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Suggestions on lines and headroom...

5K views 25 replies 10 participants last post by  pigslo 
#1 ·
Hi all,

At the moment, I am beginning the 'scouting' phase of my boat search. I'm not seriously planning on putting money down any time soon, but I'm starting to figure out what I like, and wish to narrow the field down a little bit. Lately, I've come to agree with Don Casey's assertion in "This Old Boat" that whichever boat you choose, it should be one that you find beautiful. With that in mind, I've found myself somewhat frustrated by the options in my price/size range.

What I'm looking for is a nice full-keeled seaworthy cruiser between ~25-30 feet LOA. My budget ceiling is approximately $25k. I like the idea of a good used boat, even a fixer-upper would do, as long as it can be returned to sailable condition without undue hardship. I plan on living aboard with my s/o for some time, so having standing headroom (5'9" minimum) at least somewhere in the cabin is essential. With this in mind, I have a single aesthetic criterion that is very difficult for me to compromise on, and which has rendered my search rather difficult.

I HATE doghouses. Can't stand 'em. The way they interrupt the smooth lines of an otherwise beautiful boat just ruins it for me. They're ugly, blocky, and it seems like almost every design that meets my other criteria has them - Alberg 30s, Tritons, Albin Vegas, Bristol 27s...the list goes on.

So far I've found that the Cape Dory 25D and 28 seem to fit the bill, but I'm sure that there must be others out there with a smooth, continuous coachroof that match my criteria. Can any of you recommend some? Google hasn't been much help, and I'd like to be aware of the options available.

Thanks!

-Jonathan
 
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#2 ·
Well I can't answer your question as well as many others probably can, but the problem is that it it is difficult to get the standing head room you desire in a boat that size without having either a protruding coachroof or undesirably high freeboard. At first I hated the look as well, but then I became accustomed to it and it doesn't bother me as much anymore (not sure if that is a good thing or bad thing...)
 
#3 ·
Keck-

Most of the older, full-keel designs, are less spacious than the newer fin-keeled designs-both in beam and headroom generally.

Unfortunately, headroom is not a specification on most boats... and it varies from place to place on a boat.

I don't believe the Cape Dory 25D is going to have the headroom you're looking for... I've been on several Cape Dories, both the 25 and the 25D and neither has all that much headroom IIRC.

The Allied Chance might fit the bill.
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/5/8/5/2/1585224_1.jpg?1161068400000

As might the Bristol 29.9
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/6/1/9/0/1619050_1.jpg?1162334495000

As might the Laguna 30.
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/6/5/9/8/1659846_1.jpg?1169137027000

I believe these are all full-keel designs... but you'd have to double check.
 
#4 ·
Why is a full keel so necessary to you? One of the primary things to determine when buying a boat is how you will use it. Does your intended use make a full keel something desirable, or do you just like the idea of a full keel? Trying to find a boat that meets iron-clad criteria on a limited budget can be very difficult. If no doghouse is your top priority, then you need to start there and find what comes closest to fullfilling your other desires. As Meatloaf sang...."two out of three ain't bad.".
 
#5 ·
Keck 314,
I was looking for the same things when i bought my boat. It has 6'3 headroom throughout the cabin (not bad for 31 feet). It has a full keel and a canoe stern. There are 7 for sale on yachtworld and right now people are desperate to sell becuase of the market so offer way low. The older boats will probably need the deck re-cored (or solid glass) under the maststep. This seems to scare people away but it really isn't that hard to fix yourself (maybe 20-30 hrs). They have a cosmetic teak cap that some people mistake for a rub-rail so make sure its okay. They are beautiful boats! The v-beth is huge and the cabin setees are 74-73 inches long. There is also a quarterberth. I love my Southern Cross 31...they don't make emlike they used to.
 
#6 ·
One word of warning on the Southern Cross 31. I believe it is a cored hull boat... that said... if the hull is in good condition, it shouldn't be a problem.... but if it hasn't been well-maintained, and water has intruded... it's gonna cost some serious bucks to fix it.
 
#7 ·
Thanks for your suggestions! I like the Southern Cross particularly - people seem to be asking quite a bit, but if the market is as you say, then things look better :)

Regarding the requirement for a full keel, the more I read about righting moment, the more I like the idea of a boat that has a lot of it. I just don't trust my own skills to be able to avoid knockdown conditions, and I want a boat that will forgive me if it happens. Donald Street made a pretty convincing case for a full keel in "The Ocean Sailing Yacht", IMHO. Also, it would be harder to foul the rudder on crab pots, etc. I'm aware that there's an endless debate about keel types, but that's the side towards which I feel myself gravitating.

I found out about the CD25D from John Vigor's "20 small sailboats to take you anywhere" which stated that it had 5'11" headroom in the cabin and 5'9" in the head compartment. That seems to have come at the expense of storage and tankage, however. The 28, like the 25D, is an Alberg design, and while some people on this board seem to have mixed feelings about the Cape Dory line, it seems to have earned decent marks even from those normally critical of the brand.
 
