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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"
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Thread: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft" Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-06-2013 01:54 PM
Robcooper0767
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

PM'ed and thanks!
10-04-2013 11:20 PM
mr_f
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Yes. Definitely. Come on by. I will PM you to coordinate.
10-04-2013 11:13 PM
Robcooper0767
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Went and looked at a Sabre 34 MKI today in Annapolis. Very nice boat, but I don't think it hit the "love it" button after being on a Pearson 34 (83-86) not the 34-2. Nicely made, that's obvious, but felt almost the same size and layout as my P30. P30 beam is 9.5' and the Sabre is 10.5, but the benches looked smaller. This one had a suspicious bow that had a redone painted on non-skid (looked like Interlux) on the entire bow, and the rest of the non-skid was the diamond pattern. The bow felt "soft and squeaked", so think it's moist. Boat has been on the hard for 3 years. I'm sure it would be nice, but since it didn't seem much different from the P30, don't see the reason to change to the Sabre MKI if it doesn't feel much different (and this one had a redone floor/core, bilge was nasty/oily, and the windows obviously leaked (big stains, that were brownish from the obvious re-do of the teak (stained or sanded bare, but not sealed......they said). You'd think you would at least want it to show better if you were selling it.
Contacted the surveyor who did the survey on the Michigan P34 CB 2 years ago. Also called about the Baltimore P34 (5'11" fin) just because it's close by and maybe I can get on it while the Sabre 34 memory is fresh and really compare the "feel".
I'd like to get on board a P33-2 and compare the feel of that one too.
@Mr. F - since you have a 5'11 fin (or 5'9) and I can't go that high, would you still be willing to let me come visit and get a feel?
Found out the marina I'm at (behind the RR bridge in Perryville, MD) will have a limit, on average, of 50' air from DWL. It was a very low tide yesterday and the bridge had 53-54' of clearance.
Problem: Pearson 34 is 48.75' (add 3' antenna)=51.75'; Sabre is about 50' with antenna, so is P33-2 give or take.
That means I am limited to low tide departures and arrivals - and I absolutely don't want to have to work around that again. Where I was last year, I couldn't sail on low tide with 5' draft. Now, it might be different marina and RR bridge. One reason I like the CBs is the draft, so may have to go back to last years marina (no height issues).
These limiters really mess up my sailing time, since I have to go when I can (driven by a 4 year old and her schedule!) and work.
Still waiting for the Insurance turkeys.
09-30-2013 03:58 PM
Robcooper0767
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Alex.
Moved from Carlsbad, CA three years ago after being there, and working in San Diego for 8 years. Sailed out of Oceanside or San Diego Harbor. The Admiral was stationed in Bremerton for 4 years, and (before I knew her), I travelled often to Seattle on Navy business. Lovely area, brother-in-law and family in Portland, OR area.........a bit to wet for us I think
Thanks for all the info on the Engine, Moisture, etc. I just had the Broker take me on-board the boat so I could see the interior. Similar feel to the P-30 in "elbow room", but definitely a modern layout, I like it.
Still want to focus on 33-2 and P34, but cash may prevent it, so 31-2 is a very comfortable option. It's just the idea of going from 30' to 30' (albeit much more modern) that keeps me holding on that concept.
Keep in touch on your info and the thread.......you have alot of info that I'm finding most helpful.
Cheers
09-30-2013 11:15 AM
Alex W
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I happened to read the top of this page and noted that you appear to be moving to a better sailing climate. You considered as far away as California. If you are considering that you might as well consider the Pacific NW. We have no skinny water issues, an inland water system that is as large as the Chesapeake with world class cruising destinations, and great year round sailing with pretty mild temps summer and winter. The wildlife is wonderful here too, just outside of Shilshole Marina (in Seattle) I see porpoises, seals, and sea lions on almost every sail, Orca whales a few times a year, and the salmon have been jumping like crazy for the last few months. It's a bit damp in the winter, but warm enough in good foulies. I don't know anyone who pulls their boat here for the winter.

