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Self steering dilemma

8K views 57 replies 16 participants last post by  chall03 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey folks, trying to make some decisions about our self steering before we head off again next year and would appreciate all and any advice.

Our boat currently has a Autohelm st4000+ wheel pilot.

Before our last big cruise up to the Great Barrier Reef I was going to replace it with a below deck autopilot but I didn't. Time and economics got away from me and it was one thing that didn't get replaced. In fact I have to confess it was the one thing that got no attention whatsoever before we left. I pretty much downloaded a manual for it and crossed my fingers.

As it turned out it never missed a beat, we used it 80-90% of the time on passage, upwind/downwind, lightwinds and 30+ knots it held us true.

Next year we are planning to again go north, but then to also head out into the near Pacific. So we are are talking a couple of 500-600 nm passages and time off the beaten track. We will be doublehanded most of the time.

I am looking at a couple of choices,

1) Replace with below deck autopilot( probably Raymarine, although Coursemaster a local product looks reasonable). My issue with this is power consumption on a long passage given our pretty modest systems( we have 300ah in the house bank, 200w solar and an oversized alternator). I am also still struggling to trust something electronic offshore and away from a Raymarine dealer. This would be about a 3k project, but might escalate if we need to beef up our power generation.

3)Purchase a new Raymarine Wheel pilot. I get why below deck models are better, but our current st4000+ seems to do every thing I need it too. We have no plans to circumnavigate or enter the southern ocean. 1.5K project.

2) Purchase a Hydrovane. (I prefer this auxiliary rudder style of vane for our centre cockpit yacht.) and use our existing long suffering st4000+ for light winds and motoring. I like the idea of a vane. This however would be a 6k project and in reality I am wondering if the couple of long passages we will do justify this cost, also it would mean our st4000+ is still being relied upon some of the time, so I would be concerned about then trying to get hold of spares etc for it, and doing some preventative maintenance.

3)Keep existing St4000. Do preventative maintenance, take alot of spares. Hope for the best. Be ready to hand steer and know that's the price to save 6k.

Yes I realise this is another autopilot vs Windvane thread. :)
 
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#2 ·
Buy a couple of cheap spares for your st 4000 on ebay etc. Down wind you might think of a little less mainsail...easier on the autopilot. If you were going to be out longer and for greater distances then the windvane is the way to go.

sailing up the Qld coast behind the barrier reef has got to be one of the worlds greatest sails, flat waters, winds aft the beam and a decent anchorage every 50 to 60 miles...
On the way back the reach from Vanuatu to Bundy is another dreamy passage...don't forget to call into Chesterfield reef on the way home...
 
#7 ·
I am looking at a couple of choices,

1) Replace with below deck autopilot( probably Raymarine, although Coursemaster a local product looks reasonable). My issue with this is power consumption on a long passage given our pretty modest systems( we have 300ah in the house bank, 200w solar and an oversized alternator). I am also still struggling to trust something electronic offshore and away from a Raymarine dealer. This would be about a 3k project, but might escalate if we need to beef up our power generation.

3)Purchase a new Raymarine Wheel pilot. I get why below deck models are better, but our current st4000+ seems to do every thing I need it too. We have no plans to circumnavigate or enter the southern ocean. 1.5K project.

2) Purchase a Hydrovane. (I prefer this auxiliary rudder style of vane for our centre cockpit yacht.) and use our existing long suffering st4000+ for light winds and motoring. I like the idea of a vane. This however would be a 6k project and in reality I am wondering if the couple of long passages we will do justify this cost, also it would mean our st4000+ is still being relied upon some of the time, so I would be concerned about then trying to get hold of spares etc for it, and doing some preventative maintenance.

3)Keep existing St4000. Do preventative maintenance, take alot of spares. Hope for the best. Be ready to hand steer and know that's the price to save 6k.

Yes I realize this is another autopilot vs Windvane thread. :)
Also there is the Hydrovane and a new tiller AP option (The Hydrovane is designed for this). Some more expense but maybe the most reliable combination?

Is it feasible to remove the Hydrovane when selling the boat? Seems like that could be a consideration.
 