#10 ·
The cored hull issue is a bit of a mystery to me. All of the factory adds i have found stated that the 35 and 39 had airex cores while only the later 31's did. I had 2 surveyors look at the boat. Both said the hull was solid glass. I have also seen liturature stating that the hull was only airex cored above the waterline. Airex itself is not affected by water...i.e it doesn't rot. That does not rule out the issue of delamination though, which any good surveyor will identify. I am going to remove all of the thru-hulls soon so I will know more then. I have also heard of some 70's era boats were copied in overseas factories (in which case they wouldn't have used airex), but i have verified my HIN and the boat has a factory interior. Really though, everything about this boat is so much more solid than my Pearson 26.
Now for reality though. Any of the boats you have mentioned are old. Old boats, even with proper care, need lots of work. If you choose to pusue this endeavor rember that boats really are "a big hole in the water into which you pour your money". I was discussing this the other day with an old guy at my yard. He said he didn't feel that way about his 60 or more years of boating. Then I saw his boat. It was covered with a very old, dirty piece of shrinkwrap that he had tied on like a tarp (that says it all). It was a wood boat and he was in the process of "fixing" a prop shaft leak with something that looked like an old can. To each his own...he was very proud of his boat, as we all should be. My point is though, this is the only guy who ever disagreed with me. I paid 11k for my boat (list was 18,900) which i thought was a good deal (fall is a good time because sellers are forced with lowering their price or paying for another winter storage). Since then though I have paid 2k for storage and shrinkwrap, 750$ for surveys and I have been busting my ass all winter working on it and arguing with my wife about it. At times I have felt like I am getting nowhere with the work and everyone i talk to tells me there are more things I should do. To top it all off....I have never even had the boat in the water! BUT...my first good day out in Buzzards Bay I will be grinning ear to ear. This will be my first real seaworthy boat, I own it outright and I will have rebuilt almost everyhting on it myself. I will have spent 100's of hours with my new friend before it ever hits the water. When i'm working on it sometimes i rest and imagine it's motion in the ocean, I have spent many nights lying awake thinking about it. Call me crazy, but that has to mean more than just buying a new boat and sailing away from the dock. I kind of think of it as a muscle car (my old hobby). The only difference is that you would never replace a 350 or 427 with an electric motor (here we go!) because the #'s wouldn't match!
 
#13 · (Edited)
Actually, in this case, he is referring to a cabin roof that has two different levels... where the headroom below changes. If you look at the Alberg 30, you'll see that forward, the cabintop is slightly lower than it is just before the cockpit. You can see it in this photo, about halfway between the smaller forward ports and the larger aft ports:



If a Cape Dory or Alberg 30 had a flush deck, like the Tartan 10, it would have about 3-1/2' of headroom. :eek:

 
#15 ·
Giulietta-

Needless to say the Tarten Ten has very, very little headroom—probably less than 3'.
 
#17 ·
Oh, BTW, here is a boat that has a cabin, but no doghouse.

This is a Cape Dory 28, which is also designed by Carl Alberg, who designed the Alberg 30, which is the upper photo I posted earlier.

 
#19 ·
southerncross31 said:
The cored hull issue is a bit of a mystery to me.... I had 2 surveyors look at the boat Both said the hull was solid glass. .... I am going to remove all of the thru-hulls soon so I will know more then.
Southern - even if the hull is cored I'd hope and expect that the builder used solid glass in way of any thru hulls - so you shouldn't see exposed core when you remove them. If you do I would suspect the throughhulls were added after the fact - or the builder took some shortcuts.
 
#20 · (Edited)
SouthernCross31-

Even if the thru-hulls were added after the fact, if they were done properly, the holes should have been potted with thickened epoxy after removing the core from the area... if that's not the case... it can lead to serious problems.
 
#21 ·
My two cents ... Fixer-uppers are rarely more economical in the long run. You are going to end up having to buy a lot of new parts at retail prices. The biggest advantage they offer is the opportunity to modify and rebuild the boat just the way you want it. Pay attention to things like balance and center of gravity when you are doing it though. You can adversely affect the sailing characteristics of a boat by moving things around too much. As a general rule - don't move or alter the shape of bulkheads - they're fairly important bits. If I was looking with your criteria, I'd spend time checking out "custom" built boats, and lesser known brands. A lot of these are crap but a lot of them are well-made decent performers. Their market value is lower because they may be homebuilt or home-finished, or they may have been built by a little-known but very competent boatyard. Also - be very, very, very, very careful of cored hulls ! Your budget dictates that you'll be looking at boats that will probably have had multiple owners previous to you. All it takes is one fool somewhere in the chain to drill a hole somewhere and the hull is ruined. It will cost far more money than you have available to fix properly. Something else to consider is the ferro-cement market. BE VERY CAREFUL, do some reading and checking, but if you find a good solid hull, then you've found a good boat indeed. Unlike any other hull material, the older these boats get, the stronger they get (up to about 100 years or so). The headroom issue: as a rule of thumb - subtract three inches or so from the brochures' stated headroom and you'll have a pretty good idea of whether or not you'll fit (You're probably going to be wearing shoes). When you are looking at boats on Yachtworld et. al., remember that the prices listed are rarely what the boats actually sell for - if you see something you like, contact the seller/broker and tell them how much you have. A lot of these boats have been for sale for upwards of a year and people will often negotiate heavily. And when you finally get tired of looking and comparing and cheking and researching, well just buy something and get on with it. There's no perfect boat and there's no perfect way to buy it. Ponder less and sail more !
 
