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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
30 Minutes Ago 05:55 PM
jorgenl
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

We cruised and lived on our Catalina 400 for 2 years.

While the C400 does not have the storage space of a Valiant, Passport or Tayana, we felt it had plenty for 2 people. We carried a lot of tools and spare parts. We even managed to have a decent amount of good wine on board...

So, as long as you do not do RTW or high latitude sailing, I feel that a most 40' boats, even the production variety, has enough space for two people.
30 Minutes Ago 05:55 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I bet you just LOVE this old blue-water classic:

It just so happens I have a lot of time on Vagabond 47s... Ran one of the first imported on the East coast down south and back 7 or 8 times, and delivered a couple of others elsewhere... It was a very nice boat to motor up and down the Ditch, which is where I always headed when conditions outside started to make up... Had a bit of a scare out on Lake Erie with one, that transom had me a little nervous :-)

I've addressed those windows here before, going back and forth with Doug Sabbag when he was looking for his boat, and again recently when someone started a thread about their desire for a boat with such 'Pirate Ship' style windows...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No silly. Look at the photo you were critiquing:

Ah, silly me... I made the mistake of looking instead at the photo that accompanied your comment :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You guys really crack me up.

Are you that lazy of a skipper that you want the boat company to glue all your portlights shut for you so you won't forget to stay afloat while knocked down in an F10? Remember all that Hunter freeboard you like to gripe about? How else are you going to dunk that baby?



What about the portlights in the cockpit? Yet another "deathtrap" awaiting the hapless skipper when boarded by a humongous following sea.
OK, I have no problem with such ports, at least on most of the installations I've seen... Hell, I even have one above the quarter berth on my little deathtrap :-) However, I think most folks probably understand the subtle distinction between a portlight that opens into the cockpit, and one that opens the hull to the sea...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The training wheels comment was based on whether one assumes it's the job of the boat designer and builder to build the boat to protect the owner from doing a poor job of sailing it.

In other words, if the criticism of a boat is based on what might happen if the skipper is negligent or ignorant - then I think you're putting the onus on the wrong party. Sure, boats need to be robust and safe - but I don't want my portlights glued shut...causing me to have to try to sleep in a stifling cabin in the Carib...purely because if I forget to close it, I'll take on water in a storm.

I don't mind taking some responsibility for my boat in return for the comfort.
Just a hunch, but I'll bet that sticker plastered on that hull portlight is one of those ridiculous Warning Labels, instructing the user to "Close Before Leaving Marina", or some such nonsense... :-)

Hmmm, talk about needing "Training Wheels", eh? Seems like Hunter probably understands the demographic of the end user of their products all too well, no?

:-))

In fairness, doesn't only happen to Hunter owners:

Quote:
We had just sailed in to Opua to clear customs after a fine passage from Tonga and saw a friend from San Francisco standing on the wharf. “Hey Richard,”Larry yelled, “What you doing down here?” Richard, normally a very boisterous type, signaled he’d talk to us later, then climbed down onto what looked like a very new boat where several folks stood around looking more than a bit distressed. It turned out the boat was in fact on its very first sea trials, a million dollar special built in New Zealand for an American owner.

The designer and builder had paid for the editors of some well-known yachting publications to come along for the very first sail. Unfortunately, no one had thought to close the port lights that lined the hull before they left the dock. A fresh breeze, a short beat to windward and the portlights had gone underwater. Now about $100,000 worth of electronic gear had died, drowned in salt water...

http://www.landlpardey.com/very-obvi...g-devices.html
1 Hour Ago 04:49 PM
clmartin0721
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
And yes, even when full-time cruising you will generally spend more days at anchor or tied to a dock than out sailing, but that only makes the case for me to have a tidier, more organized interior space
Totally agree with this. Actually, I consider it a safety issue.

I certainly wouldn't even to WANT to try and duplicate lubber life when cruising. I actually have more of a minimalist approach. This is why it's good we are starting on a smaller boat. It forces us to adapt to less and to be smarter concerning storage. Also, we are cruising in an area where spares are easy to come by, so I don't need to get too crazy with those. (Because I will...it's in my nature ) Now if I were cruising in remoter areas, or on longer passages, I would have to rethink this somewhat.

I will use the V berth for overflow storage underway for now, but I am in a little boat She has a LOT of storage space for her size though.
1 Hour Ago 04:31 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
As I said, we don't sleep in the centerline bed while off-shore. We use our proper sea-berths in the salon - and/or the v-berth. The centerline bed, however, is freakin' awesome at the dock and at anchor. Wouldn't trade it for anything. Doing it this way means you have it great both ways - and, anyway, rigging lee-cloths in the salon of my Hunter is WAY easier than knocking out a couple of walls in the back of an older BW boat to enjoy more room...or worse, just living with it.

On the stowage - I haven't run into a problem yet. I'll let you know if it becomes one.
Makes sense on the sleeping arrangements. The v-berth is almost as bad as the aft cabin because of the motion so the salon is usually the best choice.

Could be your older Hunter has more stowage space than than the newer designs.
2 Hours Ago 04:20 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile1 View Post
Like you, my aft centerline queen was a big attraction when I first saw the boat at the dock, but once I started doing multi-day passages and anchoring out a lot I'm no longer so sure. If I've overlooked a way to rig lee cloths let me know, but I don't see any way to do it on my boat (or that Hunter in the pic) w/o pad eyes through-bolted on the cabin top. The mattress itself can be folded down the middle fore/aft so no problem on that end. Just no pole or other near-centerline fixtures I can see tying off to. Then again, the amidships salon is a better place to sleep, and the noise from the AP is a problem in the aft cabin as Jon points out.