#8 ·
You could always add the windvane later...6K buys a lot of island time. Also you can pick up a used vane for a lot less then 6K.
 
#10 ·
..6K buys a lot of island time. Also you can pick up a used vane for a lot less then 6K.
Yeah. It is a trap, one can very easily end up with the perfect cruising boat, and no money with which to go cruising. We are looking out for used units trust me :) Issue is that a servo type, ie Monitor or Aries etc would be a little more of a PITA install wise on our boat.

Chall,
Our girl has an Hydravane with the Tiller Pilot option. While we have only used it infrequently and never the tiller pilot, previous owner swore by the thing. You need to be generating a fair amount of juice to keep a powered auto pilot running 24 hours a day. We had a Raymarine wheel pilot on our old boat and while it functioned perfectly well it was damnably noisy compared to below deck and/or wind vane.
The juice is the worry.We also have done alright with the wheel pilot along the coast, but do tend to motor for a few hours a day to top up on multi-day passages. If we are going to the Louisiades then I would prefer to not be burning through the diesel on passage.
 
#9 ·
Chall,
Our girl has an Hydravane with the Tiller Pilot option. While we have only used it infrequently and never the tiller pilot, previous owner swore by the thing. You need to be generating a fair amount of juice to keep a powered auto pilot running 24 hours a day. We had a Raymarine wheel pilot on our old boat and while it functioned perfectly well it was damnably noisy compared to below deck and/or wind vane.

Andrew B
 
#11 ·
In a worst-case scenario, which is safer/easier to work on? Assume tools & parts aboard, but no help within 500km, which can you fix in the middle of a dark and stormy night without damaging delicate bits of your anatomy?
 
#12 · (Edited)
Come to think of it, isn't there a less expensive option than Hydravane ? Yes I know they are very good indeed and for a round the world voyager probably the best option but with your boat @ 35' and working on the Pacific voyage ?

My old 28'er had a Plastimo which was more than adequate for what we needed and a damn sight cheaper than Hydravane.

btw ... has anyone any concerns about mounting a wind vane under solar array ? The top of the vane is getting close to the frame and I wonder whether or not air flow might be disturbed.
 
#13 ·
Come to think of it, isn't there a less expensive option than Hydravane ? Yes I know they are very good indeed and for a round the world voyager probably the best option but with your boat @ 35' and working on the Pacific voyage ?

My old 28'er had a Plastimo which was more than adequately for what we needed and a damn sight cheaper than Hydravane.
Yes in theory. In reality I am not havng much luck. I am open to recommendations if anyone does genuinely know of a cheaper suitable alternative.

In terms of brand new units I have quotes from 4 different manufacturers. All within $1000 of each other. Second hand there was a Hydrovane on Ebay a month ago, a 70's model that looked like it had been in the back of a shed for 10 years and it was for sale for 1.5k, i would of spent alot more money making it work.

I could look to used servo style vanes, and I very well might. But on a centre cockpit these would be a PITA, and mean a complete rebuild of our swim ladder as well.

Your right....I hope, but damned if I can find it at the moment!!!
 
#15 ·
I am really interested to hear that as I know you have been to sea once or twice :)

In reality I am not interested in the whole theoretical sailing forum discussion on this, but what people are actually finding and actually doing out there. For us to buy one would be a big chunk of change, the time and effort for the install one more thing to do and we would then have it attached to our butt forever more.

So ummm why??
 
#16 ·
I wouldn't go to see with out it. Zero mechanical failures in 14 years. No amp draw. Easy to use. looks good. better then any crew out there...
 
#17 ·
Couple of things (what follows are my own opinions, YMMV):

Firstly, the modern auto pilots on a voyage use a lot less power than most people think. The computers used sense the sea state by checking for repetitive movements and if there are any they are over time, eliminated. By the time you have been at sea for a few days, all of the sea state has been removed and only course adjustment remains. We reached a stage in all our passages where the movements on the wheel were almost imperceptible and the current draw was the same.

Secondly, auto pilots work in almost all conditions. We sailed with ours from the USA to New Zealand in widely differing conditions and the time that we spent at the wheel would be less than 1%. We only took the wheel when we went into ports/anchorages, the rest of the time the pilot did the work. A windvane will not do this - you will spend a lot more time hand steering.

