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Do you believe in miracles???

8K views 57 replies 27 participants last post by  Minnewaska 
#1 ·
Oracle is about to pull even, 8 to 8, in the Cup. Lazarus wasn't as dead as oracle was, what a comeback.

Barring breakdown, one race for all the marbles tomorrow.


WOWWWWW
 
#4 ·
My thoughts exactly; kinda like "the fight of the century" that ends halfway through the first round. Way too much money invested to lose 5 days of TV coverage.
I guess we'll see tomorrow!
 
#6 ·
Oracle 10 wins, 7 of those in a row. Kiwis 8 wins.

After NZ took the start and was ahead through the 2nd gate I thought it was over. In practically every other race, NZ either stayed even or gained on the 3rd leg. And then about 1/3 the way through, Oracle passes them and soon leaves them in their dust.

You have to be wondering what was going through the crew's mind on ETNZ when that happened.
 
#43 ·
Oracle 10 wins, 7 of those in a row. Kiwis 8 wins.

After NZ took the start and was ahead through the 2nd gate I thought it was over. In practically every other race, NZ either stayed even or gained on the 3rd leg. And then about 1/3 the way through, Oracle passes them and soon leaves them in their dust.

You have to be wondering what was going through the crew's mind on ETNZ when that happened.
bugger comes to mind;)
 
#7 ·
Seems when conditions are even, both boats in clear air Oracle is often 2-3 knots faster.. they also spend a lot more time on the foils upwind, by the look of it. That's a hard combo to beat.

USA brimming with confidence now. It's hard to imagine yet another reversal of fortunes... (sigh)
 
#14 ·
To my eye, it looks like Oracle is doing everything just a bit smoother. They're tacking and gybing smoother and sharper (with a very few exceptions), probably giving them a second or two on each maneuver. But also, in the past few races they've looked MUCH smoother than ENTZ in a straight line; they get on their foils nice and quick and smooth, and look rock solid as they foil across the bay. In contrast, the Kiwis seem to do a lot more pitching and bobbing while getting up on their foils, and don't look quite as smooth and steady once they get there.

I wouldn't want to bet against Oracle at this point. They really seem to have everything dialed in. Of course, if either team makes a big enough mistake (or even just hits a seal or a big enough fish with one of them spindly rudders) in the next race.....
 
#17 ·
Incredible comeback. While Oracle's cheating scandal puts a shadow over their success, it sure appears to be legit. No way Barker is a good enough actor to look that distraught after the second race yesterday. Am I right that Barker didn't give a post race interview after the second race yesterday? I saw Spithill.

They haven't thrown anything, just for additional days of TV coverage. ETNZ has been beat on every front for days: tactics, boat handling and discipline (ie all the penalties they've received) and it seems they may actually have the slower boat now.
 
#20 ·
Tomorrow marks the 30th anniversary of Australia II coming back from a 3-1 deficit to win 3 in a row and take the Cup away from the US, who held it for 132 years, since it's inception.

One marine forecast for the Bay says Small Craft Advisory in effect from 11 am PDT this morning through this evening with NW winds 10 to 20 kt...increasing to 15 to 25 kt this afternoon. If that's right, they might not sail today. And that could mean this Cup will be decided 30 years to the day from the last greatest comeback in Cup history.
 
#24 ·
If that's right, they might not sail today. And that could mean this Cup will be decided 30 years to the day from the last greatest comeback in Cup history.
No it won't. Tomorrow is the first day of the Rolex Big Boat Series, a 4-day regatta with hundreds of entries racing on multiple courses, several of which overlap the AC course. If the AC is not decided today, it will have to wait a week.
 
#22 ·
I posted this in the General Discussion section for a reason, to get more people's attention to what may be one of the biggest comebacks ever in sport, let alone in sailing.

But it got bumped here. Bummer, even though I like all you Racing forum types...
 
#23 ·
Average Winning Margin

Oracle: 10 races 402 seconds total, 40.2 sec avg.

Team New Zealand: 8 race, 324 seconds total, 40.5 sec avg.

Seems to be a pretty even match between the boats (Crew/performance/tactics), based purely on the average winning margin.

