal with a hose clamp in a deep bilge where I knew I would get scratched and cut by machinery I would do it as that would be painful and annoying but not incapacitating.

2. If the boat or people were in serious trouble, out of water, food or sinking or serious illness are the only ones I can think of I would use my sat phone not to call in a MayDay but to put them on notice as to our situation. This one I really don't like. I would really hate it if some nervous nelly hid in the forepeak and called a Mayday on my boat if I was the captain. If I was the captain I would calm the nervous person by making the call myself. Typically in case of a difference of opinion I suspect the cc would require a check-in every few minutes until everyone was on the same page.

3. Sex has to be consensual between adults.

4. Crew do not have to follow illegal orders, for example murdering someone.


I have crewed on may Sail Netters boats and would like to crew on all of them.
I'm interesting in the experienced captains take on the limits of authority of the office of captain.

And specifically if you have hand any experiences that you had to deal with either as crew or captain that may be of interest for this discussion.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Unless crew are in the military or employed by the ship with the captain as the supervisor, then in all other cases, "crew" are guests of the vessel. As such, the "captain" can't make them do anything. He can ask, plead, cajole or anything else, but the guests are free to do as they please.

The captain title is a courtesy but my legal authority is limited. While I am responsible for my guests safety, I can't make them do anything.
 
#4 ·
Good Point.
I should have phrased it more in terms of what is expected rather than legal terms.
And if it is depending on what is expected it would make a difference between grandmas first time and and someone that was taken on explicitly to help with either a boat move or race.
 
#5 ·
"3. Sex has to be consensual between adults."
Oh, I see. You're going to pretend the sheep have no say in the matter?

No really, unless the "boat" and "captain" fall under specific laws and circumstances, it is still just a group of people playing Lord of the Flies, and the rules are no different from the ones that apply at a poker game or a carpool.
 
#8 ·
I think Sabreman is spot on.

BTW re the sex. I'm not into spanking. Well, not on watch anyway.
Thoroughly agree ..... sometimes (oft times ?) I wonder if the "i am ze kapitan, you vill obey or die" mob are more megalomaniacal than your average weasel butt moderator.
 
#9 ·
OK, so what if the crew refuses to do something or they are incompetent/unable to follow orders, what does the captain do then? (And this, above the others, absolutely applies to #3!) Walk the plank? Scream? Take them back to port? Dock them a beer until they comply? You're missing some fer instance variables in your question. Most boats are recreation and "the rules" should to be established for each boat before anyone sets foot onboard. That said, most people are generally overly eager to help. The problem arises when the captain is pushing the boat and its crew to the very limits of their capabilities (and hopefully not over) because of a race. That's when everything changes. I sailed with one captain who said the first rule on his boat was all about safety. As soon as the gun went off, that rule fell off the stern rail and was never seen again.
 
#12 ·
Hard and fast rules are so difficult....

If I am an older "captain" I might very well ask younger crew to do things that would be difficult for me. Of course, I wouldn't leave the dock if that had not been sorted out first.

And really there are 2 sorts of sailing: trips with family and guests during which they are invited to help but captain can single hand if he wishes or needs to, and passages or races where team work in vigorous conditions is expected and some notion of chain of command is really needed. Two totally different concepts.
 
#15 ·
A "licensed" captain means nothing. The 'legality' to wear a funny little hat after you get a captains 'license' occurs in only one country, as far as I know: the USA.

As Sabreman said:
Unless crew are in the military or employed by the ship with the captain as the supervisor, then in all other cases, "crew" are guests of the vessel. As such, the "captain" can't make them do anything. He can ask, plead, cajole or anything else, but the guests are free to do as they please.

The captain title is a courtesy but my legal authority is limited. While I am responsible for my guests safety, I can't make them do anything.
 
#14 ·
Once had crew that couldn't stand watch properly. First night fell asleep, nearly getting us run down. Second night, couldn't recognize a collision course, nearly getting us run down. He was relieved of all watch duty. Captain (licensed)and I took over all watches, no more near collisions.

One authority captains don't have: to make an incompetent crew competent.
 
#17 ·
Here's where I think people get themselves all knotted up. For a boat to operate effectively, there needs to be some sort of understood and agreed upon leadership. There are many decisions to make underway and someone has to make them. If the boat wants to do them all like a commune, go ahead. Although, its well known that is time consuming and you may not always be given the time. The important issue is that everyone understands and agrees how decisions will be made, which could change underway or at each watch. Not knowing or agreeing to leadership is a recipe for disaster.

