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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Sailing, safety, & size
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Thread: Sailing, safety, & size Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-05-2013 08:27 PM
sneuman
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I am sorry and you are right. Take into consideration that English is not my first language and yes, even on the second time I misunderstood you. Yes you were making a question and it seemed to me a statement. I hope I have answered your question

Regards

Paulo
My apologies - I should have realized where the confusion originated. No hard feelings!
11-05-2013 07:21 PM
PCP
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Well, asking a question is not the same as drawing a conclusion. Might I suggest that you seem overly defensive?
I am sorry and you are right. Take into consideration that English is not my first language and yes, even on the second time I misunderstood you. Yes you were making a question and it seemed to me a statement. I hope I have answered your question

Regards

Paulo
11-05-2013 07:05 PM
sneuman
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Well, asking a question is not the same as drawing a conclusion. Might I suggest that you seem overly defensive?
11-05-2013 06:41 PM
PCP
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Paulo - read what I wrote. I assiduously avoided drawing any conclusions. In any case, a solo race boat and a solo cruising boat are two entirely different things. How many people go cruising in an Open 60?
Yes, I read, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post

But interestingly, the Pogo is crewed by at least four people, according to the video. Is it easily manageable by a cruising couple? Unless the answer is yes (and maybe it is), it is not a "safer" boat for a short-handed crew.
But you keep confusing things: Those boats are not Open 60 but 40class racers. The Pogo 12.50 is a performance cruiser with the same hull of a 40class racer but with a smaller rig and a good cruising interior even if a bit spartan. A Pogo 12.50 is a lot more easy to sail than a 40class racer (less power). A 40class racer is designed to be solo sailed by an experienced sailor.

The boat that I posted and that deserved your first comment regarding not being suited for short hand cruising is a a Pogo 12.50. The boat was elected this year as the 2013 European performance cruiser and Is a big sales success with a long waiting list.

There is at least a member of this forum that has a Pogo 12.50. He posted recently a video sailing his boat with a friend (he has a broken arm).

There is another member of this forum that is in France to buy one. If I am not mistaken he is American and will sail the boat back home.

The Pogo 12.50 is one of the few performance cruisers that is unsuitable to race (ratting too high to be competitive) and is used exclusively by its owners for cruising, I would say, fast cruising.

There are several cruising extensively. Here you have a Russian one

Pogo 12.50 Easy: TRANSAT

Regards

Paulo
11-05-2013 06:02 PM
sneuman
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
And what leads you to that conclusion?

The Pogo 12.50 has the same hull than a Pogo 40 that is a 40class racer and those boats are used to Ocean solo racing.

The Pogo 12.50 has a smaller rig that make it more easy to manage and a cruising interior.

40 class racers are also used on with a short crew in a circumnavigation race (duo sailed).

Some use 40class racers and Open 40's are used for extensive cruising and there is a guy that is circumnavigating, sometimes with his wife and 3 small kids (he solo sails the boat).



Here you can see him sailing the class40 with almost 50K.





Anasazi Racing: THE BOAT

Even Chinese use that type of boat to circumnavigate non stop



and he made it in 137 days, not bad.

So, what leads you to the conclusion that it is not a safe boat for a short handed crew?

Regards

Paulo
Paulo - read what I wrote. I assiduously avoided drawing any conclusions. In any case, a solo race boat and a solo cruising boat are two entirely different things. How many people go cruising in an Open 60?
11-05-2013 05:47 PM
PCP
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
But interestingly, the Pogo is crewed by at least four people, according to the video. Is it easily manageable by a cruising couple? Unless the answer is yes (and maybe it is), it is not a "safer" boat for a short-handed crew.
And what leads you to that conclusion?

The Pogo 12.50 has the same hull than a Pogo 40 that is a 40class racer and those boats are used to Ocean solo racing.

The Pogo 12.50 has a smaller rig that make it more easy to manage and a cruising interior.

40 class racers are also used on with a short crew in a circumnavigation race (duo sailed).

Some use 40class racers and Open 40's are used for extensive cruising and there is a guy that is circumnavigating, sometimes with his wife and 3 small kids (he solo sails the boat).



Here you can see him sailing the class40 with almost 50K.





Anasazi Racing: THE BOAT

Even Chinese use that type of boat to circumnavigate non stop



and he made it in 137 days, not bad.

So, what leads you to the conclusion that it is not a safe boat for a short handed crew?

Regards

Paulo
11-05-2013 05:19 PM
PCP
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Paulo,
Please post a link to more information on the RTW mini trip if you have. Always curious why someone did not try a single hand RTW with such a boat- I guess they did. Interested as I know someone that races the mini and is planning a non stop RTW trip, but his boat of choice is an S&S 34. Mini does seem like a much faster way to go.
Regards
11-05-2013 05:11 PM
sneuman
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Sorry but I do not agree.





As Jeff as said it is complicated. It has to do with RM but also with dynamic stability. RM has to do with weight and GZ (the arm). Bigger boats have a bigger GZ so they have an advantage and they are also bigger proportionally to the wave size, that's another advantage in what regards dynamic stability.

An older and heavier small design can partially compensate the disadvantage to a bigger modern design because the weight contributes to the RM and this one to stability, but modern designs with much lower CG (that contributes to a bigger arm as well as the bigger beam) end up to have a better overall stability.

Note that between two boats with the same stability (the same area under the RM curve), one bigger and lighter, the other smaller and heavier the lighter one will recover much more quickly from a knock down assuming they have similar RM at 90º. The force that is pulling the boat up is the same, but the force needed to put an heavy boat back in its feet is mutch more than the one needed to right a much lighter one

That is just an important factor, there are much more about it but generally we can say that a bigger boat is safer and certainly it is if it is the same type of boat. I am assuming well designed and built boats as are most of the boats built today.

Regarding the case you have pointed out I have no doubt that a Pogo 12.50 is much more seaworthy than the old Vertue by a big margin even if the displacement is not very different.

Regards

Paulo
But interestingly, the Pogo is crewed by at least four people, according to the video. Is it easily manageable by a cruising couple? Unless the answer is yes (and maybe it is), it is not a "safer" boat for a short-handed crew.
11-05-2013 05:08 PM
PCP
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Paulo,
...Jon Sanders ... did not break a mast on any boat he has circummnavigated on. Your are right he has done many 180 degree knock downs- but never broke a mast doing so. An example of the safety of the boats he sails.

Please correct your self. Jon Sanders never had to jury rig the S&S 34 he did his double non stop circummnavigation.

...
Yes you are right. That was another famous circumnavigator that broke the mast when rolled and end up its circumnavigation under Jury-Rig.

The S&S 34 boat was rolled 180º but he Sanders had a lot of luck and the mast stayed in on piece. Masts broke almost always on a 180º roll. It has not to do with the boat but with the masts. Other S&S 34 had broke the mast on less than a roll.

A roll is a very dangerous situation and even if the mast remains intact a lot of wrong things can happen, if we there is not a lot of luck. Take a look:



His bigger boat, used for the triple circumnavigation, notwithstanding have been caught in a huge storm and knock down several times, always resisted to be rolled. Never passed 110º and that on the worst knock down.

About Jon Sanders' Triple Circumnavigation of the World

Regards

Paulo
11-05-2013 04:19 PM
casey1999
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
But if I did have a young daughter, and I was gonna let her take off around the world in a production boat, it would definitely be modified to have the vee-berth ripped out, and replaced with a collision bulkhead and watertight door :-)
Jessicas boat did have the forward part of boat foam filled and sealed to act as collision compartment.
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