Part of me wants to see Oracle take and complete one of the greatest comebacks in sports history and part of me wants to see the Kiwi's win it to possibly return to more "traditional" boats and rules.

What would be cool today is that these guys are hitting mark 4 at the same time and it becomes a dogfight tactical sprint to the line.

It has been exciting.
 
#31 ·
Whatever Oracle did to their boat last week (or whatever ETNZ Voodoo doll they stuck pins into), it sure as hell worked.

Yippee!! The next AC defense will be in SF!! Couldn't ask for a prettier backdrop.
 
#41 ·
Next time the course should be: a beat out to the Light Bucket - run to Alcatraz - reach to the finish off of The Embarcadero (and no pu$$y wind limits). The AC72s were pretty cool, but let's see some boats that can take real SF Bay conditions, and races that aren't won or lost on a single error.
 
#49 ·
Amazing On all fronts! From the materials the boats and sails are made of, to the engineering, designers and engineers who created these machines, to the technology used to televise it, to the venue, to the capabilities of the crews, to the capabilities of the "boats", to the vision of the winning owner, to the unbelievable outcome!!! WOW! WOW! WOW!

When can I buy a mast with a hinge to make it possible for my wing sail to lay flat, out of the wind when my boat is on its mooring? The future of sailing has changed!! What we all witnessed this past couple of weeks was "impossible" within recent memory. I have to wonder what the "magicians" are working on today!

Down
 
#51 ·
Do I believe in Miracles? No I don't.

But what exactly did happen to turn Oracle's fortunes around seemingly overnight? Was it that the whole crew suddenly had an epiphany and figured out how to make the boat so stable on it's foils? I doubt it! More likely they had a bit of help. Exactly what that help was, and whether it was within the rules, we will probably never know.

This article is clipped from Sail-World.com:
The following notes are circulating in Auckland media circles, as an explanation for Oracle Team USA's improved foiling performance, as time progressed in the 34th America's Cup.

The notes were dated September 23, 2013, but were received by Sail-World mid-morning September 26, after the regatta had finished. But the device was first highlighted by the Television NZ commentary team during their coverage of the vital Race 19, of the 34th America's Cup. Click here for the full race coverage and NZ commentary including comment on the Oracle Team USA foiling performance.

This afternoon, Tim Smythe, principal of Core Composite Builders, Oracle Team USA's Warkworth (NZ) based building facility, said that the team used the same set of foils through the regatta and that the 'special foil adjuster system, was there before the regatta started'.

Click here for the TV3 report and interview with Tim Symthe.

The matter was taken by Emirates Team NZ to the International Jury on September 3, and a Decision issued on September 6, just one day before the regatta started. It was rejected on the basis on being filed outside the allowable time, but added a rider, that had it been issued inside the time limit, but on the basis of what had been heard, the application would have been unlikely to have been upheld.

Emirates Team NZ's Ray Davies said 'their boat is rock steady up wind, that takes us a lot of effort, and we have been trying to it for a long, long time, and yet they master it in just a few days.

It is well recognised that Oracle was having serious foiling stability difficulties at the outset of the regatta and that their performance could not match that of ETNZ.

Half way through the series it was acknowledged that Oracle had fitted an automatic control to their hydrofoil trim, and that this modification was approved by the measurement authorities.

Since this modification Oracle's performance has almost unbelievably improved. This has been 'explained' by skipper Jimmy Spithill as being due to the superhuman efforts of the crew to improve their handling skills. However, in view of the intensive training Oracle were able to do, prior to the regatta, with their highly skilled team partner, it seems unlikely that only now have they discovered the 'magic bullet' they they clearly have. It is much more likely to be the result of the modifications, possibly enabled by their surprising decision to use their lay day card and the subsequent lucky postponements.

It must be remembered that this is the first time that this contest has been sailed by yachts 'flying ' on Hydrofoils and it is probable that new and different criteria should have been applied.

In the aeronautical world it has long been known that the stability of swept wing aircraft can rapidly be lost by uncontrolled yaw leading to a dangerous situation known as 'Dutch Roll'.

