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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
4 Minutes Ago 05:48 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
(PS - I bet the aft cabin in that Hunter is WAY more pimpin' than the aft cabin in that Morris.



If it's an older one, it might even have a bathtub!)

Yeah, but the tradeoff for that bordello is sacrificing the comfort and security of a cockpit like this..





...for the precarious perch on a flying bridge better suited to a Sea Ray... :-)

All those people in this freakin' thing should be thinking about putting on harnesses & tethers... Most definitely not a cockpit suited for offshore, IMHO...


16 Minutes Ago 05:36 PM
Don0190
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

[QUOTE=smackdaddy;2533185

Again, I definitely DO think a BeneJeneHunterLina - all things being equal - will not have the longevity of a more heavily built Hinckley.
[/QUOTE]


I have seen no evidence of that in my 8 years of sailing. By that I don't notice a bunch of 1970s Hinckleys etc. out on the water (and I'm in the Northeast).

I had a 1988 Cal-39 as my first boat. It was considered a well built boat in its' day. I was it's second owner and my purchase survey said it had been taken better care of than average (it was owned by a doctor). After years of working on the Cal and on my 2001 Hunter 410, my opinion is that the construction and assembly of that Cal was pretty crappy compared to my Hunter.

I bet the same could probably be said of comparing a 1988 Mercedes Benz to a 2001 Toyota Camry. Now if you compare a 1988 Mercedes to a 1988 Toyota the story is different.

Now I didn't really expect that and got the Hunter for other reasons, but that's my opinion.
46 Minutes Ago 05:06 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Easy Dono - it's a question - not a proclamation.

Again, I definitely DO think a BeneJeneHunterLina - all things being equal - will not have the longevity of a more heavily built Hinckley.

I just don't think that's as big a deal as most BWCs make it out to be.
52 Minutes Ago 04:59 PM
Don0190
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

So, at the end of the day, maybe the actual lesson here is that modern production boats have a "best-by" date of maybe 10 years or so before they start having problems that outweigh their value. In other words, maybe they are "disposable" to some degree.
Where do you come up with this stuff????? I have a 14 year old Hunter and the biggest hardest to do age problem I've had to do was replace the head hoses?

If anything the only lesson you are really dealing with is that an initial owner of a $500k boat may have taken better care of his boat that an initial owner of a a $200k boat. But that isn't because of the boat, it's because the $500k boat owner had more money to throw at it.

We all know that the condition of a boat is mostly due to the owner! It's kind of like the ability of a boat to be "bluewater" being the skipper.

You want a modern production boat to last 30 years, don't be the 5 owner of the boat!
1 Hour Ago 04:50 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Here are the 2 boats REINDEER finished behind... "Dowdy", indeed - I'm amazed they even let a slug like a Swan 45 sail in La Copa del Rey:









Ah, OK... essentially meaningless achievement, in other words... So, what Division are the Hunters sailing in, again? Come to think of it, does anyone know if a Latter Day Hunter has EVER done the Bermuda Race? :-)




Yeah, it would be interesting to know the deal on that one... The skipper has done the race several times before, TWICE winning the Phil Weld Doublehanded Trophy in his previous Morris 36.... You know, just the sort of boat your Hunter will beat to any destination, every time... :-)



Well, aside from the fact that a boat's "Level of Cool" may not necessarily be the best yardstick when assessing its suitability for sailing offshore, "COOLNESS" is a quality measured by the eye of the beholder... When comparing these 2 modern Raised Salons of roughly equivalent size, looks like we'll just have to disagree on this one...

:-))





You seem to be very focused on Hunter. There are several other fine production boat brands out there you know.

(PS - I bet the aft cabin in that Hunter is WAY more pimpin' than the aft cabin in that Morris.



If it's an older one, it might even have a bathtub!)
1 Hour Ago 04:20 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Been out cruising so just catching up. Would note.
Hunter now in next slip. It's having chainplates redone. Underlying bulkhead bad so that being redone and layers of glass added. Ports leaked bad and taken out to be rebedding They found house bad so more glass work. Laminate in galley lifted in spots and therefore removed. New laminate cut and being restored. Owner says next haul will replace all thru hulls.
Other side of me Bristol 54. Other that re caulking decks in Bristol condition. Both boats same age -mid 1990s. Bristol has circumnavigated twice. Hunter did thorny path other wise coastal out of Florida.
Just saying smack.
On next pier is bene 55 with pro captain. Owner at work back in the states. Captain is hot for my daughter so we have buddy boated some. Boat came here from SF by way of canal. Brand new as of 2014. Pro captain says already falling apart. They had a beat down the west coast but nothing extreme (30-40 squalls at times). Captain has nothing nice to say about bene other than its pretty and fast in the right conditions. Boat being hauled. He won't discuss other than saying not being done for bottom paint or zincs.
Yes there is a price point difference. Yes it's reflected in basic construction. Yes they age differently and this seems more apparent with more recent boats. Yes given tooling expense per boat is less and automated construction of large runs saves money you do get a lot boat with bhj. Still for beating the crap out of a boat year after year it's like a 20 year old Rolls compared to a twenty year old Chevy. The Cubans keep the Chevy going but the Brits past the Roller down generation to generation.
To me - this gets to the REAL heart of the matter...that is, longevity.

