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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
4 Minutes Ago 05:36 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Actually, I see the need to tack downwind to a destination to be a drawback for most cruisers, I just don't think many want to be bothered to do that...

Come to think of it, many out there don't want to bother sailing downwind, period... One purpose of the full enclosure for many, would appear to keep the exhaust fumes from wafting over the transom, and into the cockpit...

:-)



My bad... Obviously, my attempts at humor are missing the mark on this Halloween :-)

Perhaps... I don't need stuff like the satellite TV, or watermaker, to be working to run a boat to Florida... But I certainly understand if the owner wants to have such issues rectified by his own yard, before the boat goes south...

Sometimes, it helps to read beyond the title of an article or reference, it often lends a bit more clarity to what the writer is speaking of:

Again, I've been clear from the get-go, I don't think I have once written the word "spreaders" in this thread without prefacing it with "deeply swept". I can't speak for others, though I'm not sure it's entirely clear that "most others" in this thread are referring only to spreaders with with minimal or any degree of rake, at all...

As usual, It Depends... :-)

Impossible to give a definitive answer, so much depends on the boat, the aspect ratio of the main, SA/Disp, and so on...

But, as a very rough guess, I'd suggest anything close to 20 degrees is pushing it, and 30 is way too much...

Just my opinion, as always... :-)
Okay - this all helps. And sounds much more reasonable. Thanks.

As for the photo, I personally am not going to hassle sailors motoring in a channel. I do exactly that most of the time in the Galveston Bay Ship Channel. I usually have the main up for backup, but the wind rarely lines up with where I need to stay within the channel to be under sail alone. So I guess I don't see the problem. But that's just me.

BTW, I'm not a member of Harries' site. So I can read past the teaser. I was just going by your post.
1 Hour Ago 04:15 PM
Capt Len
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Wow . I learned a lot reading the how to tune and the technical aspects of rigging wires. My tensioning experience leans more to handybilly and lanyards/deadeyes. But I can consider the situation where a cruiser buys into this really swept back techie stuff for what ever reason and then extends beyond the best before date or the number of working cycles or fails to get it right in self tensioning the port upper jackstaff baby jumper shroud and folds it all over the starboard deckchair.Cost of re rigging and rigger may have something to do with it while time goes by and maybe it'll work ok for another season. Looking for more stories of this ilk as the number of experienced vessels increases. . I'm pretty sure that this quality of sailing perfection is for some but others are running an outboard on a daysailer because they don't understand inboards. In between it appears to be a whole lot of coveting going on.
1 Hour Ago 04:11 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Again, you're kind of jumping all over the place in this debate. Your point for the past many pages has been how often you yourself seem to have to sail DDW which drives your dislike of swept-back spreaders. And you seem to think that this is a real drawback for ALL cruisers - when the way you seem to sail is very different than most of the other cruisers out there.
Actually, I see the need to tack downwind to a destination to be a drawback for most cruisers, I just don't think many want to be bothered to do that...

Come to think of it, many out there don't want to bother sailing downwind, period... One purpose of the full enclosure for many, would appear to keep the exhaust fumes from wafting over the transom, and into the cockpit...

:-)





Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
As for the last part, your disdain for most common cruisers is pretty clear by now. I guess I just don't dislike them as much as you.
My bad... Obviously, my attempts at humor are missing the mark on this Halloween :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
That's the way I read this part...