Thirdly, a wind vane does not steer a straight course - it basically waddles down a zig zag course correcting itself all along the way. How many miles does that add? I don't know but it does add miles.

Fourthly, a wind vane can't be made to adjust to shifting wind. If the wind shifts 10 degrees in the early evening and you're not paying attention, you could be well off course by the morning. A pilot can do both - steer a course or steer to the wind whichever you choose. You may ask why would you not want to follow the wind. Well when you're sailing off the wind (which is most of the time), an auto pilot will hold your course with very little effect on the set of the sails or boat performance.

Fifthly (is there such a word?), a vane takes up a lot of room, not only with its installation on the stern but with control lines coming into the cockpit. They're always in the way.

By now you're correctly of the understanding that I don't like wind vanes that much - I had an Aries on an earlier boat and even though it was at the time one of the best available, I hardly ever used it - it was too much work. I would not have another Vane even if given it for free. To add a few batteries to your electricity reserve is very little money compared to the cost of a "decent" vane.

Just a question (and I confess to not having any background) I have had discussions with sailors in NZ regarding a wind vane made in Australia called a Fleming. They gave it rave reviews in terms of performance but I don't think it was particularly cheap or small. I don't know much about it but have you had a look at it?
 
#22 · (Edited)
Couple of things (what follows are my own opinions, YMMV):

Firstly, the modern auto pilots on a voyage use a lot less power than most people think. The computers used sense the sea state by checking for repetitive movements and if there are any they are over time, eliminated. By the time you have been at sea for a few days, all of the sea state has been removed and only course adjustment remains. We reached a stage in all our passages where the movements on the wheel were almost imperceptible and the current draw was the same.
True, if you have a boat that balances well and are a good enough sailor to be able to trim to conditions. What we see repeated in anchorages from the US to Thailand is boats with broken autopilots(motherboards in auto helm 5000, 6000 series) broken rams and hydraulics(most) broken fittings on attachments from ram to rudder post(all). All sorts of electrical issues, surrounded by NEMA interface issues(trying to make everything talk to each other) Power consumption has gone down for most, IF, and that is the big one, your sail trim and balance are in accord. Most new offshore sailors will be "over" canvased" in the belief it is faster and the
"AP" can handle it.

Secondly, auto pilots work in almost all conditions. We sailed with ours from the USA to New Zealand in widely differing conditions and the time that we spent at the wheel would be less than 1%. We only took the wheel when we went into ports/anchorages, the rest of the time the pilot did the work. A windvane will not do this - you will spend a lot more time hand steering.
True & False- Yes electric works in most conditions, until it doesn't. Then what? I still like a stint at the wheel, pretty boring to have the AP and Windvane do all the work. Most folks will not know how the boat is really sailing unless they get on the wheel. The electric AP will falsely let you think everything is fine...

Thirdly, a wind vane does not steer a straight course - it basically waddles down a zig zag course correcting itself all along the way. How many miles does that add? I don't know but it does add miles.
Somewhat true-This is the big key in the learning factor on using a wind vane. Windvane steering favors a a reduced main and more headsail (tradewind sailing, Off the wind). Also sheets need to be a looser. If your zig zagging all over you probably have to much main and are rounding up, the electric AP's are correcting for this all the time, maybe just a bit faster. The additional miles are so small as to be insignificant for me. I think we go a bit faster with sailing the vane, the sails trimmed to the wind, our Polar's suggest something in the 135 degree range anyway, which is darn near perfect in trade wind conditions.

Fourthly, a wind vane can't be made to adjust to shifting wind. If the wind shifts 10 degrees in the early evening and you're not paying attention, you could be well off course by the morning. A pilot can do both - steer a course or steer to the wind whichever you choose. You may ask why would you not want to follow the wind. Well when you're sailing off the wind (which is most of the time), an auto pilot will hold your course with very little effect on the set of the sails or boat performance.
True & False- The electric pilot will steer the course, if the wind shifts it will affect your sail trim. Why would you not be paying attention all night? Not looking at the course or trim for 12 hours? OK, trade wind sailing is easy but still, you need to be looking at things....electric or windvane.

