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Sailing, safety, & size

28K views 216 replies 33 participants last post by  sneuman 
#1 ·
Hi all,

Over the last week, I have read a number of posts, here and other places, regarding not feeling safe in open water in smaller boats. Now days that seems to mean less then 35 ft!

How many out there equate size to safety? Does it have anything to do with it? If you think size does provide safety, why? What's the logic? :confused:

Do you feel safer in your home country, state? Or is it just in the head of the person making the judgment? After cruising Mexico for years, we feel safer there than in the US! (Excluding ALL boarder towns!)

I am currently reading a book, The Terrible Loyalty, by Sandy Moss. Jill and I met Dave Chamberlain (who the book is about) in the California Delta when we were cruising there a few months back. It's about the voyage of a 20 ft. boat from the West Coast to Hawaii. A very good read!

Disclosure;
I am a geezer and remember when a 32 ft. boat was a BIG ocean going boat! And, Jill and I have cruised on boats from 132 Ft. to our current Nor'Sea 27. We prefer our 27 to all of them.

I have never understood how or why people equate size to safety. Witness the Titanic! ;)

Greg
 
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#77 · (Edited)
Precisely! I am always amazed at the religious fervor with which people can vociferously debate these "How Long is a piece of string?" type issues. The reality is that like so many of these things, there is no one-size-fits-all, universally always correct answer here.

The safety of any length boat derives from the specific individual and the specific boat in question. The reality is that people buy boats based on what they fear the most. The unspoken decision process is based on a range of questions; Questions such as: (Caution: The following material may contain items which were stated with tongue firmly planted in cheek.)
-Do I fear being uncomfortable more than I fear not being able to manhandle the boat?
-Do I fear a large amount of complexity more than I fear having to give up performance and seakeeping?
-Do I fear spending a lot of money to buy and maintain a boat than I fear living in a cramped cabin?
-Do I fear being rolled in a 25 foot wave, than I fear being rolled in a 50 foot wave?
-Do I fear having to work for a few more years more than I fear not have a dedicated_______ (fill in the blank...chart table, galley table, pilothouse,gigantic steering wheel or twin wheels, etc.)
-Do I fear having a dinghy which is a third of the length of my boat and needs to be deflated and stored more than I fear not being able to anchor close to shore?
-Do I fear taking twice as long making a passage, than I fear paying for a bigger slip or not being able to trailer my boat?
-Do I fear having to ration my consumables on a long passage more than I fear losing fingers or worse adjusting extremely highly stressed control lines?
-Do I fear the sense of being isolated from the sailing that comes with highly mechanized sailing more than I fear the physical labor of sailing a smaller less mechanized boat?

And so on…

And the next thing you know these discussions get distorted with anecdotal and asymmetrical arguments. Take the original poster for example. He happens to own one of the few small purpose built cruisers that may actually be safer to sail than the majority of boats which are larger. But in the vast universe of similar sized boats, a boat this size which is also as capable of making safe distance voyages is a rarity. Which is okay, since few people have the mindset that it takes to make long distance offshore passages in a boat that is this small.

On the other extreme are the points raised by my esteemed colleague, Paulo. Paulo rightly points at very large designs which are well designed and engineered to allow a couple to safely handle them in a broad range of conditions. These are truly amazing boats that demonstrate what the ingenuity of man can accomplish. But again, few of us can afford to buy one these, and frankly few of us have the skills that it would take to sail one of these well, and safely, and to repair any possible critical element that might happen to fail mid-passage.

And even if (and I know that is a big 'if') we can agree that these particular larger boats can be safely handled by a couple if properly engineered and equipped, that does not apply to all larger boats. For as good as these examples may be, the majority of big boats out there are neither designed, or equipped or even easily adaptable to being safely sailed by a couple.

And at the end of the day, the reality is that boats at neither end of the extremes truly make sense for any of us. In an ideal world, we have each analyzed our specific needs in terms of how and where we sail, comfort requirements, purchase and operating budget, need for speed, tastes, skill sets, and physical abilities, and purchased the exact right boat that is the precise mix of virtues and liabilities to unequivocally correspond to our needs. And that boat is precisely the right sized boat for safety. (At least, until our needs and our corresponding analysis once changes one way or the other.)
 
