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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
4 Hours Ago 10:46 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hmmm, it appears you missed the point of my "anecdote" posted above...

It had nothing to do with remembering/forgetting to close those hull portlights on that Marine Trader...

;-)
Weren't those in the pretty vertical transom? And weren't you kind of parked on a bar in questionable weather with that transom facing the waves?

Again - anything can happen. I just think the Hunter's portlight you were critiquing will probably be okay as long the skipper remembers to close it.
5 Hours Ago 10:26 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yes, it is pretty subtle really. Because if you leave either open in a storm, you're in for trouble. The sea/rain/etc. will find a way...even into a cockpit.

So, if you remember to close one, you'll probably remember to close both.
Hmmm, it appears you missed the point of my "anecdote" posted above...

It had nothing to do with remembering/forgetting to close those hull portlights on that Marine Trader...

;-)
5 Hours Ago 09:53 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
OK, I have no problem with such ports, at least on most of the installations I've seen... Hell, I even have one above the quarter berth on my little deathtrap :-) However, I think most folks probably understand the subtle distinction between a portlight that opens into the cockpit, and one that opens the hull to the sea...
Yes, it is pretty subtle really. Because if you leave either open in a storm, you're in for trouble. The sea/rain/etc. will find a way...even into a cockpit.

So, if you remember to close one, you'll probably remember to close both.
5 Hours Ago 09:52 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I can only speak from my limited experience.
I have 7 berthes.
The forward centerline quen is never used underway. Even when it's just me and the bride. Hard to sleep when airborne.
I have five berths aft of the stick. Never use the double made by lowering the saloon table rather saloon rigged for two berths with leeclothes.
I clear two lockers for each crew. Nothing and I mean nothing Is left out to fly around. No one hot bunks. The top of the forward queen has nothing on it so we can get to stuff under it if necessary. ( bunk on hydraulic cylinders)
The boat will survive a knock down. No one will be hurt by missiles.

Boat has done passages, seen 60kts, beat to windward for 5 d in 30-45. Nothing is broken and after 1y living on it other than a few dings in the sole looks boat show new.

New boats designed and executed for offshore sailing perform better and are easier to sail. Off shore boats have real storage and accessibility to systems. We stand single watches.

Compared to the same size older boat VMG is better so day's work is longer. With improved materials and execution voyage is safer. The NAs and builders haven't been sitting on their hands.

Boat is not an investment. It is a money pit. To think otherwise is foolish unless you are going to only stay in one locale. Boat unit is $1k for a reason. If your dream is to sail to distant ports and live( that mean a lot of junk to store)safely and comfortably often the best decision is to leave less for your kids to frit away and buy a new quality boat design for offshore sailing and customized to your liking or do a one off. Yes either choice makes no sense economically just like marriage. Although fewer people get married now a days folks still do it.
Economically best decision is to buy an used one off done to your liking.
If buying production and funds limited a good used PSC, Valiant, hinckley etc. makes more sense. If go small go now a BCC or like boat makes sense. Something where you're not concerned about oilcaning or structural failure because something is glued not glued and bolted or has inadequate safety margin. You only have one life. How much is that worth?
Have you read "Sea Trials" by Peter Bourke? Great sea story about sailing the singlehanded OSTAR from Plymouth, England to Newport, RI on an Outbound yacht.
6 Hours Ago 08:43 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I can only speak from my limited experience.
I have 7 berthes.
The forward centerline quen is never used underway. Even when it's just me and the bride. Hard to sleep when airborne.
I have five berths aft of the stick. Never use the double made by lowering the saloon table rather saloon rigged for two berths with leeclothes.
I clear two lockers for each crew. Nothing and I mean nothing Is left out to fly around. No one hot bunks. The top of the forward queen has nothing on it so we can get to stuff under it if necessary. ( bunk on hydraulic cylinders)
The boat will survive a knock down. No one will be hurt by missiles.