There is also someone aboard who will be considered responsible for the boats actions in the event any liability is incurred or laws broken. This is very specific by jurisdiction.

However, the idea of there being a Captain aboard a recreational vessel that has inherent authority over subordinates is silly. I will extend that to a boat in a race, without professional paid crew. Leadership needs to be understood and agreed to. In many cases, the owner does not default to leader for a given passage. The owner can refuse to allow his property to leave the dock, but crew must agree to leadership.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Maybe the confusion in the USA is because they think the license to drive a boat makes them a "Captain"?

What does the actual license say?

In the rest of the world the word 'captain' is never used in the license to drive a boat.

[Aditional info]
I've just checked the net and in the USA there is no such thing, that I can find, that makes one a Captain.

The most common is the 6-pack license:

Uninspected Passenger Vessel
Generally, operations that carry 6 or fewer passengers for hire are referred to as Uninspected Passenger Vessels (UPV), 6 Passenger (pax), or 6 Pack operations. .... the vessel operator must hold an Operator Uninspected Passenger Vessel (OUPV) license issued by the Coast Guard.
So that person is not a Captain, merely a vessel Operator.
If there is another type of license often used then lets have a look at it :)

[More additional]
I see how there can be misrepresentation when websites doing the exam call it a captains license:
http://www.boaterexam.com/usa/captainslicense/

 
#21 ·
Maybe the confusion in the USA is because they think the license to drive a boat makes them a "Captain"?

What does the actual license say?

In the rest of the world the word 'captain' is never used in the license to drive a boat.

[Aditional info]
I've just checked the net and in the USA there is no such thing, that I can find, that makes one a Captain.

The most common is the 6-pack license:

So that person is not a Captain, merely a vessel Operator.
If there is another type of license often used then lets have a look at it :)

[More additional]
I see how there can be misrepresentation when websites doing the exam call it a captains license:
Get your U.S. Coast Guard Captain's License Online - 25% OFF!

So I went through all that crap for nothing? Well at least I learned that True Virgins Make Dull Companions. I can still see my instructor, an old crusty salt, blush like a school girl when he explained the mnemonic. I was the only gal in the classroom full of guys. I didn't see what the big embarrassment was all about, they are.:D
 
#19 ·
understood and agreed upon leadership
Agreed, it is not a legal authority, rather a consensual one based on respect. Big difference.

For recreational boaters, I think the whole "captain" thing is silly and probably an artifact of people watching too many movies. Personally, I don't use the term when referring to myself and am uncomfortable when someone calls me by the term. It's like calling oneself an "expert", its quite presumptuous.
 
#20 ·
Mark,

The word Captain is absolutely a colloquialism in the US. Even the USCG uses it to address whomever calls them on the radio. They don't even ask if they are the leader, let alone actually a licensed Captain. It's just a nicety.

The real can of worms here is that there is absolutely no license, permit or otherwise required to skipper a boat here. Some require a safety course, which you need to be able to read and write at the third grade level to pass. It's probably based on our roots in freedom and will likely stay this way for some time. There is a good argument for someone aboard to have demonstrated some higher level of competence.
 
#22 ·
Mark gets confused North of the equator on a few things. Down under a Commercial Captain is referred to as Master class IV or IV. A bit lower on the scale is the "coxswains" ticket. The engineer is called a MED I or II. Marine Engine Driver...
Some of the classes or requirements are so watered down I felt better off before taking them. Not sure I'm any more competent as a Master and a few grand poorer on worthless courses then I was as a simple captain with a lot of sea miles.
 
#24 ·
Well the 100-ton license I hold does say "Master" of steam, motor, sail 100tons, etc. The 6-pack may indeed still say "operator", in fact the 100 ton used to be called "Ocean Operator" if I recall.

That doesn't make everyone else "slaves". But in matters of safety and seamanship, the captain should have the last word, as anarchy tends to be unsafe in a crisis. On a commercial vessel, the crew are employees and have to do what the "boss" says unless it's illegal or obviously unsafe.

With passengers or recreational guests and especially with paying passengers, it's more of a caretaker status. I work for you, and treat you like a guest, or a student, or a passenger as the case may be. When I tell you what to do (put on a lifejacket, move to the other side, get below decks, keep a lookout on somethng) it's for everyone's benefit, assuming I know what I'm doing that is.

And "orders" work best if wrapped in honey rather than vinegar. this is true ashore as well.
 