Maybe you're separating the boat from its systems?
Perhaps... I don't need stuff like the satellite TV, or watermaker, to be working to run a boat to Florida... But I certainly understand if the owner wants to have such issues rectified by his own yard, before the boat goes south...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Sometimes, it helps to read beyond the title of an article or reference, it often lends a bit more clarity to what the writer is speaking of:

Quote:

The boat we chartered had one rig design feature that has become almost ubiquitous these days—swept back spreaders. Heavily swept spreaders in fact, with massive cap shrouds to keep the central panel of the rig from pumping, as there were no forward lowers or even a babystay to do that job. The backstays were far smaller diameter, and in effect, simply controIled the top of the rig. And this was on masthead rigged boat—in fact, it was almost a Begstrom rig, where there are no backstays at all (and it won’t be long before…).
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So "deeply swept spreaders" may be all you're talking or thinking about - but most others in this thread (including Harries) are talking about swept-back spreaders...which covers much more than just the B&R rig.
Again, I've been clear from the get-go, I don't think I have once written the word "spreaders" in this thread without prefacing it with "deeply swept". I can't speak for others, though I'm not sure it's entirely clear that "most others" in this thread are referring only to spreaders with with minimal or any degree of rake, at all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So, to clarify it, how many degrees of "sweep" is acceptable to JonEisberg?
As usual, It Depends... :-)

Impossible to give a definitive answer, so much depends on the boat, the aspect ratio of the main, SA/Disp, and so on...

But, as a very rough guess, I'd suggest anything close to 20 degrees is pushing it, and 30 is way too much...

Just my opinion, as always... :-)
2 Hours Ago 03:00 PM
Faster
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
On MY boat the spreaders on the starboard side are deeply swept with diamond stays and on the port side are traditional and unswept. I get the best of all worlds on my boat!

MedSailor

Tuned your own rig, did you, Med??
2 Hours Ago 02:55 PM
MedSailor
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene505 View Post
I personally think that traditional spreaders have a severe limitation very similar to the limitation of swept back spreaders. In 60 knots or thereabouts, you can't over extend the boom forward for greater control. My other boat can do this. It has forward swept spreaders, which makes for increased stability.



Enjoying the thread, thought I'd add a bit of humor.

Regards,
Brad

HA! Sounds like something Hunter would come up with. What crap!

On MY boat the spreaders on the starboard side are deeply swept with diamond stays and on the port side are traditional and unswept. I get the best of all worlds on my boat!

MedSailor
2 Hours Ago 02:47 PM
Bene505
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I personally think that traditional spreaders have a severe limitation very similar to the limitation of swept back spreaders. In 60 knots or thereabouts, you can't over extend the boom forward for greater control. My other boat can do this. It has forward swept spreaders, which makes for increased stability.

Heck, I can loosen the main sheet to where the main is flapping under the forestay like a flag! It's excellent for gusts, provides good directionality and helm control, is great for running, and when you want a little more power, you just pull the boom in to where it's over the forward deck chairs -- still forward of the mast, but providing some wind resistance.

All you non forward-raked spreader sailors don't know what you are talking about!



Enjoying the thread, thought I'd add a bit of humor.

Regards,
Brad
3 Hours Ago 01:59 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Ahhh, right... What was I thinking?

A cruiser would NEVER encounter such weather... And, in the event one ever did, they'd simply trigger the EPIRB, or grab the satphone, and get the Coasties or one of those AMVER ships on the scene, pronto...
Again, you're kind of jumping all over the place in this debate. Your point for the past many pages has been how often you yourself seem to have to sail DDW which drives your dislike of swept-back spreaders. And you seem to think that this is a real drawback for ALL cruisers - when the way you seem to sail is very different than most of the other cruisers out there.

So, to be clear, once again, I don't doubt that a cruiser will experience 50 knots at some point. But I do seriously doubt that when they do, their ONLY choice will be having to sail DDW with a large amount of main up and over-trimmed.

As for the last part, your disdain for most common cruisers is pretty clear by now. I guess I just don't dislike them as much as you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I "hammered" the boat's quality? Really?
That's the way I read this part...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
We were actually scheduled to depart right after Thanksgiving weekend. But, problem after problem continued to arise with various 'systems' aboard, gotta love the complexity of those CRUISING WORLD "Best Full-Size Cruiser" BOTY Winners :-) and then there was a further delay, waiting for the Leisure-Furl motor to be shipped back from Germany after a repair...