Fifthly (is there such a word?), a vane takes up a lot of room, not only with its installation on the stern but with control lines coming into the cockpit. They're always in the way.
True & False- Boat design is a huge factor. Center cockpits are really tough for Windvane steering. However, Double enders are darn near perfect...Sugar scoop sterns, swim steps etc all make the windvane steering installation a challenge. A lot more thought needs to go into leading the lines into the cockpit... A proper set up minimizes the run and reduces friction. When not at sea, I remove them from the wheel, a 2 minute operation.

By now you're correctly of the understanding that I don't like wind vanes that much - I had an Aries on an earlier boat and even though it was at the time one of the best available, I hardly ever used it - it was too much work. I would not have another Vane even if given it for free. To add a few batteries to your electricity reserve is very little money compared to the cost of a "decent" vane.
Maybe just part of the learning curve and installation...

Just a question (and I confess to not having any background) I have had discussions with sailors in NZ regarding a wind vane made in Australia called a Fleming. They gave it rave reviews in terms of performance but I don't think it was particularly cheap or small. I don't know much about it but have you had a look at it?
I have heard good things about the Fleming as well.

I have a small wheel pilot and use it for motoring and some light dead down wind work. This is a good combo for me. The Monitor has more then paid for itself in reliability and durability. Never had to wait for wind vane parts in exotic ports. I
 
#18 · (Edited)
Sorry to say, after my one & only experience with a Hydrovane, I was not particularly impressed...

One was fitted to the Hallberg-Rassy 43 I delivered from Trinidad to Annapolis earlier this summer... It did not handle the typical tradewind conditions pictured below very well at all, we gave up on it after fiddling with it for a few hours... The boat had a generator - a Fisher-Panda that at least worked in F-P's typically 'intermittent' fashion - so being able to run the AP 24/7 was not an issue for us...

In fairness, the owner swore by it... And, I realize there can be a real learning curve to dialing in a vane to a particular boat... But I have considerable experience with the Sailomat on my own boat, and with Monitors on others, so I believe my understanding of servo-pendulum vanes is at least adequate... I simply couldn't get this Hydrovane to perform satisfactorily, and of course perhaps that's just me, but the performance wasn't anything close to what I've typically seen with a servo-pendulum vane... The H-R 43 is a pretty powerful rig, and we were pressing her pretty good in some fairly boisterous conditions, but I would have expected better results.... but again, that is only ONE experience, I could be happily surprised the next time around - but my general impression is that the size of that auxiliary rudder simply isn't sufficient to steer such a boat, in such conditions... It could very well be fine on a smaller boat, perhaps...

One thing I really didn't like, was the mounting of the rudder, how 'permanent' it has to be on passage, always immersed with no provision for folding it up out of the water... We removed it once we entered a period of flat calm and had to motor for a few days... Without the sugar scoop configuration of the 43's transom, that would have been a very difficult operation, and I can't imagine having to re-install the rudder at sea without such a transom, or having to go over the side in a dinghy to do so on a larger boat...

Obviously, I'm in the camp of those one who is a big fan of vanes - if I had to choose a single piece of gear on my boat as my favorite, and the best money I've ever spent, it would be my Sailomat...

Modern autopilots are fantastic, no question about it... But if I were doing long passages shorthanded relying on a pilot alone, I'd certainly want to be carrying the makings of pretty much a complete spare...

 
#19 ·
Mark -- Is your comment re: windvanes mostly about the risk of deviating off course with changes in wind direction, esp. when single or short-handed? As someone who singlehands a lot, what do you use for backup, if anything? Is heaving-to for rest realistic if all else fails?

Omatako -- Excellent description of the benefits of modern AP's. Without taking anything away from windvanes, I wholeheartedly agree and have an excellent AP which I've used in all conds., 99% of the time, with zero problems. I am still, however, wrestling with a suitable backup for my 47', 20T center cockpit sloop for lengthy passagemaking. Along with AP spares, the CPT wheel pilot & Hydrovane are the front-runners thus far. What, if anything, do you have for backup? The little I know about the Fleming, btw, is it's a servo-type, all stainless steel, and seems to enjoy a good rep.