Boat has done passages, seen 60kts, beat to windward for 5 d in 30-45. Nothing is broken and after 1y living on it other than a few dings in the sole looks boat show new.

New boats designed and executed for offshore sailing perform better and are easier to sail. Off shore boats have real storage and accessibility to systems. We stand single watches.

Compared to the same size older boat VMG is better so day's work is longer. With improved materials and execution voyage is safer. The NAs and builders haven't been sitting on their hands.

Boat is not an investment. It is a money pit. To think otherwise is foolish unless you are going to only stay in one locale. Boat unit is $1k for a reason. If your dream is to sail to distant ports and live( that mean a lot of junk to store)safely and comfortably often the best decision is to leave less for your kids to frit away and buy a new quality boat design for offshore sailing and customized to your liking or do a one off. Yes either choice makes no sense economically just like marriage. Although fewer people get married now a days folks still do it.
Economically best decision is to buy an used one off done to your liking.
If buying production and funds limited a good used PSC, Valiant, hinckley etc. makes more sense. If go small go now a BCC or like boat makes sense. Something where you're not concerned about oilcaning or structural failure because something is glued not glued and bolted or has inadequate safety margin. You only have one life. How much is that worth?
9 Hours Ago 05:55 PM
jorgenl
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

We cruised and lived on our Catalina 400 for 2 years.

While the C400 does not have the storage space of a Valiant, Passport or Tayana, we felt it had plenty for 2 people. We carried a lot of tools and spare parts. We even managed to have a decent amount of good wine on board...

So, as long as you do not do RTW or high latitude sailing, I feel that a most 40' boats, even the production variety, has enough space for two people.
9 Hours Ago 05:55 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I bet you just LOVE this old blue-water classic:

It just so happens I have a lot of time on Vagabond 47s... Ran one of the first imported on the East coast down south and back 7 or 8 times, and delivered a couple of others elsewhere... It was a very nice boat to motor up and down the Ditch, which is where I always headed when conditions outside started to make up... Had a bit of a scare out on Lake Erie with one, that transom had me a little nervous :-)

I've addressed those windows here before, going back and forth with Doug Sabbag when he was looking for his boat, and again recently when someone started a thread about their desire for a boat with such 'Pirate Ship' style windows...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No silly. Look at the photo you were critiquing:

Ah, silly me... I made the mistake of looking instead at the photo that accompanied your comment :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You guys really crack me up.

Are you that lazy of a skipper that you want the boat company to glue all your portlights shut for you so you won't forget to stay afloat while knocked down in an F10? Remember all that Hunter freeboard you like to gripe about? How else are you going to dunk that baby?



What about the portlights in the cockpit? Yet another "deathtrap" awaiting the hapless skipper when boarded by a humongous following sea.
OK, I have no problem with such ports, at least on most of the installations I've seen... Hell, I even have one above the quarter berth on my little deathtrap :-) However, I think most folks probably understand the subtle distinction between a portlight that opens into the cockpit, and one that opens the hull to the sea...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The training wheels comment was based on whether one assumes it's the job of the boat designer and builder to build the boat to protect the owner from doing a poor job of sailing it.

In other words, if the criticism of a boat is based on what might happen if the skipper is negligent or ignorant - then I think you're putting the onus on the wrong party. Sure, boats need to be robust and safe - but I don't want my portlights glued shut...causing me to have to try to sleep in a stifling cabin in the Carib...purely because if I forget to close it, I'll take on water in a storm.

I don't mind taking some responsibility for my boat in return for the comfort.
Just a hunch, but I'll bet that sticker plastered on that hull portlight is one of those ridiculous Warning Labels, instructing the user to "Close Before Leaving Marina", or some such nonsense... :-)

Hmmm, talk about needing "Training Wheels", eh? Seems like Hunter probably understands the demographic of the end user of their products all too well, no?