#27 ·
The ISAF regs for offshore racing put it this way:

The safety of a yacht and her crew is the sole and inescapable responsibility of the Person in Charge who must do his best to ensure that the yacht is fully found, thoroughly seaworthy and manned by an experienced crew who have undergone appropriate training and are physically fit to face bad weather. He must be satisfied as to the soundness of hull, spars, rigging, sails and all gear. He must ensure that all safety equipment is properly maintained and stowed and that the crew know where it is kept and how it is to be used. He shall also nominate a person to take over the responsibilities of the Person in Charge in the event of his incapacitation.
 
#28 ·
On my boat I have the usual bronze plate that says ;"Captain's words are the law" or something like that, and right next to it I have a small box with a printed message that says " If you want to make decisions on this boat, please drop your credit card here"

2 kinds of crew I dislike " I know a shortcut outside the channel" and " Naahh I can tack closer to the big powerboat"
 
#29 ·
Captain is a position on a boat. You do not have to be a Captain to be a captain. Bligh was a Lieutenant when he captained the Bounty.

CAPTAIN or SEA CAPTAIN, mar. law. The name given to the master or commander of a vessel. He is known in this country very generally by the name of master. (q.v.) He is also frequently denominated patron in foreign laws and books.
2. The captains in the navy of the United States, are officers appointed by government. Those who are employed in the mercantile service, have not strictly an official character. They are appointed or employed by the owners on the vessels they command.
3. It is proposed to consider the duty of the latter. Towards the owner of the vessel he is bound by his personal attention and care, to take all the necessary precautions for her safety; to, proceed on the voyage in which such vessel may be engaged, and to obey faithfully his instructions; and by all means in his power to promote the interest of his owner. But he is not required to violate good faith, nor employ fraud even with an enemy. 3 Cranch, 242.
4. Towards others, it is the policy of the law to hold him responsible for all losses or damages that may happen to the goods committed to his charge; whether they arise from negligence, ignorance, or willful misconduct of himself or his mariners, or any other person on board the ship. As soon, therefore, as goods are put on board, they are in the master's charge, and he is bound to deliver them again in the same state in which they were shipped, and he is answerable for all losses or damages they may sustain, unless it proceed from an inherent defect in the article, or from some accident or misfortune which could not be prevented.
5. It may be laid down as a general rule, that the captain is responsible when any loss occurs in consequence of his doing what he ought not to do, unless he was forced by the act of God,. the enemies of the United States, or the perils of the sea.1 Marsh. Ins. 241; Pard. n. 658.
6. The rights of the captain are, to choose his crew as he is responsible for their acts, this seems but just, but a reasonable deference to the rights of the owner require that he should be consulted, as he, as well as the captain, is responsible for the acts of the crew. On board, the captain is invested with almost arbitrary power over the crew, being responsible for the abuse of his authority. Ab. on Shipp. 162. He may repair the ship, and, if he is not in funds to pay the expenses of such repairs, he may borrow money, when abroad, on the credit of his owners or of the ship. Abb. on Sh. 127-8. In such cases, although contracting within the ordinary scope of his powers and duties, he is generally responsible as well as the owner. This is the established rule of the maritime law, introduced in favor of commerce it has been recognized and adopted by the commercial nations of, Europe, and is derived from the civil or Roman law. Abbott, Ship. 90; Story, Ag. Sec. 116 to 123, Sec. 294; Paley, Ag. by Lloyd, 244; 1 Liverm. Ag. 70; Poth. Ob. n. 82; Ersk. Inst. 3, 3, 43; Dig. 4, 9, 1; Poth. Pand. lib. 14, tit. 1; 3 Summ. R. 228. See Bell's Com. 505, 6th ed; Bouv. Inst. Index, h.t.
 
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#30 ·
Traditionally most ships went to sea for extended periods, away from any legal jurisdiction.

Today many of us live under governments which are more totalitarian, and more involved with our daily lives than ever before. Just call 911 and government officers show up in minutes.

The idea of being completely separated from this government involvement for an extended of time may be a new concept to many people. A ship is like a country of its own, and somebody has to be in charge. There must be rules and authority for any group of people to function.

Many people are used to living with governments that have legislative, executive and judicial branches, and the concept that a king or other single person can make a rule and enforce it seems scary and strange. But that's how it has to be. Pick a captain who is reliable and wiser than you are, then you don't have to worry. If something bad happens that puts your lives in danger, then you can mutiny, just like people revolt against their governments.
 
#35 ·
On the USNS Apache (my last sea going duty assignment) I was the CPOIC - Chief Petty Officer in Charge, as senior military on the ships assigned crew I was also the Officer in Charge.
If another group of military came aboard I was still the OIC regardless of rank or senority of the visitors (it happened all the time, especially SEAL and Mine warfare types. Some junior officers didn't get it and had to be shown the regulations and orders).

