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I Think I Found The Right Boat

7K views 57 replies 23 participants last post by  pforeman98 
#1 ·
Well Ok, after looking at a half dozen boats here in Arizona I think I found one to make an offer on. It's an early 80's Catalina 27 that's in pretty nice shape hut needs some attention as I have OCD :eek: and since it doesn't come with a trailer I would rather just do everything now and be able to enjoy it for the next few years without haul outs or down time.

The owner tackled all the wiring, new lights, inside and out, new head, holding tank and plumbing, standing rigging, painted the mast and it has a hinge on it, new double reef main, half the lines are new and the bottom was sanded and painted with primer and put in the water in July. I don't really understand that but he said he wanted to get some sailing in after two years of "off and on" work on the boat while it was on the hard. Then he was going to pull it out next month and research which bottom paints to use...

The stuff the boat needs; new jib, both are trashed and I would just bite the bullet and invest in a roller furling as I'll be single handed a lot. Obviously the bottom needs to be taken care of properly. It has an old 7.5 hp Merc pull start outboard that is jury rigged with some crazy throttle attachment as the owner does not have it in the outboard well. Instead he added an outboard bracket to the stern and the motor is really down and far away while motoring. You couldn't operate it without the throttle attachment. I would like to trade in this motor for something with an electric start and remote controls.

The inside and outside are well cared for, the cushions are great and the wood looks like it was always oiled and cared for. It has two anchors, a brand new bimini, a very new SS barbeque and he was very proud of the fact the stove and all the outlets inside work :laugher It has a brand new radio and 4 speakers.

He replaced the keep bolts and painted the bilge up nicely and it has a new bilge pump hooked to a battery and a solar charger.

He removed the lifelines and stanchions which I don't really care for and it does not have a cover for the main, just a tarp :confused:

He's asking $9,000, but made it very clear he's open to offers and is willing to arrange to have it moved 90 miles to the lake near me. He has a trailer which he used during the rebuild and a big dually to tow it.

My plan is to have the shop at the lake I would slip it do the bottom paint, install the roller furling, order me a brand new jib, run all the lines to the cockpit which would require some additional blocks and one winch installed on the cabin top, replace the engine and wire it in as they have dozens for sale and trade there and lastly replace the life lines and stanchions and use backing plates which he does not have. I think I could be looking at $5,000 in immediate repairs and have a real nice Catalina 27.

Like I said, he kept saying make me an offer, what would you guys offer him and what do you think a real clean Catalina 27ft is worth all done up like this..?

Keep in mind, it's been posted for sale for 6 weeks and it's in a lake that may be the worst lake in the state to have a sailboat, no wind at all, he just lives a few miles away and that's why he picked that one.

Sorry for the long post and I didn't take any pictures in the excitement.
 
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#30 ·
Thanks Alex, I've looked at 7 boats now, it's been a really good process to go through all these boats and see good and bad. I think your price ranges are fair and who knows, this boat may be had for $6,500 or $7,000, but I don't think so especially after being list for 2 weeks. Maybe two months down the road...

The 27 I'm looking at tomorrow supposedly has over $20k in receipts with it that covers the last 5 years of the current boats ownership including a coast guard inspection from two months ago and a survey from a year ago when they first considered selling it. Supposedly all the sails are 12 months old, etc.

It's described as mint...I'm anxious to see it, tomorrow at 8:00 AM...
 
#31 · (Edited)
That Catalina 25 is 2,900 lbs displacement.

The Catalina 27 is 6,240 lbs displacement.

There is little comparison between them.

The 27 is the smallest big boat and the 25 is the biggest little boat.

The basic rule is that you buy boats by the pound.
The 27 is twice the boat the 25 is.
I've sailed for a season or two on both of them and they are both great.

A 25 with an outboard is a lot of fun.
A 27 with an outboard is going to be way under-powered.
With an inboard you have a big boat feel.

The 27 being a big boat with an inboard can have lots of extra systems that are great to have but have to be surveyed and maintained.
Hot water, 110 system were pretty common.
 
#34 ·
A 25 with an outboard is a lot of fun.
A 27 with an outboard is going to be way under-powered.
With an inboard you have a big boat feel.
Not necessarily. Before we bought our boat, we sailed our sailing co-ops C27s regularly. A Yamaha 9.9 outboard pushed them along quite nicely.
 
#32 ·
Catalina 25 is 4400lbs, not 2900 (maybe that is the 22?). 27 is 6900 lbs. The point is still completely valid.

25 is a great first boat because in the right wind it feels more like an agile small boat, but it is cruiseable. It's easy to figure out from the 25 if you are interested in more performance oriented or more cruiser oriented boats in the future.

The 25 is a very cheap boat to maintain. The systems are trivial: hand pump water, outboard, simple electrical with <10 circuits, and a transom hung rudder. The 27 has quite a bit more stuff which means more to spend money on and maintain.
 
#36 ·
If anyone still cares, lol...here's the update on the "mint" 27 ft Catalina I saw yesterday.