#81 ·
.....
-Do I fear being uncomfortable more than I fear not being able to manhandle the boat?
-Do I fear a large amount of complexity more than I fear having to give up performance and seakeeping?
-Do I fear spending a lot of money to buy and maintain a boat than I fear living in a cramped cabin?
-Do I fear being rolled in a 25 foot wave, than I fear being rolled in a 50 foot wave?
-Do I fear having to work for a few more years more than I fear not have a dedicated_______ (fill in the blank...chart table, galley table, pilothouse,gigantic steering wheel or twin wheels, etc.)
-Do I fear having a dinghy which is a third of the length of my boat and needs to be deflated and stored more than I fear not being able to anchor close to shore?
-Do I fear taking twice as long making a passage, than I fear paying for a bigger slip or not being able to trailer my boat?
-Do I fear having to ration my consumables on a long passage more than I fear losing fingers or worse adjusting extremely highly stressed control lines?
-Do I fear the sense of being isolated from the sailing that comes with highly mechanized sailing more than I fear the physical labor of sailing a smaller less mechanized boat?

And so on…
.........
Jeff,

Also, I want to say that we chose and keep our boat, not from the "fear" you talk about...... BUT, an analysis and decision one EVERY point you talk about! That is, for an example, we don't fear the time of a passage, no matter what size boat we have, but we do take it into consideration. ;)

Greg
 
#75 ·
The Marine Flower 2 is a Sundeer 64 ketch. They were designed as a couple boat and are rigged for sailing from the cockpit. They have probably completed more circumnavigations than any other boat their size, often only sailed by 2.

There was nothing wrong with the boat.

The owner/skipper was inexperienced, at least with this boat.

He should not have been there.

This link catalogs boats and mileage.
SetSail» Blog Archive » Deerfoot and Sundeer History
 
#76 · (Edited)
How do you know the experience of the Marine Flower 2 Skipper?

Even the designers of the Sundeer 64 say they now do not feel comfortable handling such a boat and now have designed a similar power boat:

From:

DashewOffshore.com - the serious cruising sailor's website
This quote from the Dashew's;

"But we've past the point where we were comfortable handling this much sail by ourselves, and we did not want to take crew. The FPB was the next step for us, and perhaps for others facing the same dilemma.

When we started this new project Linda was all for it. Steve, on the other hand, felt he was being forced in this direction by the march of time. At 62 years and counting, it was no longer prudent for the two of us to cross oceans, dealing with the spinnakers and reachers that are part of our sailing equation."

Also, some reports state Marine Flower II was taking on water. Even the CG rescue swimmer stated this in one of his posted interviews. Also wikipedia reported the vessel taking on water:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Gordon_(1994)

From
Offshore, a family of four required rescue from the Coast Guard after their boat began filling with water in the midst of 17 ft (5.2 m) surf.[43] A 49 ft (15 m) sailboat was disabled about 115 mi (185 km) offshore Norfolk, Virginia, and the crew of three were also rescued by the Coast Guard.[1] The sailboat was sailing from Bermuda to Oxford, Maryland, but was halted after the engine failed, the anchor was ripped off, and the mainstay was torn.[44] The interaction between Gordon and a ridge over New England produced coastal flooding in eastern Virginia. Tides reached 4 ft (1.2 m) above normal in Virginia Beach, which washed away 100 ft (30 m) of a fishing pier. The high tides caused road damage and minor housing damage.[18]

[43]
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/storm_wallets/atlantic/atl1994/gordon/preloc/ilm04.gif

Also, Hurricane Gordon was a very complex system. The weather bureau could not accurately predict its path or fomation. Go online and look at its track- it made 6 landfalls:



Hurricane Gordon[edit]Category 1 hurricane (SSHS)

Duration November 8 - November 21
Peak intensity 85 mph (140 km/h) (1-min) 980 mbar (hPa)