The ship was actually run by a civilian ships master, 1st mate and 14 other civilian crew. The officers of that crew down to the third mate could direct my actions but not order me to do things. Only I could order the military personnel in the performance of their duties. The military made every voyage /trip whatever for the years we were assigned, the civilians came and went - sometimes monthly, sometimes longer.
As a USNS we were bound by USCG rules.

For a recreational vessel you can call me Person in Charge, Skipper, Admiral, Captain or just Chuck. I'm not licensed nor do I intend to ever be. I sail for pleasure not business.

I consider myself responsible for the safe operation of the boat and it's crew and quests, and that's not a transferable responsibility. If you ignore my directions regarding safety and operation of the boat then you become neither crew nor guest and are either a swimmer or dropped off at the nearest land fall.
I know I'm not always right and welcome discussion and input on all things sailing - but not when that conversation imperils the boat or crew (proper time and place).

Unfortunately 'get topless' doesn't have any logical safety or operational bearing. Nor does 'make me a sandwich' or 'refill my drink'.
 
#38 ·
USNS Apache?

Do you now Tim Lockwood? He is my oldest friend, I have known him since I was 3 years old.

On the USNS Apache (my last sea going duty assignment) I was the CPOIC - Chief Petty Officer in Charge, as senior military on the ships assigned crew I was also the Officer in Charge.
If another group of military came aboard I was still the OIC regardless of rank or senority of the visitors (it happened all the time, especially SEAL and Mine warfare types. Some junior officers didn't get it and had to be shown the regulations and orders).

The ship was actually run by a civilian ships master, 1st mate and 14 other civilian crew. The officers of that crew down to the third mate could direct my actions but not order me to do things. Only I could order the military personnel in the performance of their duties. The military made every voyage /trip whatever for the years we were assigned, the civilians came and went - sometimes monthly, sometimes longer.
As a USNS we were bound by USCG rules.

For a recreational vessel you can call me Person in Charge, Skipper, Admiral, Captain or just Chuck. I'm not licensed nor do I intend to ever be. I sail for pleasure not business.

I consider myself responsible for the safe operation of the boat and it's crew and quests, and that's not a transferable responsibility. If you ignore my directions regarding safety and operation of the boat then you become neither crew nor guest and are either a swimmer or dropped off at the nearest land fall.
I know I'm not always right and welcome discussion and input on all things sailing - but not when that conversation imperils the boat or crew (proper time and place).

Unfortunately 'get topless' doesn't have any logical safety or operational bearing. Nor does 'make me a sandwich' or 'refill my drink'.
 
#36 ·
I remember a day when I was about 16 and working on a charter fishing boat with a group of about 45 mostly men from Phily. There was a pool involved regarding the biggest fish (about 100$) . Majority of them were drinking hard as it was a Friday night..

Well, the fishing was great and we had multiple on at one time, lines tangled, curses flying and then one guy pulls a knife and starts threatening me and or anyone else not to cut his line in order to deal with multiple tangles.

I pull out a gaff, warn the person to cease. that failing, I stick it in the guys shoulder and drag him to the upper deck where the Capt was able to zip tie the guys hands behind him and warn him not to move until we get to the dock.

Cops meet us at the dock and the guy spends at least 24 hrs in pokey and was charged (not exactly sure of the charge but it turned out we had the authority to do what we thought reasonable to ensure the safety of the other passengers).

Lessons learned:
Do not drink too much on a party boat and threaten anyone
Get your tetanus shot at regular intervals..
Sail safe!
 
#37 · (Edited)
Steel-
"Traditionally most ships went to sea for extended periods, away from any legal jurisdiction."
That's a new one on me. Traditionally, back to the dawn of history, every vessel is still under the legal jurisdiction of whatever sovereign ruled its home port and master. The only vessels not under the legal jurisdiction of someone else, would have been pirates. Pretty much by definition.

Chuckles-
I'd bet the "neither fish nor fowl" role of the USNS, coupled with our recent "state of emergency but not state of war" must have enhanced the confusion of everyone, no?

SailRacer-
The guy probably was charged with ADW, assault with a deadly weapon, for making a threat with a knife. Pennsylvania, like most of the old Colonies, would recognize a *commercial*licensed* captain as having rather different authority compared to the "civilian" skipper in the transpac. But even then, most states would also allow for a "citizen's arrest" and in fact there are also militia laws that are largely ignored, which might even impose a duty to act and arrest. (Which is how militia laws started, under the British Crown, to ensure local law enforcement against violent crimes.)
 
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