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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > The Future of Boat Ownership
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Thread: The Future of Boat Ownership Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-02-2013 08:51 AM
zedboy
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

So here's my observation/question, Yam: the through-the-roof COL on the coasts has made home ownership impossible or elusive, and the assumption or anecdotal observation is that these millennials can only conceive of life in the big city.

But what about the flyover country? My friends on the coasts struggled and struggle into their 30s to make ends meet - I grew up in DC and have tons of friends who would love to buy but may never get there (and a bunch who only bought cause they caught the 2008 dip in the market). But I went to college in Pittsburgh, and my few friends who stayed there bought right after graduation, for 1/3 the cost of the coast. And there are plenty of cities that are even cheaper.

Does the economic or social pull of the coasts mean no one can consider going where they can afford to live? Some things don't change - the $20k sedan isn't cheaper in Ohio than NJ, nor is a fridge. But buying a house for $150k (or $80k, or less...) makes a big difference compared to $450k, even if you're only making $60-80k instead of $125-150k...

(Don't get me started on how anyone in your/our silly country is supposed to afford health care, I've lived all of 1 year in the States since I turned 21...)
10-02-2013 03:44 AM
bljones
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamsailor View Post
If we can't assume that I will ask one of the Administrators to remove this post.
Y'know, i was right there with you until you scrawled this line.

Sorry, "Don't make me pull this car over!" wasn't effective when i was a kid, it is even less effective now.

Hey tdw, remove this post- the OP doesn't like discussion that doesn't fit his paradigms, so kill it.

In fact, let's do that to all of the posts that stray from the OP's focus... and then we can all post to the 4 threads remaining.
10-01-2013 09:23 PM
unimacs
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

Again I haven't read the book but I was curious enough to look at some in depth reviews of it and an interview with the author. It's hard to have a deep discussion about it without getting into the politics but I will try and I will apologize ahead of time for the long post.

Though not a millennial, I apparently share the values the author talks about. I was born in 64 and my father was a Marine in the Pacific during WWII. I'm at the very tail end of the baby boom. My home town had less than 1,000 people, we lived in a modest house on a lake. Most structures on the lake at the time were cabins. By the time I finished high school, the vast majority of the cabins were replaced by large year round homes and the "town" was now a small suburb with a population of 8,000. Today there are about 25,000 people living there.

The modest home I grew up in is at the end of a long line of McMansions. There is no way I could afford to buy property anywhere near there though my income adjusted for inflation is a fair bit more than what my parents made.

After living in a different suburb for about 10 years after I graduated from college, I moved to a city because my wife and I spent a lot of our time there anyway. There were quite a few new young families in our neighborhood that came from small towns and suburbs. I suppose we represent the beginnings of a reverse white flight.

I belong to a sailing club that doesn't have room for all the people that want to join. We share a building with a more traditional sailing yacht club that's trying to figure out how to deal with its declining membership. Our sailing club has people of all ages and many of them are new to sailing which is hopeful.

To me there are regional realities that are going to have a huge impact regardless of what millennials want. Membership in our sailing club is fairly inexpensive for two reasons. The first is that the club can tap into a large supply of used boats. The second is that moorings in Minneapolis are relatively cheap. They are cheap because gas powered motor boats aren't allowed on Minneapolis lakes without a special permit. This is a situation that obviously isn't going to exist everywhere.
10-01-2013 08:13 PM
Yamsailor
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
Sorry yam

Good luck with your premise. My this place be your sailing respite. I'll stay off it.
No worries Sal. Feel free to contribute as much as you like.

10-01-2013 08:04 PM
Sal Paradise
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

Sorry yam

Good luck with your premise. My this place be your sailing respite. I'll stay off it.
10-01-2013 06:55 PM
Yamsailor
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

OK Guys,

I really don't want this discussion to be political. I appreciate what is going on especially since I am one of the non-essential employees who is currently on furlough. Sailing for me is a respite from all this BS so, let's get back to the original topic I brought up---The Future of Sailing with the a premise that individual sailing participation has absolutely nothing to do with Government Budget Issues. If we can't assume that I will ask one of the Administrators to remove this post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
Ahhh, hello teaparty..dWhat if you did think for yourself? I don't know. If the Kochs tell you something, and you believe it, does it matter if it's is cause and effect? The result is the same. You guys shut NOAA down! Good job.


History tells us that some things were different during the great depression and what they did. You deny that it worked, you are fooling yourself. History tells us what we did prior to the great recession. You deny that it failed, you fool yourself. Fool me twice.....

If history won't serve your argument,there is always rage, diversion and the anonymous example of a FOAF who became a millionaire waterproofing basements...
10-01-2013 06:43 PM
Sal Paradise
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Not to get political? Fail!

So government sucking up all of the extra income in taxes and redistributing it will save us?

And, you think normal tax payers only think that is crazy because the Koch brothers tell us to think that?

What if we think for ourselves and think Keynesian economics are BS?
Ahhh, hello teaparty..dWhat if you did think for yourself? I don't know. If the Kochs tell you something, and you believe it, does it matter if it's is cause and effect? The result is the same. You guys shut NOAA down! Good job.


History tells us that some things were different during the great depression and what they did. You deny that it worked, you are fooling yourself. History tells us what we did prior to the great recession. You deny that it failed, you fool yourself. Fool me twice.....