Moisture: It sounds like that boat does have problems. I wouldn't buy a boat that had moisture issues along the whole deck. At the same time I wouldn't say that it is an endemic issue among Pearsons. I've read other stories of moisture issues just under the toe rail being common on Pearsons, and can explain why that happens.

Diesel: I don't know on engine hours. My engine (stock engine in Pearson 28-2) didn't even come with an hour meter, which made me suspect of meters on other boats with the same engine (Yanmar 2GM20F) which did have them since the meters apparently aren't stock. I could add an engine meter today that claimed my boat had 1000 hours, and that would just be a lie. None of the boats that I looked at had engine meters higher than about 3000 hours.

One way that I can think of it is that 10,000 miles per year on a car is about 350 engine hours at average car speeds of just under 30mph. I wouldn't be excited about the engine a car that had done 323,000 miles in a car (about the equivalent of your 11,320 hours). On the other hand such a boat probably has rigging in amazing shape because it sounds like it was almost never sailed (or the overall boat is extremely tired because it was sailed and cruised every single day). I cruised for 7 weeks this summer and used my boat at least once a week the rest of the year and still put under 200 hours on the engine this year (measured by keeping track of fuel consumed).

Replacing engine mounts on a Yanmar isn't that major of a project. The engine mounts themselves are silly expensive ($100+ ea if I remember correctly). You need to support the engine while removing the old and installing the new ones, then realign the shaft. The engine mount is made with two steel plates that are bonded to a rubber elasometer in the middle. That rubber eventually dries out and fails. A friend with a 1987 boat and Yanmar 3GM30F just replaced his. I have a 1986 2GM20F, don't know if mine are original or not, but they are appear to be in good shape.
09-30-2013 10:18 AM
Robcooper0767
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Alex,
Again, you have given me good info, especially since I do have a preference for Pearson's. The one boat in question had the moisture meter "almost pegged" to the right side of the meter for that full 8-10 (and sometimes 12") out from the edge. The broker seemed to be pretty on the level, and said the boat had acknowledged moisture issues, but "you could probably get 10 years out of it before you had to replace the core/face delamination".. I did ask the guy who re-Awlgripped my P-30 and is a certified repair guy, and he said, "don't even think about it"......so that, and the rest of the info, lead me to start asking the more specific questions of "how bad is bad"......or "what is "bad"". That boat was otherwise really well cared for and owned by the same couple (70's/80's) who are retiring from sailing due to age. but the deck issue was the finality on that specific boat.

All, I guess my pricing erspective was influenced by a conversation I had with Bill Shaw, Jr (yes, his son) about 1 1/2 months ago. He is a broker out of Rhode Island and my understanding of his boat offer comment was 30% of asking price is a good starting point (40% if you want), and many boats will sell for that, especially in this economy......I don't want to have Bill get any backlash, but that's what I noted he said......of course, it can also be personal situation dependent too..
So, I'm thinking I can get a nice boat, that's listed in the 30's for in the 20's, but maybe I'm just dreamin' and it's not that way at all. So, that's why I'm asking so many price questions.
Acknowledged: Condition, equipment, all good points.

Question: Never have owned a diesel. Overall, What is considered low, medium, and high hours? A 33-2 in Mystic (sold) had, no kidding 11,320 hours, and they lowered the asking price about $3,500 for a rebuild, but said the engine ran excellent.
I know diesels can keep going "forever", but where does the knee in the curve start for "high", generally speaking.
Also read motor mounts on 33-2 can go bad and need replacement, any gouge on how to know about that?
09-30-2013 09:55 AM
Robcooper0767
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Thanks Jim,
I wasn't aware that these were available.
Cheers
09-30-2013 02:17 AM
Alex W
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

The toe rail holds mud directly under the rail. That teak toe rail has a 1/4" deep concave cut under it that holds dirt/mud. The plastic cover that wraps around the hull deck joint under the toe rail is about 1.5" to 2" wide and can also hold dirt, but not as much of it. It won't cause high moisture readings 8-10" in from the toe rail, that would be cause for concern. I don't know how accurate these moisture meters are though, how fine of a line do they really find?