Let's start with the Hunter to Bristol comparison. Both are 20-year-old boats. The 20-year-old Hunter seems to be having real issues, the Bristol is apparently not.
Now, discounting the fact that this kind of anecdotal comparison really doesn't mean much, let's stick with it as a straight-across comparison.

The takeaway would be that IF YOU WANT A BOAT THAT YOU WANT TO OWN AND SAIL HARD FOR 20 YEARS - Hunter is not a great choice. Bristol, or Hinckley, or Morris, or IP, or whatever would be a much better choice.

Now, I honestly don't think anyone around here would argue that point. I wouldn't.

BUT, if owning and sailing a single boat for 20 years is NOT what you're after, things start to change pretty drastically when you begin to look at shorter-term value (as Chall is talking about above).

IF you want a boat that you're going to sail for maybe 5-7 years before moving to something "better" (like most people seem to do) - then the calculus is very different. Why pay a "20-year premium" for something you're not going to derive that value from?

In this case, buying a much, much newer production boat for roughly the same amount as a 20-year-old "bluewater boat" can start to make a lot more sense.

Now, this brings us to the Beneteau example - a new boat gone bad. I see these kinds of anecdotal stories all the time. New boats "falling apart in benign conditions". I'm not saying this guy's Bene isn't falling apart - but I AM saying that that doesn't seem to be a common scenario in the thousands of Benes that are out there plying blue water. They are not all "falling apart".

So, as usual, it just depends on what you want, and what you can afford, when you buy a boat.

If I have the choice between this 27-year-old Bristol 53 at $350K and this 1 year old Jeanneau SO 50 at $399K...I'll take the Jeanneau without hesitation.

So, at the end of the day, maybe the actual lesson here is that modern production boats have a "best-by" date of maybe 10 years or so before they start having problems that outweigh their value. In other words, maybe they are "disposable" to some degree?

I think that is an interesting conversation.
1 Hour Ago 04:10 PM
ianjoub
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post




I think they are both very good looking boats!
1 Hour Ago 04:03 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Smack
If it makes you feel better from the boat running captains don't hear nice stuff about Wally's - big day sailors- not meant for long term ocean sailing away from home. Or Oysters below mid seventies - they know the owners will never work on them and the owners want space so working on them is a bear apparently.
I love Valiants but one of the things that scared me off was how hard it would be to work on stuff inside that canoe stern. Access, quality of electrical panels , clean wire runs, engine install and access are also an issue. Good seaboats are thought out with the knowledge you may need to fix stuff at sea and things should be put together in such a manner that fixing stuff should be an infrequent event.
Ever look at the wiring etc. in a recent production boat Smack. Every think about life of the tanks and what would be needed to replace them. Ever look at that fancy bene interior after a few years. An really diligent owner can keep those boats up but from going over for drinks many look like they have been ridden hard and put away wet.
2 Hours Ago 03:42 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
There is silliness and extreme gesturing on both sides in the threads on CF and previously on here, but amongst it all Smack has raised an interesting question.

To elimate the silliness, let me state first that I believe and would like to think there is some general agreement that:

- All boats are compromises, there is no perfect boat.
-Hunters, Bavaria's, Beneteau's etc (the so called production boats) can and do cross oceans regularly without issue.
-Hallberg Rassy, Hylas, Morris, Oyster, Najad etc (so called 'bluewater' boats) are built at a higher price point and so are arguably 'better' and stronger built. The design choices on these boats are also generally more geared toward the Bluewater set( more tankage, passage friendly layouts, accessibility of systems. They may sail better or be easier to sail in the range of conditions in a circumnavigation, they would probably be more sea kindly.

So then my real world hypothetical question is that I want to purchase a 40-45ft monohull boat for a circumnavigation. Let's say my budget is about 225k with say 50-60k to update.( US $ is fine).

At this price I could buy a near new Bene/Hunter/Bavaria or Catalina or I could also buy a 1996 Hallberg Rassy 42f or a 1989 Stevens 47 or similar.

What is the 'safer' boat?

The newer lighter built boat would be 'ready to go' with some( decent) blue water and safety equipment and some change leftover but it would only ever be as strong as it is. Or the 20- 25 year old 'bluewater' boat with 25 year old chainplates, keel bolts, rudder etc.

Now with the Bluewater boats you could pretend that you get all this inspected and fixed before you go, but in the real world who does all of this? Can it be done satisfactorily in this budget, how do you know you haven't missed something?

As we have gone through the fun of a part refit with our current boat, I can say it sucks. It stops you sailing and makes you want to take up golf.

Having said that I would still for us lean towards buying a 1990's Hallberg Rassy. However I am starting to examine more closely why this is..........
I think you've nailed it. And outbound has hit on another aspect of this discussion that's even more pertinent...longevity.

I'll address his next...
2 Hours Ago 03:39 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Mine does
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