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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Bolt on Keel
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Thread: Bolt on Keel Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-18-2013 04:03 PM
bobperry
Re: Bolt on Keel

Hello:
You bring up good points but no.

I am talking about the overall cost of building the boat. It's fewer steps and easier steps to do internal ballast. That's why it's done. I'm not speculating. Fitting and fairing an external keel is a lot more work than dropping a rough slug of ballast into a grp keel envelope.

Most boat yards are built with 'mezzanine" level that allows the workers to access the boat during construction without using a ladder.

When you see that boat being trucked with the keel off laying on the trailer it is most propbably to avoid being over regulation shipping height. Generally around 12.5'.
09-18-2013 03:29 PM
hellosailor
Re: Bolt on Keel

Bob-
I was thinking about "cheaper" when that was first asked and, not knowing, at first thought an internal keel might be cheaper. But then I started to wonder about the "indirect" costs of having an encapsulated keel.
You've now got to have a building that is perhaps eight feet taller, because the keel is a part of the hull from the start, and that makes the hull "taller" all during production.
You've now got to shift thousands of pounds more weight in one unit during production, as the ballast usually has to be installed before the deck goes on.
You've now got to send every worker and every internal fitting six or eight feet higher up into the air to get it into the hull, time, expense, and some added risk.

Having an externally hung keel allows the hull and the entire production facility/process to be literally smaller and faster, which should mean cheaper. And I've seen a large boat delivered by barge, with the keel sitting next to it in a cradle, waiting to be rejoined at the delivery site after a trip from NZ to NY.

So I'm just wondering...when you say the encapsulated ballast is cheaper, is that just based on the materials used, or on an analysis of all the manufacturing factors affected by that choice? It would seem to be a more complex "real" cost issue than just the materials. And not being intimate with boatbuilding, I can only make a guess at that.

(FWIW, my gut preference has always been to external too. I just don't like "sealed" assemblies very much when there's any chance they'll need to be accessed in the future.)
09-18-2013 03:09 PM
bobperry
Re: Bolt on Keel

I too would prefer external ballast. It has design advantages in terms of shaping the keel With internal ballast the designer is limited in shaping the keel to a shape that can be pulled from a mold.

Bouncing around the rocky PNW it's nice to have that big lead "bumper" down there.
09-18-2013 01:59 PM
Maine Sail
Re: Bolt on Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by champlain94 View Post
Would you purchase a boat with a bolt on keel VS encapsulated. I looked at an Ericson which is a great sailboat. I had no idea they have bolt on keels. There is water in the bildge of this boat. Im not sure where its coming from but it tasted salty. I researched bolt on keels. Wow it cost a lot of money to have them dropped and repaired properly. There is enough maintenance and cost with owning a sailboat. This is all new to me. What is your opinion?
Actually I would buy a bolt on external ballast before encapsulated. For a rocky granite coast encapsulated ballast would probably be my last choice unless really well executed..

I have seen far too many encapsulated boats hit rocks and then require months of "drying out" the keel before any repairs can be made. Watched an Island Packet sit on the hard burning up an entire season before it was dry enough to repair.

On the other side I have seen external lead patched up while still in the slings and dropped back in all in the same day.

I have also seen encapsulated keels split open in the winter due to entrapped water likely from an earlier grounding and improper dry-out time... While there are some builders who did encapsulated well, such as Caliber, many do not and the dry out times after a hit can be extensive. This means an out of commission boat for a good part of the sailing season.

This was one of my customers boat with internal ballast. The internal ballast got wet, it froze and split the entire keel bed meaning more water drained into the encapsulation. Arghhhh... Note the upwardly cracked fiberglass between the bilge hoses...




For those who don't think bolt on is robust enough this was a Hunter 340, a boat many pooh-pooh as a "production boat". Pretty darn tough, if I do say so myself....

Check out this chunk out of a lead keel below!!! That was a HARD HIT, about as hard as it gets. This boat did not sink nor lose the keel. All keel bolts were still intact despite there being only a few of them compared to some other builders in this size range and this was..

This was a FULL BORE hit to solid immovable granite. Both the keel and hull survived to sail another day. While the keel was re-set it was more to inspect and die test the bolts.


If that 4100 pound lead keel on a 11,000 pound Hunter 340, with only 5 keel bolts, can handle that, how do you suppose the 3850 pound 12 bolt keel on this 36' 8900 pound day sailor would do? It would likely move the granite!!



There are differences in quality among encapsulation built boats as well as external bolt on. Buy a well built example of either and you'll be doing well.

I don't hear anyone running away from world cruiser brands such as Morris, Passport, Hinckley, Halberg Rassy, Malo, Cape Dory, Bristol, Gozzard Yachts, Valiant, Pacific Seacraft etc. etc.. all of which use external ballast. In fact the opposite is true and most of these boats are some of the most coveted cruisers ever built.
09-18-2013 01:46 PM
bobperry
Re: Bolt on Keel

Champ:
No. Other way around. Cheaper and easier to do an encapsulated keel. That's one reason almost all the boats out of Taiwan had encapsulated keels. When we did the Lafitte 44 I think that was the very first Taiwan production boat to have outside ballast.
09-17-2013 02:37 AM
champlain94 So a bolt on keel was designed originally as a money saving adventure? It's cheaper to build a boat with a bolt on keel than an encapsulated keel?
08-17-2013 12:02 AM
Jeff_H
Re: Bolt on Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I have never seen an encapsulated keel that anyone would regard as "failed" or loose even with voids detectable on the sides.
You may never have seen a failed encapsulated keel but the ballast keel on my familiy's Vanguard ended up near the sea wall at Fort Totten and the rest of the Vanguard and its encapsulation envelope ended up at the bottom of the East River. When I worked at Direcktors a Cheoy Lee was brought in on a salvage barge with the bottom of its encapsulation keel sheered where he missed the entrance to Gvt cut. Most of the ballast was gone there too.

But I have also seen bolt on keels with bad keel bolts so I also know this is a matter of pick your poison.
08-16-2013 11:49 PM
SloopJonB
Re: Bolt on Keel

Just imagine what you'd have if that builder had bolted a keel on.
08-16-2013 10:52 PM
Capt Len
Re: Bolt on Keel

I remember a encapsulated keel that munched its prow on a rock. Looked like a small reglassing job until the grinder let all the sand run out. (Taiwan sand)
08-16-2013 10:03 PM
SloopJonB
Re: Bolt on Keel

I have never seen an encapsulated keel that anyone would regard as "failed" or loose even with voids detectable on the sides.

Bolt ons on the other hand.......

I've had both styles, lead and iron fins, lead encapsulated and steel plates. I've mounted and remounted lead and iron fins. I've helped pour punchings into slurry in a moulded fin - you name it. I regard encapsulated as the most trouble and worry free. There is a bit of a performance loss due to the extra thickness but I can live with that - it would take a race course to detect the difference.
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