JonE -- Always nice to have feedback from someone with direct experience. The servos have the rep of working better the worse the conditions. I've always been a bit dubious whether this applied to the non-servo Hydrovane, esp. on larger, heavier boats. In the conditions you described on your trip on the HR, do you think it would have been realistic -- hypothetically and assuming you lost your self-steering and were single/short-handed -- to have heaved-to when rest was needed? Nice pic, btw.

Thanks all for the helpful info.

Dan
 
#31 · (Edited)
Mark -- Is your comment re: windvanes mostly about the risk of deviating off course with changes in wind direction, esp. when single or short-handed? As someone who singlehands a lot, what do you use for backup, if anything? Is heaving-to for rest realistic if all else fails?
Hi Dan,

I know 3 boats lost thru wind vanes and only 2 were solo.

Yes, its a wind shift problem... and one of the examples hass appeared in the next post to yours!

I dont have a back-up my Raymarine (ex charter boat so its done lots of miles) has had 35,000nms trouble free except for a small spot just north of Bahamas where it started playing up and I had to hand steer for a bit. Funnily enough the error occured again at the same latitude in the ICW 6 months later!

My back up would be to hand steer and hove to when tired. On a long passage it wouldnt be fun... but it would be a bit character building.

Jeanne has just completed her 3rd single handed circumnavigation.
The back up was a Hydrovane which just kept on ticking.
Well, you mis-read it or she is lying.
In 2008 her boat was lost on a mexican beach (after I met her both sides of Panama) when her overslept her alarm and while she was asleep the wind changed and her wind vane put her boat on the boach as a total loss. The boat wasnt as good as the Najad so it was fortuitous for her to get an insurance payout plus whatever to have the new Najad built.

Mark
 
#20 ·
Jeanne has just completed her 3rd single handed circumnavigation.

Her blog is here CLICKY.

If you read it through you will see she had problems with her autopilots on all three. There were times when her wind generator was broken, both main engine and generator engine were U/S, the sun was not shining and her batteries were flat.

The back up was a Hydrovane which just kept on ticking.

If I was going on multiday passages I think I would fit one.
 
#23 ·
If you read it through you will see she had problems with her autopilots on all three. There were times when her wind generator was broken, both main engine and generator engine were U/S, the sun was not shining and her batteries were flat.
I can't help feeling that it is a tough indictment on APs suggesting that "she had problems with her autopilots on all three" when it seems to me in real terms she had problems with a whole lot of other stuff that negatively influenced her AP. Just fix the other stuff and the AP will work again. :) Sorry, I never read her blog (no time) so maybe I'm supposing things again.

But to me that's like saying "I removed those controls lines to get more comfort in the cockpit and now that that d@mned wind vane isn't working again".
 
#21 ·
Andre,
Interesting point re power consumption. I guess it also comes down to just how well balanced the boat is.

JonE,
I confess I've never fully trusted our windvane, though that may be inexperience on my part. Ref the fitting of the rudder .... you are correct, it is a pain in the arse. We find that rudder needs to be shipped before we leave port. The idea of having to ship the thing at sea is not worth considering.

Andrew B

SeaLife Mark,
Why not ?

For me I'd not replace AutoPilot with Windvane but I'd like to have both.
 
#27 ·
Had a Fleming on a Tayana. Beautifully made and worked flawlessly.Was sensitive to which sized blade you had up and tilt of that blade but easy to learn what to do. On current have raymarine. Have little experience with it. Told if I carry a spare ram and rudder angle sensor should be fine. Told once you get rid of software hiccoughs electronics very unlikely to break. ? What spares do folks using AP carry?. Is it worth the money to carry spares? Or is money better spent toward a hydro generator? ( have solar/ wind already).
 
#28 ·
Thanks Andre, Jon E, aeventyr60, outbound et all. Alot of food for thought.

On power consumption I must say that we have found our existing wheel pilot to be more reasonable than we thought on the multiday passages we have done up and down the coast. We have always been conservative ( perhaps bordering on paranoid) in running the engine periodically and keeping the batteries well fed.