If history won't serve your argument,there is always rage, diversion and the anonymous example of a FOAF who became a millionaire waterproofing basements...
10-01-2013 01:55 PM
Group9
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
Yam
My grandparents, although very successful people both financially and socially, never owned a house. They were afraid to spend their savings having lived through the great depression and they lived in Brooklyn - near the water. They did spend money on boats and boatyards however and with no lawn to mow and no roof to patch they were free to take all of us grandkids sailing.

As an architect I try and study housing trends. The concept that the suburbs would stagnate while core areas would revive has been around for quite a while now. I myself built a house on an infill lot in a village. Its adjacent to a metro North main line into NYC, and on the river. And certainly the great recession has greatly affected the current generation of young adults spending habits and plans. I do think it remains to be seen from a market perspective just how this manifests itself. I think you can argue that the NYC, Boston, DC area will attract and retain young educated people and that may be the geographic core while places like Detroit, Phoenix and the midwest slowly die off.

Perhaps this generation will echo their great grandparents. With less real estate to take care of they will be open to owning a boat. Or maybe they will be so crippled by debt and unemployment that they see boat ownership as unrealistic. I think the answer to which of those futures is ahead lies in political and policy decision in Washington D.C.

Without getting overtly political, the policies of the U.S. during the time of my grandparents generation were certainly much different than today's. Tax rates were much higher, as was employment and growth. So the incentive to spend was there for investors and employees enjoyed the freedom to quit their job and pick up a better paying job anytime. Contrast that to today - lower tax rates, austerity,gov. shut down, government layoff, sequester, insecurity and people clinging to any job to survive. I don't see growth policy like my grandparents generation saw. The specter of mass unemployment or underemployment will loom large over this generation for decades to come. The question of housing policy and economic policy seemed to be stymied by radical groups such as the Koch Bros Tea Party.
Not to get political? Fail!

So government sucking up all of the extra income in taxes and redistributing it will save us?

And, you think normal tax payers only think that is crazy because the Koch brothers tell us to think that?

What if we think for ourselves and think Keynesian economics are BS?

You really think the 20 somethings of today are going to thank us for this huge debt we have run up for them to pay?

I think we're lucky they haven't really thought about it too much, yet.
10-01-2013 08:21 AM
Yamsailor
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

Sal,

You bring up some very good points and a new perspective worth exploring.

I hope you are right!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
Yam
My grandparents, although very successful people both financially and socially, never owned a house. They were afraid to spend their savings having lived through the great depression and they lived in Brooklyn - near the water. They did spend money on boats and boatyards however and with no lawn to mow and no roof to patch they were free to take all of us grandkids sailing.

As an architect I try and study housing trends. The concept that the suburbs would stagnate while core areas would revive has been around for quite a while now. I myself built a house on an infill lot in a village. Its adjacent to a metro North main line into NYC, and on the river. And certainly the great recession has greatly affected the current generation of young adults spending habits and plans. I do think it remains to be seen from a market perspective just how this manifests itself. I think you can argue that the NYC, Boston, DC area will attract and retain young educated people and that may be the geographic core while places like Detroit, Phoenix and the midwest slowly die off.

Perhaps this generation will echo their great grandparents. With less real estate to take care of they will be open to owning a boat. Or maybe they will be so crippled by debt and unemployment that they see boat ownership as unrealistic. I think the answer to which of those futures is ahead lies in political and policy decision in Washington D.C.

Without getting overtly political, the policies of the U.S. during the time of my grandparents generation were certainly much different than today's. Tax rates were much higher, as was employment and growth. So the incentive to spend was there for investors and employees enjoyed the freedom to quit their job and pick up a better paying job anytime. Contrast that to today - lower tax rates, austerity,gov. shut down, government layoff, sequester, insecurity and people clinging to any job to survive. I don't see growth policy like my grandparents generation saw. The specter of mass unemployment or underemployment will loom large over this generation for decades to come. The question of housing policy and economic policy seemed to be stymied by radical groups such as the Koch Bros Tea Party.
10-01-2013 07:03 AM
Sal Paradise
Re: The Future of Boat Ownership

Yam
My grandparents, although very successful people both financially and socially, never owned a house. They were afraid to spend their savings having lived through the great depression and they lived in Brooklyn - near the water. They did spend money on boats and boatyards however and with no lawn to mow and no roof to patch they were free to take all of us grandkids sailing.

As an architect I try and study housing trends. The concept that the suburbs would stagnate while core areas would revive has been around for quite a while now. I myself built a house on an infill lot in a village. Its adjacent to a metro North main line into NYC, and on the river. And certainly the great recession has greatly affected the current generation of young adults spending habits and plans. I do think it remains to be seen from a market perspective just how this manifests itself. I think you can argue that the NYC, Boston, DC area will attract and retain young educated people and that may be the geographic core while places like Detroit, Phoenix and the midwest slowly die off.

Perhaps this generation will echo their great grandparents. With less real estate to take care of they will be open to owning a boat. Or maybe they will be so crippled by debt and unemployment that they see boat ownership as unrealistic. I think the answer to which of those futures is ahead lies in political and policy decision in Washington D.C.

Without getting overtly political, the policies of the U.S. during the time of my grandparents generation were certainly much different than today's. Tax rates were much higher, as was employment and growth. So the incentive to spend was there for investors and employees enjoyed the freedom to quit their job and pick up a better paying job anytime. Contrast that to today - lower tax rates, austerity,gov. shut down, government layoff, sequester, insecurity and people clinging to any job to survive. I don't see growth policy like my grandparents generation saw. The specter of mass unemployment or underemployment will loom large over this generation for decades to come. The question of housing policy and economic policy seemed to be stymied by radical groups such as the Koch Bros Tea Party.
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