Main article: Hurricane Gordon (1994)
Hurricane Gordon was the final storm of the season. The system formed near Panama in the southwestern Caribbean Sea on November 9. Strengthening into a tropical storm, Gordon wound its way north into the Greater Antilles. Despite warm waters, persistent wind shear prevented significant strengthening. Executing a slow turn to the north and then the northwest, Gordon made two more landfalls, on eastern Jamaica and eastern Cuba. As Tropical Storm Gordon made its fourth landfall crossing the Florida Keys, it interacted with a cyclone in the upper-troposphere and a series of cyclonic lows which lent the storm some sub-tropical characteristics. After a few days as an unusual hybrid of a tropical and a subtropical system in the Gulf of Mexico, the storm re-claimed its tropical storm status and it made another landfall across the Florida peninsula and continued into the Atlantic Ocean. In the Atlantic, Gordon rapidly strengthened to a Category 1 hurricane. Gordon's characteristic briefly approached North Carolina, but ultimately the storm headed south, weakening into a minor tropical storm before making its sixth and final landfall on Florida's east coast. Overall, the storm made six separate landfalls.[42]

Those Sundeers look like amazing boats, never herd of them before. Interesting no one went out after Gordon to try to claim the boat. Looks like the value was over $500k. Also interesting the boat did not show up in Europe later in the year, unless it was taking on water. Boat has at least two water tight bulkheads.
 
#78 ·
Jeff,

Well said. :)

When I started the thread, I only had in mind asking why so many people equate size with safety. It is NOT. You can get a very safe & seaworthy boat in just about ANY size. Because my Nor'Sea is 27 foot, she is not automatically unsafe. I know that many 27s might be unsafe for blue water. Just because a boat is 65 foot, does NOT guarantee she is safe. AND a lot depends on the crew!

My working carrier was in the aerospace industry. The last 10+ in spacecraft. I worked with many of the best engineers in the world. But that did not mean we didn't have failures!! ;)

Greg
 
#83 ·
Just for fun lets ask our selfs what exactly safer means? does it mean that big boats, say over 40' don't need liferafts or epribs? If this is the case why is that larger boats are more likely to carry more "safety" gear in anticipation of catastrophic loss? Why is it that 9 of 10 coast guard rescue videos are of large boats and how is it possible that small boats have safely crossed every sea in the world since the beginning of time? Its not the boat! :)
 
#85 · (Edited)
Because Fear is good. Those stickers that say "No Fear" are BS. Fear is what will save you. When you are on a small boat in a big storm, a really big storm, and you have only yourself to depend and no life raft. You should have some fear. Some people buy big boats out of fear of sailing a small boat. But fear is good. That fear will keep you on your toes, and prevent you from making deadly mistakes. The fear will help you fix your sinking boat. Fear is good, it has kept man alive for 1 million years.
 
#89 ·
I'm half of that out of shape retired couple with big dreams Paulo references. All our winches are powered and two speed. The Autopilot does 95+% of the driving. First two reefs are single line with low friction set up and third double but all lead to cockpit. Have Dutchman instead of leasurefurl. Boat is 46' and I can pick up all the sails ( I know because I just took them off).
After Cape Dories, Mariners, Tayanas, and PSCs from 24' to my present 46' I believe
1.bigger is better- more comfortable, better sleep and self care so better decisions. It's a joy to take a hot shower in the middle of a passage.
2.If too big when the systems fail you are truly screwed. Mid forties is just about right. All key systems need to run with no electricity. If systems fail they should not put vessel at risk. That's why I don't have a leisure furl or in mast furler.
3.Big= higher hull speed= safety
4. Storm systems should be fool proof which usually means oldtime e.g hanked stormjib, Jordan series drogue etc.
5.Tankage means safety. More fuel more range under power. Mine diesel is in 4 tanks=clean fuel without water regardless. Have 200g of water in 2 tanks=no dependence on watermaker.