I don't see how the Pearson stanchion installation would be more or less likely to cause deck dampness than any other boat in this price range though. As far as I know no manufacturers in this price range were glassing around the core in all deck holes.

I have no specific knowledge of the 31-2, I've just taken apart my 28-2 and inferred from photos online than the 31-2 and 33-2 and most other mid-80s Pearsons were assembled the same way (outward facing flange, lower trim that you remove with phillips screws, larger #14 screws holding teak toe rain, then 5/16" machine screws on roughly 6" centers holding the deck to the hull). If you search my recent posts I made one with photos in it showing how it is assembled.

What's the right price takes research and introspection. Don't just look at the same boat, look at what you'd get for similar prices on similar boats in a similar market. If you have preferences towards one boats layout or other features then consider that in your offer.

As an example of a personal preference: I had a strong preference for the <30' overall length of the Pearson 28-2 because moorage rates at my marina jump by 20% when going from a 30' slip to a 34' slip, and my marina includes bow pulpit and anchor in overall length. The slightly shorter length (29.5 including bow pulpit) of the 28-2 made it $1000/year less in moorage fees compared to 30' boats (C&C 30, Islander 30, CS 30) that I was interested in while the boat had similar PHRF and an interior layout that I preferred. Someone keeping a boat on a mooring ball wouldn't have this concern. As a result I was okay spending a little more on this boat than the others (through it was only slightly more expensive than the C&C 30, and less than the CS 30). I didn't like the lack of a quarterberth in the C&C 30, and my wife didn't like some recent interior upgrades on it, so we would have made a much lower offer on that boat.

How I came up with a price: I felt like that by looking at enough 30' boats and talking to other friends who had recently been in the market that I had a pretty good understanding of what I should offer. I couldn't make many direct purchase comparisons, my boat is not at all common on the west coast, and prices on the east coast appear to have little in common with prices over here. I thought my seller's asking price was pretty good if the boat had an autopilot and a newer plotter. It had neither and a few small things came up in the survey. I bought it for about 10% under his asking price, which covered the survey issues and missing autopilot and most of a new GPS.

Direct comparisons are hard to make anyway, even for the same model. We're talking about boats that are almost 30 years old, and it's unlikely that any 2 of them have been maintained and upgraded exactly the same way. I personally don't find NADA estimates to be very useful, especially on the smaller size boats that I've owned.
09-30-2013 12:43 AM
jimgo
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Rob,
Check NADA and BoatUS. Both should give you average selling prices for boats in average condition. Then you can adjust up or down based in the specifics of the boat in question. For example, If the engine was just rebuilt, that's worth something (maybe $2-4000). By contrast, if the jib and main are rotten or torn beyond repair, I'd knock off $1000-1500.

That strategy at least gives you a rational basis for an offer, rather than just going based on asking price.
09-30-2013 12:33 AM
Robcooper0767
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

OK, OK!! I give up Good points both of you, seriously. and Alex, your information on the moisture/toe rail is priceless.....this is the first I've seen/heard it explained that way and that makes my looking a whole lot easier for that boat. I hope I can afford the 33-2, but not sure if I can. The 31-2 (according to threads, did have a bigger moisture problem, as I noted the one I looked at in Havre de Grace, MD has moisture 8-10" in from the toe rail.
@Alex - Is that still the joint and mud/dirt, or do the 31-2's have a bigger problem?
@Jim - ok....I get it.
The question is: What is a P33-2, a P31-2, P34 and Sabre 34 CB (MkI) really going to sell for if they are all in "good" condition. Prices are all over the map, and in some cases (personal experience here) we price things where we would like them to be, not what they really should be.
Price ranges, that is "purchase prices" for those boats in good condition?
Thanks
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