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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
7 Hours Ago 12:52 AM
aeventyr60
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Heh-heh. Ausp - you and Jon seriously crack me up. "Uncivilized"?

So, if we stow fenders in a holder on the rail we're ignorant, unseamanlike Gypsies. And cameras come out.

If we stow them below somewhere, we're uncivilized.

So, the only way to do this "right" is to buy a boat with deep, voluminous lockers?

Okaaaaaayyyyy.
If you get out and actually cruise, you might find you won't need so many fenders. Better that storage space be allocated to other water toys and of course some adult beverages.
8 Hours Ago 11:33 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Now, what do I give up? True, I can't lay my main out 85 degrees. So what? The main on my Hunter is actually relatively small. It's the headsail that gives it its power. So I'll get a cruising assym and only lose a few degrees, but will still be going faster than the dude doing his WoW.

I see very few downsides.
Well, I think if you're ever in a situation where you're sailing deep downwind in a blow and big seas, you'll begin to see the downsides of having to contend with such conditions with a constantly over-trimmed main... :-)

So, yeah, other than the potential for increased chafe on the main, and difficulty of reefing it when sailing deep, the sacrifice of the full projection of sail area, the creation of added weather helm and increasing the potential for an accidental jibe when sailing DDW, and the fact that your main might still be be over-trimmed even as the boat wants wants to round up or broach in sporty conditions, there are very few downsides to deeply swept spreaders... :-)

Sure, easy to say you'll simply sail higher angles, set an asymetrical, and gybe your way to a destination directly downwind... But in the real world, that sometimes simply isn't a good option, and sailing DDW can often be the preferred - and far "simpler" - way to go...

btw, you'll lose more than a "few" degrees sailing hotter angles with a cruising chute... And, I still don't think your Hunter, loaded for kroozing, is gonna be as fast in terms of VMG as you think it is...

:-))
9 Hours Ago 11:01 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
You can adjust swept diamond rig depth by adjusting the diamond tension. This is done with hydraulics or mechanical throws but can create out of column conditions easily. Mast head swept rigs have very little adjustability for draft comtrol, swept fracs have better draft control provided the crane is eccentric.
Most modern swept rigs on cruising boats are set and forget. There is no way to board out the main.
Cool - thanks for that feedback shock. I'm actually okay with that. I'd likely reef to de-power way before I needed to board it out. I am cruising with youngsters after all.

Sure, I'd like to power up at times for fun...but for the most part, I like set and forget. We had running backstays for the mizzen on the Pearson 365 Ketch we raced. Not a fan. I can't imagine managing runners, checks, babies, hydraulics, etc. just to get to the next pig roast.
9 Hours Ago 10:44 PM
Shockwave
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

You can adjust swept diamond rig depth by adjusting the diamond tension. This is done with hydraulics or mechanical throws but can create out of column conditions easily. Mast head swept rigs have very little adjustability for draft comtrol, swept fracs have better draft control provided the crane is eccentric.
Most modern swept rigs on cruising boats are set and forget. There is no way to board out the main.
10 Hours Ago 10:15 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Actually, Smack, I suspect that with your diamond-trussed swept spreader rig the only thing adjusting your backstay will do is tension the forestay (not a bad thing).. I doubt backstay tension does much to your pre-stressed rigging-induced mast bend, esp if you don't have hydraulics..
I see your point. That makes sense.

It definitely seems like a very stout rig.
10 Hours Ago 09:58 PM
Faster
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Actually, Smack, I suspect that with your diamond-trussed swept spreader rig the only thing adjusting your backstay will do is tension the forestay (not a bad thing).. I doubt backstay tension does much to your pre-stressed rigging-induced mast bend, esp if you don't have hydraulics..

Our boat is another Holland designed/swept spreader setup, it is a limiting factor but not a major one as sailing DDW is not my favourite thing to do in any event.

I do think that economics and cost savings probably do have a lot to do with how rigs are designed these days.. and boats too, along with construction techniques.
10 Hours Ago 09:41 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I think the spreaders issue is pretty obvious: simplicity. As shock mentions it simplifies the rig and the attention it requires. This is what most cruisers (not racers) want...and, most of them being shorthanded and older, what they actually need. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

My Hunter's B&R rig actually still has the backstay (split/adjustable similar to the Bene above). So I can have a good deal of control over the mast/main. But, I (probably like most cruising sailors) honestly don't know the intricacies of fine tuning stay tension, etc. And, unless I'm racing, I don't really care. I just like getting out there and sailing. And I can. Again, simplicity.

Now, what do I give up? True, I can't lay my main out 85 degrees. So what? The main on my Hunter is actually relatively small. It's the headsail that gives it its power. So I'll get a cruising assym and only lose a few degrees, but will still be going faster than the dude doing his WoW.