Naturally, one of the final chores before catching the flight back home from Lauderdale for Christmas after the trip, was taking the L-F motor over to FedEx, to once again be shipped back to Germany...
Maybe you're separating the boat from its systems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
And, here's a news flash for you... I would never leave the dock, with my own boat or anyone else's, if I wasn't aware that doing so involved a willingness to accept "the risk of damaging the boat"...
I wouldn't either. So we're square there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
As they say, Reading is Fundamental... :-)

Sorry, I thought it was clear from my initial response to your comment about the B&R rig, that we were talking about "deeply swept spreaders" similar to the B&R you mentioned, and the Beneteau Oceanis you linked to...
Ahm, you also posted this: Swept Back Spreaders A Disadvantage On An Offshore Cruising Sailboat

So "deeply swept spreaders" may be all you're talking or thinking about - but most others in this thread (including Harries) are talking about swept-back spreaders...which covers much more than just the B&R rig.

So, to clarify it, how many degrees of "sweep" is acceptable to JonEisberg?
3 Hours Ago 01:59 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - then I suppose we're getting down to the number of degrees of "swept-back" now. Not just the categorical "swept back is bad" thing?
As they say, Reading is Fundamental... :-)

Sorry, I thought it was clear from my initial response to your comment about the B&R rig, that we were talking about "deeply swept spreaders" similar to the B&R you mentioned, and the Beneteau Oceanis you linked to...

Over 25 posts ago:


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This is actually a great point - and a very, very interesting one. Remember all the hullabaloo about the arch when it first came out? Then all the trashtalk about the swept back spreaders on the B&R rig? This was YEARS ago.

Have you seen the new Beneteau Oceanis series? Heh-heh.

Oceanis 41 / Oceanis / Sailboats - BENETEAU USA
So, because the Latest & Greatest Beneteau features an arch and a deeply swept rig, their respective downsides are effectively dismissed, and the 'issue' is settled once and for all?

Damn, who knew?
4 Hours Ago 01:39 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This is a discussion about cruising boats..cruising. As shown by your example, deliveries are a completely different ball of wax - much more akin to racing.

So let's keep things in context.
Ahhh, right... What was I thinking?

A cruiser would NEVER encounter such weather... And, in the event one ever did, they'd simply trigger the EPIRB, or grab the satphone, and get the Coasties or one of those AMVER ships on the scene, pronto...

:-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So, first, you hammer your client's boat quality, then you say you were willing to risk damage to the boat because you would have been embarrassed to motor in 50 knots? Nice.
I "hammered" the boat's quality? Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg

Well, if you're actually gonna go places, sometimes that's required... Pretty much the nature of the delivery business, after all... But I had the utmost confidence in the boat, and my crew, one of the best sailors I've ever had the pleasure to travel with...
A passing remark about the complexity of many of today's 'Globe Girdlers' is not necessarily a criticism of the boat itself. The Trintella in every respect was a very impressive yacht, but it certainly was a far more complicated boat than I'd ever care to deal with... Even the owner realized that in fairly short order, the boat was for sale after a few years of use... Like so many owners of custom built Dream Boats today, he probably spent more time building the thing, than owning it. Even he liked to joke about the fact that there had NEVER been a time when everything on board was ever working at the same time... :-)

Sorry, guess I forgot the sarcasm font with the comment on motoring... However, I am generally adverse to motoring in heavy conditions, bad things can happen. But I certainly would have done so, if I really thought continuing to sail would have entailed taking a needless risk...

And, here's a news flash for you... I would never leave the dock, with my own boat or anyone else's, if I wasn't aware that doing so involved a willingness to accept "the risk of damaging the boat"...

:-)
4 Hours Ago 01:28 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
True enough. Unfortunately the other factor is that some people are very defensive about their boats. I suggest that we should be realistic that nothing is perfect. I can list the deficiencies of all my boats, cars, trucks, motorcycles, and houses. I have a few personal deficiencies as well. *grin* We should be honest about such things.
Again - bingo.
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