You just can't do that stuff in less than mid forty footer. 2 can't run a boat much bigger then that when systems fail. If you live on the thing and you are poorly fed or too hot or too cold or constantly exposed to wind/weather on deck you will be miserable. That's when poor decision are made.
 
#90 ·
Bigger does not mean higher hull speed unless you are talking about motoring all the way. Sure a longer water line may mean higher hull speed in ideal conditions. Last time I was long distance cruising we averaged less than 10 knots of wind, rarely were the conditions optimal. Speed does not EVER equate to safety, safety does. On the other hand I cant even imagine what a hot shower on a boat is like. We all find a happy medium out there, you sound like you have found yours. The joy of sailing is the joy of sailing regardless of size :)
 
#97 ·
By the way Barefoot,

A photo just for you.... :D

And as we have on our web page......
Cruising should be entirely for pleasure, and when it ceases to be so it no longer makes sense. Of course those who want to beat out what little brains they have in a night thrash to windward should have a strong, stiff racing machine, a very expensive contraption, one which has sacrificed the best qualities of a cruiser. But the little yacht that can snuggle alongside of some river bank for the night and let its crew have their supper in peace while listening to the night calls of the whippoorwills will keep its crew much more contented. They will be particularly happy and contented when the evening rain patters on the deck and the coal-burning stove becomes the center of attraction. Then if you can lie back in a comfortable place to read, or spend the evening in pleasant contemplation of the next day's run, well, then you can say "This is really cruising."

L Francis Herreshoff

Greg
 

Attachments

#92 ·
Paulo approached this purely in terms of basic physics and he is correct. I tried to approach this question in human terms as there is no question a well made small boat such as a BBC at 28' or a Westsail at 32' can survive terrible things. However, it seems death of boats and souls aboard more commonly reflect poor decisions by exhausted terrified crew so I approached this in human terms.
Still think even with all the whiz bang gadgets there is too big and too small. Still think for most of us that ideal size is in the mid forties.
Would love to see a survey of cruising couples to see what size they end up after a few years. Limited crowd I know are in the low to mid forties.
 
#93 ·
Ok I'll chime in :) I have been sailing offshore since the mid 80's Im 45 and started off with a 65' boat. I now sail and liveaboard a 22' boat. I have about 75,000 offshore miles under my belt and have been through 2 hurricanes and countless other lame situations. I have delivered dozens of boats thousands of miles. I have never once equated size with safety be it 27' or 150'. I do admit my boat is very small but not at all uncomfortable or unsafe. I have owned 11 boats and find my current one to be the safest and most comfortable of them all. When I purchased my current boat I did it with the knowledge that it is the safest boat I could afford to pay cash for. If I had a baziilion dollars to spend the apple wouldn't fall far from the tree but I might be persuaded to drop 600 grand on a new BCC :)
 
#95 ·
:Dbarefoot gotta respect what you say.you are way more experienced then me even after 35+ yrs at it. ( work that 4 letter word). still different strokes for different folks. seriously doubt I could get my bride to live on your boat especially if she feeds me chili.:D
 
#96 ·
Greg gotta respect what you say too. that norsea sounds sweet. still suspect under power bigger boats with bigger tankage have longer range before fuel/water run out. Know we can go farther than you state. Agree size doesn't equate to structural integrety. Especially as forces multiple to some degree when loa increases linearly.
 
#98 ·
I eat like a king but I have to agree, getting a girl on a 22' boat is near impossible. My primary propulsion is a sculling oar but occasionally my outboard works, I have a range of 25 miles on those rare occasions. As far as experience is concerned I have to admit that half of my sea miles were as crew in training ie a glorified passenger.
One last though. This summer I was invited to stay for free at a local marina. Several of us were sitting in the cockpit playing music eating a huge meal cooked from scratch with great wine and candles everywhere. There was a 65' luxury yacht moored in front of us on its way back through Panama after a summer cruising in the Salish Sea. The owner of the boat came over to complement us on our life and admitted that he was envious of us. As he got up to leave several hours later he also complemented us on our wine selection and said it was the best he has ever had. We might not have big boats or all the bells and whistles but on Sunday night when everyone is rushing back to work we sail on. I cant think of a single complaint I have ever had when it comes to my boat, she is perfect...for me :)
 