:-))

In fairness, doesn't only happen to Hunter owners:

Quote:
We had just sailed in to Opua to clear customs after a fine passage from Tonga and saw a friend from San Francisco standing on the wharf. “Hey Richard,”Larry yelled, “What you doing down here?” Richard, normally a very boisterous type, signaled he’d talk to us later, then climbed down onto what looked like a very new boat where several folks stood around looking more than a bit distressed. It turned out the boat was in fact on its very first sea trials, a million dollar special built in New Zealand for an American owner.

The designer and builder had paid for the editors of some well-known yachting publications to come along for the very first sail. Unfortunately, no one had thought to close the port lights that lined the hull before they left the dock. A fresh breeze, a short beat to windward and the portlights had gone underwater. Now about $100,000 worth of electronic gear had died, drowned in salt water...

http://www.landlpardey.com/very-obvi...g-devices.html
10 Hours Ago 04:49 PM
clmartin0721
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
And yes, even when full-time cruising you will generally spend more days at anchor or tied to a dock than out sailing, but that only makes the case for me to have a tidier, more organized interior space
Totally agree with this. Actually, I consider it a safety issue.

I certainly wouldn't even to WANT to try and duplicate lubber life when cruising. I actually have more of a minimalist approach. This is why it's good we are starting on a smaller boat. It forces us to adapt to less and to be smarter concerning storage. Also, we are cruising in an area where spares are easy to come by, so I don't need to get too crazy with those. (Because I will...it's in my nature ) Now if I were cruising in remoter areas, or on longer passages, I would have to rethink this somewhat.

I will use the V berth for overflow storage underway for now, but I am in a little boat She has a LOT of storage space for her size though.
11 Hours Ago 04:31 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
As I said, we don't sleep in the centerline bed while off-shore. We use our proper sea-berths in the salon - and/or the v-berth. The centerline bed, however, is freakin' awesome at the dock and at anchor. Wouldn't trade it for anything. Doing it this way means you have it great both ways - and, anyway, rigging lee-cloths in the salon of my Hunter is WAY easier than knocking out a couple of walls in the back of an older BW boat to enjoy more room...or worse, just living with it.

On the stowage - I haven't run into a problem yet. I'll let you know if it becomes one.
Makes sense on the sleeping arrangements. The v-berth is almost as bad as the aft cabin because of the motion so the salon is usually the best choice.

Could be your older Hunter has more stowage space than than the newer designs.
11 Hours Ago 04:20 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile1 View Post
Like you, my aft centerline queen was a big attraction when I first saw the boat at the dock, but once I started doing multi-day passages and anchoring out a lot I'm no longer so sure. If I've overlooked a way to rig lee cloths let me know, but I don't see any way to do it on my boat (or that Hunter in the pic) w/o pad eyes through-bolted on the cabin top. The mattress itself can be folded down the middle fore/aft so no problem on that end. Just no pole or other near-centerline fixtures I can see tying off to. Then again, the amidships salon is a better place to sleep, and the noise from the AP is a problem in the aft cabin as Jon points out.

As for stowage, I much prefer losing some interior space for the sake of secure storage areas. The stuff is going to take up space either way, right? Why not have it properly stowed vs. living on top of it? Having it everywhere might be OK if it's soft stuff like sails & duffle bags, but the more long-distance sailing you do the more hard, heavy parts like tools & engine spares you'll likely accumulate. I don't quite understand this trend towards gunwale to gunwale open space. Don't you guys already have plenty of space in your living & bedrooms at home?
As I said, we don't sleep in the centerline bed while off-shore. We use our proper sea-berths in the salon - and/or the v-berth. The centerline bed, however, is freakin' awesome at the dock and at anchor. Wouldn't trade it for anything. Doing it this way means you have it great both ways - and, anyway, rigging lee-cloths in the salon of my Hunter is WAY easier than knocking out a couple of walls in the back of an older BW boat to enjoy more room...or worse, just living with it.

On the stowage - I haven't run into a problem yet. I'll let you know if it becomes one.
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