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Sailing, safety, & size

28K views 216 replies 33 participants last post by  sneuman 
#1 ·
Hi all,

Over the last week, I have read a number of posts, here and other places, regarding not feeling safe in open water in smaller boats. Now days that seems to mean less then 35 ft!

How many out there equate size to safety? Does it have anything to do with it? If you think size does provide safety, why? What's the logic? :confused:

Do you feel safer in your home country, state? Or is it just in the head of the person making the judgment? After cruising Mexico for years, we feel safer there than in the US! (Excluding ALL boarder towns!)

I am currently reading a book, The Terrible Loyalty, by Sandy Moss. Jill and I met Dave Chamberlain (who the book is about) in the California Delta when we were cruising there a few months back. It's about the voyage of a 20 ft. boat from the West Coast to Hawaii. A very good read!

Disclosure;
I am a geezer and remember when a 32 ft. boat was a BIG ocean going boat! And, Jill and I have cruised on boats from 132 Ft. to our current Nor'Sea 27. We prefer our 27 to all of them.

I have never understood how or why people equate size to safety. Witness the Titanic! ;)

Greg
 
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#183 · (Edited)
Well, that is hard to know I mean what kind of boat made more passages and that dos not mean it is the better boat for the job.

Regarding records I know one that will interest you: The smaller boat to have circumnavigated non stop: A slightly modified mini class racer, a very light boat with 21ft. A very fast boat for its size.
Typically a mini class racer weights about 650kg, however this one was reinforced and was therefore heavier some hundreds of kgs. It had also to carry all the food and provisions needed for the voyage and that would amount also to more some hundreds of kgs.

It is also the smallest boat to have circumnavigated by the three capes. The boat did not have an engine, but then, it sailed very well.



Regards

Paulo
 
#185 ·
Well, that is hard to know I mean what kind of boat made more passages and that dos not mean it is the better boat for the job.

Regarding records I know one that will interest you: The smaller boat to have circumnavigated non stop: A slightly modified mini class racer, a very light boat with 22ft. A very fast boat for its size.

It is also the smallest boat to have circumnavigated. The boat did not have an engine, but then, it sailed very well.

Regards

Paulo
An S&S 34 did an double (2 times around) non stop circumnavigation via 5 great capes and is the only boat I know of that has done that. A triple by the same man was done on a 40 footer (choose larger boat in order to carry the supplies required, ie food and water, for the trip).

These records stand today, even in the relm of Open 60 and other high tech boats.
 
#182 ·
Lots of pages here, so I am not sure if its been mentioned.

From what I understand, when you are thinking of size in relation to safety, it's often better to consider DISPLACEMENT rather than length. Many boats that are longer are actually smaller in terms of displacement.
 
#184 ·
#186 ·
Help me out. What are the "Five Great Capes"? I count 1) Horn, 2) Hope.... Is three and four Southwest and Southeast Capes? Where is the fifth one?

Getting back to the original thesis, the only parameter brought up was one of length. And as the good little engineers we are, we did a constant scaling for the other dimensional data... and we held constant build quality and design. I don't understand why it is hard to draw a simple conclusion from only one variable in our design model.

I do risk analysis and first thought, "heck, with the modeling tools I have, I ought to be able work up a mathematical model on sailboat safety". Wrong. Too many variables and too many subjective assumptions. I am modifying my assumption that safety is a continuum. It is more like a multidimensional shape living within a Monte Carlo analysis. One of you other engineers can play with this one.

I love the associations and allegories. Soyuz v. the Shuttle? Love it. Ignoring the fact that the two solve entirely different design problems (One use vs. reusable, 60 day “return to space” window; aerodynamic v. ballistic etc. ) That is like trying to compare a rescue pod v. and aircraft carrier. Another analogy to use could be “what is safer, a Cessna 150 or a Boeing 777"

But please continue, I’m loving this food fight.
 
#189 · (Edited)
Help me out. What are the "Five Great Capes"? I count 1) Horn, 2) Hope.... Is three and four Southwest and Southeast Capes? Where is the fifth one?