#22 ·
The biggest advantage [fixer-uppers] offer is the opportunity to modify and rebuild the boat just the way you want it.

I actually like the idea of this, myself. There are many things I can imagine myself changing about nearly any boat I get. I agree that trim and CG are things to be extremely careful of, however. Good idea, too, with the custom and lesser-known brands. If you are familiar with any of the latter, let me know!

I also hadn't considered shoes in my headroom calculations. I'd guess that makes me about 5'9" or so...depending on the shoe.

As a general rule, about how far below asking price can one go and still have a decent chance of getting the boat? 1/3?

Thanks again to all...lots to think about!

And Pigslo: Looks like quite a nice boat! A little longer than I'm looking for, but the layout looks cool - especially the galley :)
 
#23 ·
Lesser known brands ... not sure which coast you're on ... out west look for Cascade - strong hulls that have been sold both as kits and as finished boats, Samson ferro-cement boats (good quality), in the Great Lakes area Northern, Northstar, Kelt, Nordica, Halman, Hinterhoeller, Ouyang, out east look for Paceship, Stevens, Morse, Edey and Duff, in the south try Hake. When you are looking at websites names like Mason, Roberts, Colvic, and the ever-popular "Custom", are indicators that the boats may be home-built. Another option to consider is buying a stripped out racer and fitting it out for cruising - Nelson Marek and the like are great options. Right now on Yachtworld there is a Peterson 34 for 25K - great boat ! There is a beautiful Vineyard Vixen, a small Valiant, and my personal favourite - a Rhodes Bounty. Check out the Rhodes Bounty, it was built when fibreglass was still a novelty,so the hull is super-strong, the lines are beautiful, and you might just be able to work out some creative financing. As a rule of thumb, when I buy a boat, I start with an offer that is 50% of asking. I have never paid more than 70% of asking, and am in the process of buying boat number 6. If you have the time, it is worthwhile going through the websites and making a list of the boats that you like, the date you listed them, and the asking price. Check periodically to see what hasn't been sold. When you are ready to purchase, go back through this list and start putting in lowball offers...you'll be surprised how many people say yes. Good luck !
 
#24 ·
Faster, SD,
Thanks for the info. I was aware of that and was going to see if there were plugs when i removed the thru-hulls. My idea being that if there are no plugs than the hull is solid glass> Am I barking up the right tree here? Anyway, I'm not too concerned about it. The hull is fine and I am going to have it blasted to the gel coat with walnuts and paint it with Phasecoat. Has anyone here used this product yet?
 
#25 ·
southerncross31 said:
Faster, SD,
Thanks for the info. I was aware of that and was going to see if there were plugs when i removed the thru-hulls. My idea being that if there are no plugs than the hull is solid glass> Am I barking up the right tree here? Anyway, I'm not too concerned about it. The hull is fine and I am going to have it blasted to the gel coat with walnuts and paint it with Phasecoat. Has anyone here used this product yet?
Nope... if the installation of the thru-hulls was done properly, all you'll see is solid glass or solid epoxy in the area where the thru-hull was. If it was done wrong, you will clearly see the core... however, not seeing a core doesn't mean it isn't a cored hull. I would be concerned about it, as hull delamination due to the hull being cored and water getting is exceptionally expensive to repair.

From what I understand, Phasecoat is a non-toxic anti-fouling paint.

It is good for boats that are regularly used, but not good if the boat is a dock queen...since it depends on the boat's movement through the water to help keep the hull clear. How well it works will probably depend on where you are located... it would probably work fine in cooler and temperate waters, but probably not as well in the tropics, where growth is significantly more aggressive.

Mind you , this is not from my personal experience with it, but from what I've found out by talking to people about it at various marinas. I haven't used it myself so YMMV.

BTW, as a point of educating a relative N00b... you really should be starting a new thread when you ask a question that is completely off-topic and unrelated to the existing thread. It is considered somewhat rude to hijack a thread as a general rule.
 
#26 ·
You know there is a book I saw at B&N that has several hundred pictures of boats and how to identify them. Quite comprehesive as a one source to see a lot of profiles in one place. It is aranged in order of size of boat. Another thing to do is go to yachtworld and peruse the listings as most have photos and specs. This is certainly a fun part of boat acquisition so make it fun. I remember thr road trips to see actual boats in a 300 mile radius with a stop for lunch and or dinner and perhaps a visit to the towns museum or other local attractions. Always good seafood since most will be in marina towns. Just great fun.
pigslo
 
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