A device known as 'Little Herbie' was developed during the commissioning of the Boeing 747 Jumbo Jets over 40 years ago, to over come this tendency. Little Herbies, or 'Stability Augmentation Systems' (SAS) as these are now designated, are equipped with sensors such as Accelerometers and Gyros which can detect and instigate corrections to stability with a speed and accuracy which exceeds the ability of even experienced airline pilots. They are therefore now installed in virtually all swept-wing aircraft.

The 'legality' of this device has been justified and accepted on the basis that it does not actually 'drive' the trim of the foils.....this is still performed by the muscle power of the crew, via hydraulic linkages. That may be so, but the device, using its sensing and directives, has been described as 'automatic'. This implies that the trim of the foils is determined by what can only be described as 'superhuman' technology. If this technology has been used to overcome the foiling stability difficulties of Oracle it will have enabled the use of higher speed/lower drag foils which the crew would otherwise be unable to manage. This would give a significant speed advantage during foiling. This has been clearly in evidence since the modification. Improvement in stability and speed has been staggering.

The high speed/low drag foils do have a downside in light conditions where, due to their lesser lifting characteristic, foiling is difficult or impossible. This was also clearly seen in the abandoned Race 13 when ETNZ were only 4 minutes from the finish, with a lead of over 1000metres.

Oracle Team USA have not provided any official comment on the system they used.

While it would seem that the actuator device is legal, if it is attached directly to its own power supply, the wider question remains as to whether a boat should be raced with a computer, rather than a human, driving a primary control function.

The Racing Rules on the matter are very clear RRS42 Propulsion states: A yacht shall compete only by using the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the wing, sails, rudders, daggerboards and hulls, and perform other acts of seamanship.

The vital words are at the opening of the second sentence 'her crew' - meaning that an automated adjustment which works independently of crew intervention is illegal.

Then BMW Oracle Racing did have very sophisticated on-board systems in 2010 in the Deed of Gift Match, which amongst other things they were able to overlay a line image of the optimum wingsail shape against the actual image, enabling the crew to make the adjustment required to get the two shapes into alignment, and achieve the ultimate performance.

That is one step away from having the wingsail shape adjusted by a computer independent of the crew which under RRS42 is illegal. Even under the current America's Cup rules such a system is quite legal, and it is hard not to believe that such systems were not used again in the 2013 America's Cup. The key point being that there must be a crew intervention between the computer and the sail or other control named in RRS42.

Of course computers are not infallible, and any intelligent computer system requires a lot of tweaking and refinement to be operate consistently and at a refined level. It all takes time - and time is the most vital commodity in the America's Cup.

The time for application to the International Jury over such a matter, is long gone. The rules require that a competitor protests or lodges an application to the Jury as soon as they are aware of a measurement issue, not later or at the end of a regatta.

by Richard Gladwell
 
#53 ·
Do I believe in Miracles? No I don't.

But what exactly did happen to turn Oracle's fortunes around seemingly overnight? Was it that the whole crew suddenly had an epiphany and figured out how to make the boat so stable on it's foils? I doubt it! More likely they had a bit of help. Exactly what that help was, and whether it was within the rules, we will probably never know.
Well, the skipper and strategist (both Aussies, BTW) are both highly-regarded Olympic-class yachtsmen used to from-behind comebacks. eg. Tom Slingsby is the reigning world champion and olympic gold medalist in the Laser class and the best caller of wind-shifts I've ever heard anyone speak of.

..but maybe it was kicking the Americans off the boat? ;) :p :D
 
#54 ·
We all know both boats were loaded with elite sailors. That doesn't account for the very sudden change in Oracle's performance. The boat went from unsteady on it's foils to rock solid foiling on every point of sail almost over night. That has nothing to do with the afterguard, and I doubt it has to do with some extra practice hours, and a "superhuman effort to improve boathandling" as Oracle would have us believe.

Maybe it was an 11th hour "eureka moment" by the engineers coming up with the magic formula for stable flight. Maybe it is all perfectly innocent and fully within the rules. Unfortunately Team Oracle has a history of blatant cheating, combined with the fact that they have refused to comment about their foil control system at all, could lead one to believe that they have something to hide.
 
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