As for stowage, I much prefer losing some interior space for the sake of secure storage areas. The stuff is going to take up space either way, right? Why not have it properly stowed vs. living on top of it? Having it everywhere might be OK if it's soft stuff like sails & duffle bags, but the more long-distance sailing you do the more hard, heavy parts like tools & engine spares you'll likely accumulate. I don't quite understand this trend towards gunwale to gunwale open space. Don't you guys already have plenty of space in your living & bedrooms at home?
As I said, we don't sleep in the centerline bed while off-shore. We use our proper sea-berths in the salon - and/or the v-berth. The centerline bed, however, is freakin' awesome at the dock and at anchor. Wouldn't trade it for anything. Doing it this way means you have it great both ways - and, anyway, rigging lee-cloths in the salon of my Hunter is WAY easier than knocking out a couple of walls in the back of an older BW boat to enjoy more room...or worse, just living with it.

On the stowage - I haven't run into a problem yet. I'll let you know if it becomes one.
2 Hours Ago 04:17 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by clmartin0721 View Post
As I have been looking at bigger boats, the wife REALLY likes the designs that are a little more open. On a longer cruise of say a year or more, isn't the majority of time spent at anchor in port vs. on passage? I could have that totally backwards.

If that is the case, I could see sacrificing some of the dedicated stowage space to a more comfortable cabin at anchor. Especially if the boat IS your living room and bedroom.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
That's what sells at the Boat Shows, and looks best in the brochures... Most buyers of new boats today are attempting to DUPLICATE what they have at home, after all - it's the only way many can drag the ladies along for the ride...

Next question?

;-))
clmartin -- as Jon E. points out, what sells at boat shows and looks appealing at the dock may not work out as well if you're intending to cruise full-time or even just do multi-day passages. Even though you'll get better at paring things down, there will be still be a surprising amount of "stuff" you'll want to bring along that has to go somewhere. By making modern boats more beamy & spacious, mfgs. are giving the illusion of more space but you feel differently about how much room you really have once it is filled up with your "stuff." And yes, even when full-time cruising you will generally spend more days at anchor or tied to a dock than out sailing, but that only makes the case for me to have a tidier, more organized interior space. But that's just me, and obviously others find the new designs more attractive. You have to bear in mind, however, that most boats rarely go anywhere, and thus more open space is appealing for those who wish to entertain more at the dock.
2 Hours Ago 04:12 PM
clmartin0721
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Med Sailor,

Quote:
As someone who's lived aboard 10 years I have a hard time swallowing the idea of giving up so many comforts (in design compromises) just for the small period of time that you're offshore. In fact my signature used to say that my boat would loose against yours sailing to windward but would "outperform" yours at anchor.
That is TOO funny,
I am afraid I am going to have to steal your old signature line

I am trying to find a balance between the two extremes, which seems to be a bit of a challenge. My approach will ultimately boil down to one of two paths;

1. Buy a boat with the offshore qualifications and rebuild the cabin as required
2. Buy a boat with the cabin layout and keel configuration, and upgrade the offshore
equipment and systems.
2 Hours Ago 04:01 PM
MedSailor
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by clmartin0721 View Post
As I have been looking at bigger boats, the wife REALLY likes the designs that are a little more open. On a longer cruise of say a year or more, isn't the majority of time spent at anchor in port vs. on passage? I could have that totally backwards.

If that is the case, I could see sacrificing some of the dedicated stowage space to a more comfortable cabin at anchor. Especially if the boat IS your living room and bedroom.....
This is a belief I've held for a LONG time, that too much is sacrificed for the 1% of the time that you're offshore. If you read Eric Hiscock, for example, everything about the boat design (and I mean EVERYTHING) is designed around what life is like offshore.

As someone who's lived aboard 10 years I have a hard time swallowing the idea of giving up so many comforts (in design compromises) just for the small period of time that you're offshore. In fact my signature used to say that my boat would loose against yours sailing to windward but would "outperform" yours at anchor.

However....

You've no doubt heard lots of stories of people hitting Epirbs in non-life threatening situations and heard the tales of people who sold it all and they (or the crew/family) bailed on the voyage and now the boat sits for sale in Mexico.

If the boat is a total floating gin palace with NO regard paid to the Hiscock-type offshore design characteristics then you risk your offshore passages and foul weather being SO miserable that they might make the crew hate the whole experience and give up on it entirely.

It's also hard for me to ignore the advice of so many that HAVE a lot of sea miles under their belt. Most of them aren't screaming for bigger bunks, but rather are advocating better offshore characteristics. They're living aboard too, and have to live with their compromises, but this is consistently what I hear.

So pick your poison, but as in most things, the answer for most people usually lies somewhere in the realm of moderation rather than at any of the extremes.

MedSailor
2 Hours Ago 03:58 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile1 View Post
I don't quite understand this trend towards gunwale to gunwale open space. Don't you guys already have plenty of space in your living & bedrooms at home?
That's what sells at the Boat Shows, and looks best in the brochures... Most buyers of new boats today are attempting to DUPLICATE what they have at home, after all - it's the only way many can drag the ladies along for the ride...

Next question?

;-))
2 Hours Ago 03:47 PM
clmartin0721
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

As I have been looking at bigger boats, the wife REALLY likes the designs that are a little more open. On a longer cruise of say a year or more, isn't the majority of time spent at anchor in port vs. on passage? I could have that totally backwards.

If that is the case, I could see sacrificing some of the dedicated stowage space to a more comfortable cabin at anchor. Especially if the boat IS your living room and bedroom.....
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