.... Another analogy to use could be "what is safer, a Cessna 150 or a Boeing 777"
Any airplane pilot will tell you the same : the 777 is safer by a long margin. The 777 can fly with no problem in weather conditions that would be deadly and impossible to a Cessna 150. But you are right, the analogy is similar to sailboats in what regards size.

Regarding the Capes I have no idea of what are the 5. What normally is refereed in a circumnavigations are the big three: The Cape of Good Hope , Cape Leeuwin, and Cape Horn.



Regards

Paulo
 
#193 ·
Casey raises two interesting issues.
As regards failed windlass. Use engine ( or sails ) to approach anchor and take strain off chain. Then use snuffer lines run back to primary winches to lay chain on side deck. Works regardless of boat size.
As regards size and docking- YOU GOT ME. No question a smaller boat is easier to handle. Had occasion that two very experienced professional captains after multiple attempts could not get my boat into position for the Newport show. Sail down was in moderate conditions ( ~25kts- full mail and solent). It took multiple line handlers (with lines run across docks by a skiff) and a push boat to get her in. Not something available to a mom and pop team. Have had occasion to just drop the hook outside and wait for wind to die before attempting docking in a slip. Find in any strong breeze even a good bow thruster may not be sufficient for single handed docking. Need security of a line handler on the pier. Never had same issue with my little PSC 34
 
#194 ·
Outbound,

I have heard about using the winches (sheet & halyard on the mast) for doing that should the windlass break down. I keep a couple of chain hooks handy. I have never had to do it myself as we can up anchor by hand if required. Heck, Jill was the one who hauled it for the first few years by herself, Till she got smarter and started sending me forward. :)

What I always wondered was how well it would work in sketchy weather when it's starting to kick up and ya got to get out, but it's not bad enough to drop the gear. I also wondered what cost in deck damage would be. Not the $$$, but the actual damage to the craft.:(

Greg
 
#195 · (Edited)
As said in prior posts windlass failure is very rare. In a catastrophe ( no juice) you do what you gotta do. I have all chain on my primary anchor . Although I guess I could use the spin halyard but the idea of having chain flying around seems scary. Rather have chain on deck so would use my snuffer lines. Find simple knot easier to work with then hooks. Motoring up to the anchor just have to lift the chain ( can do by hand) and can power over the anchor to break it free. Use primaries not mast winches as they are powered. Would use mast winches in absence of juice but might need the additional mechanical advantage of the bigger primaries. Probably wouldn't need the snuffer trick but for a little bit. Have 75lbs Rocna so anchor and chain will be a heavy lift. A little glass work gotta be better than losing the boat. It's rope not chain going to the winches with the portion of chain on deck under tension or fed into chain locker. Have snatch blocks on toes rails already for the spinnaker so can rig the snuffer line(s) through them quickly. Can't image structural damage from doing this that would threaten the boat.
 
#196 ·
As said in prior posts windlass failure is very rare. In a catastrophe ( no juice) you do what you gotta do. I have all chain on my primary anchor . Although I guess I could use the spin halyard but the idea of having chain flying around seems scary. Motoring up to the anchor just have to lift the chain ( can do by hand) and can power over the anchor to break it free. Probably wouldn't need the snuffer trick but for a little bit. A little glass work gotta be better than losing the boat.
Ohhhhh YES!! :D better some glass work than loosing a boat.

We also carry a lot of chain rode. The last 15 ~ 20 foot on our main is line so I can cut away if needed. I have 300 ft. chain on my primary. Then about 75 ft. chain followed by 300 ft line on my second.

I have had 2 windlass failures. One (the last one), I was at fault. The first I attribute to poor engineering by the manufacturer. I am sure that they felt it was for a smaller boat, so only needed to be up to weekend sailing. :( In both occasions it was a small inconvenience, But it still made for a change in plans.

Greg
 
#205 ·
Agree with above -never use the windlass to break free. Fortunate that we get to anchor in mud most often. Further agree wave action is usually sufficient. Always remember to use snuffers as never want to pull the windlass out of the deck. Sorry if I gave that misperception.
Sure wish this thread got back to Greg's apparent original intent- what size is best/safest for use by average cruising families and couples doing coastal, occasional passages like New England to US/BVIs and rare voyages like to Azores? At what size does size becomes a hindrance on a day to day basis?
 
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