Mint maybe a strong word but It's exceptional. The owner was a boat freak, he had every do-dad from winch covers, to two bilge pumps and just about anything you could order from Catalina direct. Window shades for the inside, I could go on for ever about the $$$ in accessories you hardly see on boats and some stuff he had two of, one stored and one in use.

New diesel engine in 2005, 4 new deep cell batteries, complete bottom job in 2008, all new sails in 2010, new bimini tops in 2011 (there are two so the whole cockpit can be covered), all new lines/sheets, in 2012, everything cushion reupholstered in early 2013 for a grand total of $22k in slips presented in a nicely package in a book. Oh, did I say a custom made traveler above the hatch way and all new self-tailing winches....

The boat is $10,000 firm-

We took the boat out and sailed for three hours and my thoughts, the boat may be to big for me being a newbie and probably single handed sailing 85% of the time.

I need to give this serious thought and this experience may push me back to a Catalina 25, which feels way smaller and more manageable at least for now. I'm scared I could regret it and pine for the extra room and size if I ever find a lady friend, lol...
 
#37 · (Edited)
I need to give this serious thought and this experience may push me back to a Catalina 25, which feels way smaller and more manageable at least for now. I'm scared I could regret it and pine for the extra room and size if I ever find a lady friend, lol...
If you can afford it and it is a good as you say the size fear will go away in about a week.

So if you keep the boat for 5 years you are trading in one weeks discomfort for 259 weeks discomfort.
An I had a C25 for one summer and loved it.

There are many many reason why at c27 may not be the boat for you.
Being too big to single hand is not one of them.

Yes you will need a mate for the first dozen sails or so but you should probably have a helper for the 25 anyway.

The 27 you can stand up in.
That alone is worth a couple days discomfort until you get the hang of it.

I sailed a c30 single hand for a couple years then chartered a 34. Wow did that look big. By the second day it felt right. When I got back to the 30 it seemed tiny.

Like I said before.
The 25 is fun for overnight but the 27 you can go for a week.
In fact someone sailed around the world on a c27 that he significantly beefed up.

The potential value difference is significant.
If the po has 50k into a boat he wants 10k for compare that to standard issue 25 for 3k that you have to put 2k into to be usable and safe.

Of course the c27 will cost more for everything and if you can't do it you can't do it.
But don't pass because you are concerned about handling it.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Let me make a bold suggestion here.

People always make extraordinary claims about how many great boats are out there to be had for peanuts - $3000, $2000, free. FWIW, I think most of it is hogwash. Boats under $10000 almost always need a lot of work to get them into the kind of shape that someone can be really proud of (and confident in, since your life may depend on that boat). This is true of all brands, including Catalina. (It can be argued that this is especially true of Catalina, since there are so many that have been out there a very long time.)

If you've found a boat for $10,000 that's truly in great shape (as you've described with this boat), go get it and don't look back. You could spend a year finding a boat for a few thousand less, and end up having to pay another $5000 for unpleasant surprises.

Be realistic. This guy loves his boat. He's used his boat recently (as opposed to most boats that have sat neglected for several years before the owners got around to selling.) The fact that he was able to take you out in it right away means it is in sail away condition. Sail-away condition means you'll spend your first season sailing, instead of working on a boat endlessly before you have any joy.

Unless you REALLY think you want a significantly different boat (much smaller or much larger), you should go for it.

I can virtually guarantee you won't find a C30 in sail-away condition for $10,000 or less. When I was looking 4 years ago, I found some C30s on Craigslist for $15,000-$20,000, and they were all moldy wrecks. (Of course, their owners claimed they were in turnkey condition.)
 
#38 ·
What I find so ironic about this whole thread... nobody really has come out and said either boat is terrible. Testimony to Catalina knowing their market. The question has ONLY come down to which "market" is the OP... that is VERY telling about Catalina if nothing else.
 
#40 ·
Also, here is our take on big vs small. We sail both a 32' Bene 323 as well as our M25 on the lake. We love them both but we both feel the 32 is easier to sail, motor, dock etc. I can balance it much easier etc. The smaller boat takes more care. I am sometimes surprised that folks talk about bigger being harder, when our experience is so opposite. The most work I have had sailing has been on small dinks or other fast unstable boats. Of course with a big boat in a marina you can really do some serious damage when things turn crazy.

Now, I think you learn a great deal on the smaller boats, but that is maybe a different issue.

If I could have found a Cat27 in AK for 10K in great condition I would have broken the sound barrier writing the check. Good luck. I can say that our boat we bought this summer has been the best thing we have ever done.
 
#43 · (Edited)
/paranoia-on
I think the OP is really the guy selling the boat and he is trying a clever marketing trick.
/paranoia-off
"The Market for Sailboats in Arizona"
"Shopping for a Sailboat in Arizona"
Some sort of logic error inherent in both that makes them seem as ironic as " Let's go to Iowa for some fresh seafood".
BTW I used to often remind a friend that just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean very one WASN'T really out to get you.
 