I have heard similar comments to what you say Jon about the Hydrovane on larger vessels, but for every naysayer there seems to be someone who swears by them. I personally think that for larger vessels there seems to be no doubt about the superiority of servo-pendulum systems. We are however 35ft and centre cockpit, so the Hydrovane is kinda a neat(but expensive) fit.

Have had a look at the Fleming, they do make an auxillary rudder system, but seems to be on par pricewise with Hydrovane.
 
#29 ·
A few hours of battery charging on passage for the AP isn't going to break the bank.

As far as spares go...good to check ebay and the garage, boater sales type events. Never know what you'll find. Those spare's going to be worth gold up in de islands!

I did at one time have a tow generator, but got rid of it last year, 360 watts of solar and the wind generator are plenty. We rarely start the engine for battery charging purposes.
 
#32 ·
Some of the other reasons I dont like wind vanes:

Expensive.
Moving parts
Moving parts in the weather
Blocks swim platform
Often for sale on radio nets in cruisng areas. why?

Why I like auto pilots.
Reliability
Quick to set, change course, then forget.
Inexpensive
Few moving parts.
No moving parts in the weather.
Low amp draw. (half that of a fridge)
Never do I hear long range cruisers selling them to go to wind vane steering.
I hear very very few having problems.
Steers a course far better than I ever could.
 
#36 ·
We have a Raymarine below deck with CPT wheel pilot as back-up. The below deck uses much more power than the CPT so we switch back and forth as needed.

Only reason I want a windvane is the possibility of a back-up steering system if we have a rudder failure. I would have to remove our davits and a 210watt solar panel to do it....not sure if its worth the loss.
 
#37 ·
One of each, waiter. If you would be so kind.

I've only been offshore in other people's boats, never my own. Fair bit of coastal in our boat(s) but not offshore passage making. Coastal the AP just seems to make sense.

Long term, if we didn't already have a Hydrovane I'm not sure I'd get one but fitted with Tiller Pilot option it is nice to have a back up rudder. I am intent on moving our HV off centre to allow for platform. HV themselves say this will not effect performance.
 
#39 · (Edited)
My back up would be to hand steer and hove to when tired. On a long passage it wouldnt be fun... but it would be a bit character building.
If the question is 'why dont you have an automated back up" then I would say that its not necessary. If it was I would have a second Auto Pilot before I would have a wind vane steering system.

Make no mistake: If any or either unit, or anything else on your boat breaks down you need to be able to do the hard yards to get yourself into port. Sailing when the sh!t has hit the fan isnt easy nor fun but you and me have to be prepared to do it... the only other choices are to hit a red button and abandon the boat. Sailing manually might be tough but its a damn sight easier than rowing the boat the same distance :)

Mark
 
#40 ·
Wasn't worrying about the AP rather rudder failure.when prepping for many races or joining fleet sails need to demonstrate that you have a emergency rudder.? Do you carry one. Thanks
Surprisingly find even fin keel boats tract well enough if balanced to use brake and go below for short stints. Been trying to spec emergency rudder set. May be worth the extra bucks for a hydrovane
 
#43 ·
need to demonstrate that you have a emergency rudder.? Do you carry one. Thanks
. Been trying to spec emergency rudder set. May be worth the extra bucks for a hydrovane
$3k for a spare rudder? Thats 6 EPIRBS; a full solar setup; or a few months cruising kitty; a years alcohol supply etc.

My 'spare' rudder is a drogue that I can winch either side of the boat to slightly change course.
With the very few boats that lose their rudder, it must be 1% of those that lose their self steering you are beginning to ponder infinitesimally small possibilities.

Just go cruising for a year or so and after that if you think you need it/one etc then pull into some port and order one in. :)

If I listened to everyone who said: "You can not go to sea without XXX" I would still be at home. I would never have left, nor would I still be able to afford all the junk 5 years later.

So whilst its good to run thoughts, numbers, lists remember it may stop your dreams in their tracks.

Mark
 
#41 · (Edited)
Wasn't worrying about the AP rather rudder failure.when prepping for many races or joining fleet sails need to demonstrate that you have a emergency rudder.? Do you carry one. Thanks
Surprisingly find even fin keel boats track well enough if balanced to use brake and go below for short stints. Been trying to spec emergency rudder set up. May be worth the extra bucks for a hydrovane
 
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