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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
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Thread: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-28-2013 05:34 PM
brianb00
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

With recent rule changes, in fleet racing, not match racing, rubbing has become almost impossible as the committees I have dealt with will just toss both boats, one for not giving rights, and the other for rubbing hulls. In larger vessels I understand the reasoning, however it is now near impossible to prove a point on a crowded start line without contact as the windward boat always claims they gave way. One trick I have used is to strike the other boats hull with my fist to make a loud bang so it is obvious that we were so close that crew in normal position could touch the other boat. It is quite frustrating on a start line to get rolled by someone claiming they gave way when they didn't make any effort to head up.
09-28-2013 10:21 AM
jephotog
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

I agree at most levels the participants are trying to win but not willing to play bumper boats to make that happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
In the AC, it's winner takes all and the boat is semi-disposable. If they won and it cost them the boat, they would be happy to pay that vig.
Also agreed. I think at this level or when the crew is professional the only object is to win. Plus it's not their boat or money involved and Larry E has a fleet of attorneys is my guess. Any serious boat collision would have favored Oracle as they had two nearly identical boats and crews, the Team NZ backup boat was not as evolved and would have given a serious boost to Oracles chances of winning but there is no way they are 8 races down, might of well stop watching the Cup.
09-28-2013 09:39 AM
Minnewaska
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
..... i can assure you hitting each other is something that everybody REALLY looks to avoid....
In the AC, it's winner takes all and the boat is semi-disposable. If they won and it cost them the boat, they would be happy to pay that vig.

Strategically, I get why Barker didn't tack away. If he had, he would have clearly ended up a few boat lengths back. For making contact and getting stuck in the irons, he simply had a penalty for the same. He was taking his chances on a pretty even bet. Spithill just out maneuvered him.
09-28-2013 09:35 AM
jephotog
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

I don't believe the rules of the road are much different when racing over “normal sailing” they are applied differently though. In the normal world the rules are there to keep traffic safe and hoped to be applied with a bit of common courtesy. While racing the rules of the road are used as a weapon and knowing them and using them to your advantage is almost as important as boat speed while competing, much like lawyers in a court battle, where some of these battles can end up. This is even more so in match racing where tactical battles are a major part of the competition. Except in rare occasions in fleet racing you wouldn’t sacrifice speed to tack and cover your opponent throughout race as this would cause you to lose time against the rest of the fleet.

The AC was unique in terms of instant protest followed by a quick decision by the judges. In the real world or at least my real world as far as racing is concerned. If a foul occurs and is protested it is up the boat that fouled to assess whether they fouled and take the penalty usually sailing a 360 or 720, or face being disqualified by the race committee after 2 hours of backroom litigation after the race. In an offshore race earlier this summer my boat’s (the one I race on) neighbor who rarely races had a fine race from Mission Bay to Oceanside and would have come in 2nd if not for the foul at the one pin to round. After 2 hours of race committee back room arguments in front of the protest committee was disqualified, after 7 hours of racing. He said next time he’ll just do a 360.

While a boat just sailing would not consider themselves the stand-on boat while passing until well clear of the other boat. While racing the moment the leward boat gets an overlap they are now using this advantage to try to control the other boat, as happened in this incident. As I remember this incident the kiwi skipper pointed up to avoid but anticipating Oracles move to return back on course and wanting to follow turned the wheel back to the left for a moment. I believe if the Kiwis had cranked the wheel hard right to avoid and still hit it would have been a penalty on Oracle for not giving room to maneuver.

15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY

When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.

I remember at least once when Oracle protested and the commentators were wondering why the Kiwis weren’t as they felt the Kiwis had a better case as result of the incident.
09-28-2013 09:18 AM
tommays
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's









Having raced a LOT for a LONG time i can assure you hitting each other is something that everybody REALLY looks to avoid

It is just stupid and at the end of the day your going to have to deal with and insurance company
09-28-2013 03:33 AM
brianb00
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
My favorite part of that was BenA throwing up his arms yelling "Hey, we're trying to tack here!"

Tack? Back to the starting line? Nice.

I thought it was NZL saying, "were trying to tack (to give USA room as required)". NZL had moved their main to port tack and pulled the jib over as well, but were not falling off. While they seemed to move the sail DB seemed to be steering the boat back toward starboard, something the judges would take note of.


NZL should have just rolled into a tack, either way they lost a couple boat lengths.
09-28-2013 01:19 AM
sailpower
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

I’m pretty sure that you won’t see the phrase “right of way” used anywhere in the rules of the road.
09-28-2013 01:02 AM
davidpm
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

I found this court case which I believe supports my claim.

Scuttlebutt News Center: Defining Liability Between Racing Yachts

Thus this court ignored the International Jury's findings, and turned to the COLREGS: Charles Jourdain was the overtaking yacht and obliged to keep clear, though the court found both yachts at fault (60% Charles Jourdain and 40% Endeavour).

The point here is that if the Colregs were the controlling law, the overtaking boat has to keep clear.
It is interesting that the windward boat was still assessed 40% not 0% which is very common as the court figures it takes two to tango and while the colregs say the overtaking boat has to keep clear the skipper of the stand-on vessel is obligated to not participate in a collision and he could have seen it coming and headed up apparently.

The case was appealed and the racing rules were finally used to adjudicate the collision and apparently the windward boat was assessed a much higher penalty.


So the lesson is that as cruisers we have to remember that the Americas Cup participants are following different rules from the ones we have to follow.
09-28-2013 12:46 AM
davidpm
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

Quote:
Originally Posted by overbored View Post
if you are overtaking and before the overlap you are the burdened boat, as soon as there is an overlap to leeward you are no longer the overtaking boat, you are now the leeward boat and have right a way
The way I read (a) is that the overtaking rules apply to sailboats too.
The way I read (d) is that even if you get an overlap you do not instantly switch to either crossing or leeward you were burdened as an overtaking boat and continue to be thus burdened until their is no longer any risk of collision ie. fully clear.

This is standard ColRegs though. Obviously racing rules are different.


RULE 13
Overtaking
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I
and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the
vessel being overtaken.
(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with
another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that
is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at
night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither
of her sidelights.
(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she if overtaking another,
she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not
make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these
Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until
she is finally past and clear.
09-27-2013 12:15 PM
chucklesR
Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

Overlap has a different meaning in racing.
Rules: Overlapped or Not | Sailing World

In real life I've consider myself to have stand-on rights (and obligations) until I see your stern.
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