#100 ·
Paulo, I respect your opinion but I firmly disagree, bigger is not always better or safer. You can run a thousand computer models but you will never be able to simulate real time cruising on a computer. In some cases a larger boat may be more comfortable and may be safer and in many it wont. This is fun to chat about but also pointless as there are millions of variables than have nothing to do with sea state when it comes to being safe at sea. :)
 
#102 · (Edited)
As an interesting exercise, let's take the 1998 Sydney Hobart Race:


Now let's get a list of boats (and their length) that started the race, and a list of those that finished, and list of those lost at sea or abandon.

I am working on the list, but if you have one readily available, please post.
 
#103 ·
Um I Am right now and have been for years, Actually I'm in the yard doing work for a bit but will be back at it again we only went up to 50 degrees latitude this year but will go further next year. Funny thing is all the big boats around here drop the sails when it blows over 30 we never do and the fact that you would suggest that we are unsafe based on nothing more than the length is pretty laughable. Fyi back when I sailed my tiny Flicka a boat half the size of my current boat we happily sailed in 20 plus foot seas and full blown gales on multiple occasions and never once did we fall victim to all the data your computer states. Remember Paulo if you want to be a sailor you have to go to sea. :)
 
#106 ·
Hi Jon nice to meet you :) I'm terribly sorry but in the real world of voyaging you are wrong on all accounts. First off if a boat isn't sea worthy enough to handle a little bad weather you shouldn't leave the bay period. You say sometimes which is a very important statement. People who are rushing to beat the dark usually are the ones who make the worst mistakes. Here is a real world example in 6-8 knots of wind on my last sail I raced a 45' ish high performance cruising boat that coasts about 700 grand. I left them in the dust and they eventually dropped sail motored past and asked if I had an electric engine. In the real world my boat is faster than the big ones. I sail rings around large boats in light air all the time. When its really blowing those same big boats drop all sail and motor, I'm not sure why but if they don't have a 2000 mile range their boats are useless for long distance voyaging. So like I said before there are some advantages to larger boats and some to smaller but a sea worthy boat has much more to do with design and construction, followed by seamanship than it does with size. In the real world with proper maintenance and a seasoned skipper there is simply no difference. Then again who do you think pirates will chase, me in my little 22' cutter or the guy in the Halberg Rassey?
 
#107 ·
Here is a real world example in 6-8 knots of wind on my last sail I raced a 45' ish high performance cruising boat that coasts about 700 grand. I left them in the dust and they eventually dropped sail motored past and asked if I had an electric engine. In the real world my boat is faster than the big ones. I sail rings around large boats in light air all the time.
Well, those other guys must have been really, REALLY crappy sailors... :)
 
#108 ·
But so am I :) I love big boats and small boats I love them all having happily sailed and owned the ugliest boat ever designed or built I have to say its sailing that I love more than the boats. Here is one more example just for fun. A good friend of mine was headed to Alaska on his 20' Flicka when he hit an uncharted reef. He sustained some damage to his boat and ego but a few hundred bucks in supplies and a few days in the yard and her was back on his way to Alaska.
Another friend just recently in his 52' half a million dollar cruising boat bit a charted reef and the boat went down in three minutes. He was one of the most respected and knowledgeable sailors in the region. So in this situation the smaller boat was safer. I don't know that I know anyone who has lost a boat at sea but I know many who have lost them to land :(
 
#111 ·
Sorry Paulo the only thing worse than my sailing ability is my writing :) What I was trying to imply is that most of the larger boats in my region motor everywhere. Here the wind is usually under 8 or over 25 if they cant sail in those conditions then a long term voyage is next to impossible. I'm not bashing big boats but supporting that little boats can and do successfully sail safely all over the world safely every day. My boat has a 7400 lb displacement and is considered to be very heavy for the size she is average off the wind in speed but very comfortable. Above the wind she sails like a dream.
 
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