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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Got to Stop being Stupid
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Thread: Got to Stop being Stupid Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-30-2013 04:13 PM
smurphny
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I'm not sure what part of the East coast your talking about, where "wind and heading keep changing"... :-)

The pic I posted was taken during a sail out around Canaveral on a shot from Mayport to Palm Beach behind the passage of a strong front at the end of January... (the overnight temps in Palm Beach that night dipped below freezing)

The breeze never wavered much from the NNW throughout the trip, and my course only changed once upon passing Canaveral, perhaps a 25 degree change to starboard which was probably closely matched by the breeze moving more to the N once south of the Cape...

I can't imagine what other "options" would have served me better than my headsails after the passage of the front, and the wind started blowing @ 30+... My main would have had my vane struggling, and as I was singlehanded, reducing the threat of an accidental jibe was paramount for me... I've rigged my running backs so that they clear the boom and double-reefed main, so I can leave both of them on when double-reefed, but on many boats that's not the case, and an accidental jibe with the backstay on and unattended can be disastrous...

If you're not able to furl a headsail sailing downwind without using the blanketing effect of the main, something is wrong... Most likely, you've gotten caught with your pants down, so to speak, and have waited too long to furl it in conjunction with the building wind strength, to begin with...

Here's another example of the difficulty of sailing deep before the wind with a lot of main up... This is my friend Glenn at the helm of a Trintella 50 we were running to the islands, taken in the Stream off Hatteras... The Trintella has a massive main, and a relatively small self-tacking jib which is pretty ineffective DDW... We were rigged for speed, trying to get across the Stream before nightfall and the breeze began to move to the N-NE, so were overpowered with as much main up as we dared for the time being...

The Trintella has deeply swept-back spreaders, which can be a huge liability in such conditions... Steering that boat in those conditions took a lot of effort, 2 hours at the wheel was a real workout, and the autopilot wouldn't come close to handling the conditions consistently, or averting round-ups or screaming broaches... Had I been singlehanding or having to rely on self-steering alone, there really would have been no alternative to run under headsail alone, or so deeply reef the main that the boat would be for all intents and purposes, running under bare poles...


Yes, you were on a long run and far enough out where the wind wasn't veering around from land effects. I meant inshore such as the op was describing, where you need to change headings and wind can funnel around all kinds of things.
Would like to see how you placed your runners in order to allow use of the boom. Mine will get hit in a jibe so I wouldn't dare use the main on the boom with the runners on. The boom will be tied down any time I decide to use storm sails. I have a trysail (loose-footed) which would be up in any condition where I had to set the storm jib.
As far as roller furling goes, most of them need to be almost unstressed to work right. With luff sag caused by tension on the sail, you're trying to roll up along a curved surface as well as against any pull at right angles to the luff. I can roll in easily only when damn near close to luffing.
09-30-2013 12:34 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
feels great to have a storm jib to go down to now! Yay for derelicts!
Hmmm, if you did indeed score that jib off a true derelict, you might want to think about washing it, first...

Just sayin'... :-)


09-30-2013 12:32 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by T37Chef View Post
I'm more curious about that bird in your photo Jon Almost looks Photoshoped
Well, I don't do Photoshop - but if I did, I would have placed it a bit further off to the right of the frame :-)
09-30-2013 12:16 PM
Harborless
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

I think its hard to say how sails up would have affected me that day out. I mean I understand the boat is designed for sailing. Without sails up the boat didnt know its ass from its elbow once the mast got to swining around, i was basically like a pendulum. However I still think with my 110 jib ida been in trouble with my headings.
Now that I have a storm jib I would definently go out with reefed main and storm hanked if I ever met the same conditions and would not worry about being overppowered by the wind.
feels great to have a storm jib to go down to now! Yay for derelicts!
09-30-2013 12:08 PM
T37Chef
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

I'm more curious about that bird in your photo Jon Almost looks Photoshoped
09-30-2013 12:04 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Many long distance cruisers use two sails forward of the mast and pole both out, making a wing and wing configuration without a mainsail at all. That makes a lot of sense for a 1000 mile trade winds voyage as long as weather systems are not an issue and steady winds are almost a given. Setting up that kind of gear in changing conditions such as you get on the East Coast is really not possible where wind and heading keep changing. You need more options than just a headsail. I worry about getting a headsail in if the wind pipes up and no main is there to head up enough to get the pressure off the jib/genny. Just letting the sheets fly and headsail luff wildly to try and roll it up is not a great situation. I think for normal coastal sailing that the majority of the time one should follow the old rule of sailing 101: main up first, down last.
Well, I'm not sure what part of the East coast your talking about, where "wind and heading keep changing"... :-)

The pic I posted was taken during a sail out around Canaveral on a shot from Mayport to Palm Beach behind the passage of a strong front at the end of January... (the overnight temps in Palm Beach that night dipped below freezing)

The breeze never wavered much from the NNW throughout the trip, and my course only changed once upon passing Canaveral, perhaps a 25 degree change to starboard which was probably closely matched by the breeze moving more to the N once south of the Cape...

I can't imagine what other "options" would have served me better than my headsails after the passage of the front, and the wind started blowing @ 30+... My main would have had my vane struggling, and as I was singlehanded, reducing the threat of an accidental jibe was paramount for me... I've rigged my running backs so that they clear the boom and double-reefed main, so I can leave both of them on when double-reefed, but on many boats that's not the case, and an accidental jibe with the backstay on and unattended can be disastrous...