#44 ·
You guys are funny...

We have some very large lakes put here, you can sail for 2 hrs in one direction on lake Pleasant before having to tack. One marina there has over 100 sailboats...all the way up to a 36' Hunter and many of 30' Catalina's. The largest fleet is the 22' Catalina's.

I should have taken a picture, there were about 3 dozen out on the lake on Saturday racing on a triangle shaped course...

Plus, owning a Sailboat out here is like a luxury form of camping, lol....
 
#46 ·
I think I will, I'm looking into insurance today and moving it from one marina to another. He's in the nicest marina at the lake for $475 a month, I can go across the lake to the city marina for $240. Plus the full service chandlery is located there...

The diesel has just under 500 hrs on it since 2005, about 60 hrs a year...
 
#47 ·
That's great news! You should still make your purchase contingent on a successful survey to be sure there are no major problems. This should include a haulout to look for blistering, "Catalina smile," keel bolt erosion, and other underwater issues. Also be sure to find out that the keel stub is not embedded with wood (subject to rot) and if it was, that it has been hollowed out and replaced with epoxy. These are all known issues with certain vintage Catalinas. (I don't recall you posting what year this boat is.)
 
#48 ·
yeah, that's the one problem I'm running into........ a survey.

I've done some research and their are a couple of mobile mechanics in town that will look at boats and but neither are certified surveyors and they were both pretty honest and said sailboats really were not their thing they were more into engines and mechanics and did mostly powered cruisers, ski boats and PWC. One even said He could give no opinion on sails, running or standing rigging but he'd look at the desiel.

The shop at this lake charges like $500 for a haul out and they do not do pre-purchase inspections because as he put it "I've made enemies and it's done more harm than good to my business when I've brought up issues that stopped a sale". he'll haul it out and you have to look at it and if you find something wrong he'll quote a price to fix it.

The owner of this 27' does have a receipt for his bottom job done in 2008 done at this shop. Although a lot could happen in 5 years, it has two coats of barrier coat and two coat of anti-fouling or at least the receipt claims that.

I know this is a large problem....
 
#49 ·
For what it's worth--

We bought our 1981 26' Seafarer with an inboard diesel last August for $6,300 and did not have a survey. (Though it was on the hard at the time of purchase.) You can educate yourself quite a bit on what and how to inspect. Based on what you wrote above, I would do my own inspection over paying and trusting someone with doubtful qualifications.
 
#50 ·
I would get a list from Cat 27 owners of common issues with the boat that should be inspected. Check out the Catalina owners groups and you should be able to get the show stoppers and how to recognize them. Then armed with info and appropriate tools, get the boat pulled and go for it. The $500 to see the bottom is worth it and just part of buying a keel boat. I bet all is great especially with a freshwater boat but take a look.

I understand the survey suggestion, but when you get below 10K and on a <30 boat I think the equation gets harder. BUT, know how to make sure the vessel is at least sound (rigging, motor, keel etc) and then...

GO SAIL IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!
 
#51 ·
I've watched quite a few surveys and paid for several more. I think that the most important tool I've ever seen used was a rubber mallet to test hull and deck integrity, especially around deck hardware and through-hulls. I've backed out of deals based on these simple results indicating core problems that could not be seen or felt.
 
#52 ·
Yep this is one of the big ones. We looked at a few boats that we could tell had deck core problems even from simple inspections around deck penetrations and in one case just by walking around on the deck. A better way to find things that can't been seen or felt would be a valuable tool. The boat we found, an M25 makes this really easy to check for as everything is inspect able from the inside which will not be the case on the C27.

I wonder though if the boat has been in Arizona the whole time, in freshwater, could this be like one of those 1960s cars that can be found in the desert in unbelievable condition. That would be very nice. Up here everything is always either wet or frozen. :(
 
#56 ·
In the end, if you are happy with what you're paying for the boat, then who cares what the rest of us think? I'm not being a smart-alec (for a change) - if you think the boat is worth $40,000, and others say it's only worth $4,000, who cares as long as you're happy paying $40,000 for it? The bigger question will be, how upset will you be if you find out that someone else bought a C27 that's basically the same age and in basically the same condition, but without all the "extras" (many of which you may not use) for half what you paid? Or, how upset will you be if the engine dies three days into you owning the boat and it costs you several thousand to get it repaired (not that I have any experience with this...)? Will you be pissed because you didn't bargain harder, or move on to a different boat (which may or may not not have had the same problems)? Are you OK with the possibility that in 2 years you'll decide that either a) you hate sailing/don't get enough use out of the C27 and need to sell the boat or b) you absolutely love sailing and are ready to move up to a C30 or other such boat, and either way you may only be able to sell the boat for the $5,000-$6,000 that most other C27's are selling for?

If you can accept these kinds of things happening, then as others have said, what are you waiting for? If you're going to kick yourself if these things come up, then you need to start negoitating or walk away.
 
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