I see very few downsides.
10 Hours Ago 09:37 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Jon, the advantage of swept spreaders is the elimination of checks. The disadvantages are increased wear and tear on the main and the inability to ease the main fully when deep.

If an inner forestay is added then checks are required, whether the spreaders are swept or not, to support the spar where the inner forestay terminates.
Certainly, that is one rationale... Makes a bit less sense, however, when virtually none of these new Sense-Boats and their kin feature inner forestays... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Marketing dictates that pulling in the checks and tensioning them is a bridge to far......... Remember, even travelers are disappearing, who wants to have to deal with forward D1's, preloaded spars and checks?

Well, other then you and me I guess?
What's ironic about that, is that in the desire to make sailing more 'effortless' by eliminating something like running backstays, the result is a rig that might often compel cruisers with deeply swept spreaders to wind up having to sail higher angles and repeatedly gybe downwind...

The boats I have the most experience with swept spreaders are the Ron Holland Trintellas... The 47 and the 50 still had running backs, and those rigs really needed them...

Perhaps not entirely unrelated to the fact that riggers HATED having to tune the damn things... :-)
11 Hours Ago 09:19 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
They're great on a mizzen. You never have the boom out downwind on a mizzen anyway.

Advantages for a sloop? Brand differentiation?

Medsailor
Well, with so many big builders going that route, I'm not sure how much differentiation there is, anymore...

I think Colin Speedie might have the answer, and it's hardly a shocker:

Such rigs are cheaper to build... :-)

So, the end user gets to live with the disadvantages of something that's primarily to the advantage of the builder... Lucky us, eh? :-)

Quote:

Some say they can make for closer sheeting angles for headsails, but there are other ways of achieving that such as sheeting inside shrouds. OK, without forward lowers or a babystay there’s less windage and weight aloft. And in some cases it may be possible to use a smaller section mast, I’ve heard it claimed.

But the over-riding factor seems to me to be cost. It must be far less expensive for a yard to install one oversized set of chainplates taking all of the rigging loads into a suitably reinforced matrix in the hull than the traditional way of installing several chainplates, plus their attachments below deck, reinforcing the hull over a larger area and then concealing them with joinery. The latter is far more labour intensive, and labour costs money—lots of it. And as you can also do away with the cost of the lowers, mast attachments, bottlescrews and the like, it may be understandable why that would be an attractive option for builders, especially in the current climate. Boatbuilidng has always been a financially precarious business, and cost cutting exercises that don’t on the face of it harm the ‘product’ (i.e. the rig still stays up), but help the bottom line, must be hard to ignore.

Some of the earlier boats that have one big ‘cluster’ chainplate are now a good few years old, and there have been reports of failures of these units, usually on GRP boats where the stainless chainplate has suffered from unseen crevice corrosion below deck level. These units are, in effect, massive single points of failure, and should (at least) be checked regularly for any signs of corrosion—although that’s often easier said than done as they tend to be built in, and hard to get at. Because if the chainplate fails, there’s little or no chance that you can save the rig, unlike a traditional fore and aft lower set up, where one stay failing might not be catastrophic.

Swept Back Spreaders A Disadvantage On An Offshore Cruising Sailboat
11 Hours Ago 08:54 PM
Shockwave
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Jon, the advantage of swept spreaders is the elimination of checks. The disadvantages are increased wear and tear on the main and the inability to ease the main fully when deep.

If an inner forestay is added then checks are required, whether the spreaders are swept or not, to support the spar where the inner forestay terminates.

Marketing dictates that pulling in the checks and tensioning them is a bridge to far......... Remember, even travelers are disappearing, who wants to have to deal with forward D1's, preloaded spars and checks?

Well, other then you and me I guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I think it would be considered an 'Early IOR' design, before boats built to that rule started getting too radical... she certainly has the pinched ends that were common to race boats of that era, but still is surprisingly well-mannered off the wind, I rarely encounter a situation that the autopilot or vane isn't able to handle comfortably... I've added so much additional weight to the boat, so she's way down on her designed lines, so is quite a different boat now than what Brit originally designed...

I don't even want to know what the TRUE SA/D ratio of my boat really is, she definitely likes a bit of breeze. Still, a Code O or spinnaker manages to keep her going thru the light stuff...



Damn, sorry about that... Haven't been looking over there much recently, and I rarely think of checking for messages... :-)

So, I posed the question awhile back, looks like there have been no takers... Seems no one can think of any real advantages or benefits of those sexy deeply swept spreaders on boats like the Oceanis 41 for the type of sailing most cruisers do, huh?

:-)


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