If you're not able to furl a headsail sailing downwind without using the blanketing effect of the main, something is wrong... Most likely, you've gotten caught with your pants down, so to speak, and have waited too long to furl it in conjunction with the building wind strength, to begin with...

Here's another example of the difficulty of sailing deep before the wind with a lot of main up... This is my friend Glenn at the helm of a Trintella 50 we were running to the islands, taken in the Stream off Hatteras... The Trintella has a massive main, and a relatively small self-tacking jib which is pretty ineffective DDW... We were rigged for speed, trying to get across the Stream before nightfall and the breeze began to move to the N-NE, so were overpowered with as much main up as we dared for the time being...

The Trintella has deeply swept-back spreaders, which can be a huge liability in such conditions... Steering that boat in those conditions took a lot of effort, 2 hours at the wheel was a real workout, and the autopilot wouldn't come close to handling the conditions consistently, or averting round-ups or screaming broaches... Had I been singlehanding or having to rely on self-steering alone, there really would have been no alternative to run under headsail alone, or so deeply reef the main that the boat would be for all intents and purposes, running under bare poles...


09-30-2013 11:22 AM
Sal Paradise
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Hey Harborless.

I use this map frequently.

NOAASurfaceMap

I just check it during the week, measure it against sailflow and other wind prediction sites. You can see I am in a misery of calm. Good weather to hike or ride my motorcycle. Anything but sail.


Others will probably have better stuff, but i use this and its free. Gives you some idea whats happening and you combine with other info to get an overall picture.
09-30-2013 10:36 AM
smurphny
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Many long distance cruisers use two sails forward of the mast and pole both out, making a wing and wing configuration without a mainsail at all. That makes a lot of sense for a 1000 mile trade winds voyage as long as weather systems are not an issue and steady winds are almost a given. Setting up that kind of gear in changing conditions such as you get on the East Coast is really not possible where wind and heading keep changing. You need more options than just a headsail. I worry about getting a headsail in if the wind pipes up and no main is there to head up enough to get the pressure off the jib/genny. Just letting the sheets fly and headsail luff wildly to try and roll it up is not a great situation. I think for normal coastal sailing that the majority of the time one should follow the old rule of sailing 101: main up first, down last.
09-30-2013 09:58 AM
TakeFive
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I don't know, every boat I've ever sailed deep downwind in heavier breezes much prefers being 'pulled' along by a headsail forward of the boat's CLR/'pivot point', than while being 'pushed' by a mainsail and CE aft of the CLR, thus encouraging weather helm... In the sort of situation Take Five describes, that's an instance where lee helm is actually desirable, it will help keep the boat on track downwind in boisterous conditions, greatly easing the amount of steering input required by a helmsperson or autopilot/vane... Other advantages of dumping the main include eliminating the dangerous potential of an accidental jibe, and the extreme wear and tear on the main from being plastered against the spreaders and shrouds... There's a pretty good reason why running under headsails alone is a common approach taken by many voyagers on lengthy tradewind passages being sailed at or close to DDW...

In the sort of situation pictured here, my boat will be FAR more controllable and content being pulled along by her staysail alone, than she would be while being driven under a deeply reefed main, or storm trysail, which would situate the CE aft of the CLR...

BTW, what is this "tail wagging" technique of which you speak? :-)
That's what I've been trying to say. Nice to see that one of our "braintrust" actually agrees with me on something.
09-30-2013 09:46 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Let me clarify. I am not against sailing on jib alone. I do it in controlled conditions. I in fact did it today in 12 knot winds and benign conditions.

Running downwind in the conditions you describe I think there is an easier, less stressful on the boat, safer way to sail it.

Buy a preventer/ vang. It keeps to boom from swinging uncontrollably. Reduce sail area. Keep the center of motion to the mast middle of the boat than forward. Keep the center lower by use of a reefed main. Maybe try the tail wagging technique I have used

I have seen a boat get pulled by a full jib burying into the wave before it or in a trough, seen the sail fill with water a further pull the bow down . You yourself said you could barely control it or 90 minutes. That should be the clue your technique my not have worked as well as another. The conditions you were in were not that overboard to have stressed you.
I don't know, every boat I've ever sailed deep downwind in heavier breezes much prefers being 'pulled' along by a headsail forward of the boat's CLR/'pivot point', than while being 'pushed' by a mainsail and CE aft of the CLR, thus encouraging weather helm... In the sort of situation Take Five describes, that's an instance where lee helm is actually desirable, it will help keep the boat on track downwind in boisterous conditions, greatly easing the amount of steering input required by a helmsperson or autopilot/vane... Other advantages of dumping the main include eliminating the dangerous potential of an accidental jibe, and the extreme wear and tear on the main from being plastered against the spreaders and shrouds... There's a pretty good reason why running under headsails alone is a common approach taken by many voyagers on lengthy tradewind passages being sailed at or close to DDW...

In the sort of situation pictured here, my boat will be FAR more controllable and content being pulled along by her staysail alone, than she would be while being driven under a deeply reefed main, or storm trysail, which would situate the CE aft of the CLR...

BTW, what is this "tail wagging" technique of which you speak? :-)


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